• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

What is the point of Tfl Rail for now?

Status
Not open for further replies.

greatkingrat

Established Member
Joined
20 Jan 2011
Messages
3,053
Branding is a lot more important than people realise. Look at how much Virgin get away with just because of their strong brand. It’s like a shield.

For long distance services maybe, but not for suburban commuter lines. People still use Southern despite all the bad publicity because they still need to get to work every day and there aren't any other alternatives.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

AlterEgo

Verified Rep - Wingin' It! Paul Lucas
Joined
30 Dec 2008
Messages
24,635
Location
LBK
And ‘Virgin’ is just about as ridiculous a name as you can think of, considering the true meaning of the word. At least TfL Rail is relevent.

It’s a ridiculous name but it’s one of the first companies people can name when it comes to British TOCs.
 

AlterEgo

Verified Rep - Wingin' It! Paul Lucas
Joined
30 Dec 2008
Messages
24,635
Location
LBK
For long distance services maybe, but not for suburban commuter lines. People still use Southern despite all the bad publicity because they still need to get to work every day and there aren't any other alternatives.

It is important. It’s not just about consumer choice. It’s about consumer perception and the bigger picture.

London Overground is a marvellously consistent brand for example, associated with good quality trains, staffed stations, and is nearly everything you’d want a suburban railway to be. That’s why, for example, LO wouldn’t be associated with the knackered old trains on the nascent Crossrail project.
 

bramling

Veteran Member
Joined
5 Mar 2012
Messages
18,801
Location
Hertfordshire / Teesdale
Especially when you're talking about the output of a £17B project. People will want to know where their money has gone, seeing the same Class 315 on the same route for two years would've been bound to raise some complaints.

They would find out soon enough where the money has gone - new trains, refurbished stations and quite a few miles of new railway. In the meantime it shouldn't be *that* hard to explain to people that the new trains are being built, the stations are being worked on, and the new railway is being constructed and fitted out, and it shouldn't be *that* hard for people to understand this.
 

jopsuk

Veteran Member
Joined
13 May 2008
Messages
12,773
It is important. It’s not just about consumer choice. It’s about consumer perception and the bigger picture.

London Overground is a marvellously consistent brand for example, associated with good quality trains, staffed stations, and is nearly everything you’d want a suburban railway to be. That’s why, for example, LO wouldn’t be associated with the knackered old trains on the nascent Crossrail project.
Erm, not quite. London Overground's Liverpool Street lines operation, started on the same day as TfL Rail, has a fleet currently consisting mainly of the exact same class as TfL Rail!
 

class387

Established Member
Joined
9 Oct 2015
Messages
1,544
For long distance services maybe, but not for suburban commuter lines. People still use Southern despite all the bad publicity because they still need to get to work every day and there aren't any other alternatives.
Yes. But they all hate using Southern. You don't want the public to hate your new multi-billion pound project, do you?
 

bramling

Veteran Member
Joined
5 Mar 2012
Messages
18,801
Location
Hertfordshire / Teesdale
Erm, have you ever dealt with the general public?

Right, so why does everything have to be geared up for the uninitiated?

It's quite a simple concept to understand that improvements take time to be delivered. An organisation with confidence in itself should quite easily be able to manage expectations.

If a few people get disappointed that new trains and a new railway don't appear overnight, who cares?
 

AlterEgo

Verified Rep - Wingin' It! Paul Lucas
Joined
30 Dec 2008
Messages
24,635
Location
LBK
Right, so why does everything have to be geared up for the uninitiated?

It's quite a simple concept to understand that improvements take time to be delivered. An organisation with confidence in itself should quite easily be able to manage expectations.

If a few people get disappointed that new trains and a new railway don't appear overnight, who cares?

So let me get this straight - are you saying brands aren’t important?
 

bramling

Veteran Member
Joined
5 Mar 2012
Messages
18,801
Location
Hertfordshire / Teesdale
So let me get this straight - are you saying brands aren’t important?

For something which is in the public sector - to a large extent yes.

By all means have the Crossrail or Elizabeth Line brand (personally I'm firmly in the camp which prefers the former), but let's not waste money on a pointless interim brand just to avoid disappointing a few people.
 

class387

Established Member
Joined
9 Oct 2015
Messages
1,544
For something which is in the public sector - to a large extent yes.

By all means have the Crossrail or Elizabeth Line brand (personally I'm firmly in the camp which prefers the former), but let's not waste money on a pointless interim brand just to avoid disappointing a few people.
How much money was 'wasted' on the TfL Rail brand anyway?
 

jon0844

Veteran Member
Joined
1 Feb 2009
Messages
29,484
Location
UK
London Overground took over lines before getting fancy new trains, but perhaps feedback from that (i.e. not good) prompted TfL to go with a temporary, seemingly made up in two seconds, name.

If it had been called Crossrail from day one, I am sure the route maps on platforms and on the trains could make it quite clear that it wasn't fully operational and that brand new trains were coming (the trains could have had pictures of them and an introduction date).

Remember when London Overground had 'temporary sign' written all over signs during the rebranding? They could have done that again.

But that isn't what happened, obviously.
 

Hadders

Veteran Member
Associate Staff
Senior Fares Advisor
Joined
27 Apr 2011
Messages
16,381
Not all suburban railways in Paris are branded RER.

Paris has the Metro which is the equivalent of London’s Underground.
The RER is equivalent to Crossrail or Thameslink.
Transilien is equivalent to inner suburban trains.
 

bramling

Veteran Member
Joined
5 Mar 2012
Messages
18,801
Location
Hertfordshire / Teesdale
London Overground took over lines before getting fancy new trains, but perhaps feedback from that (i.e. not good) prompted TfL to go with a temporary, seemingly made up in two seconds, name.

If it had been called Crossrail from day one, I am sure the route maps on platforms and on the trains could make it quite clear that it wasn't fully operational and that brand new trains were coming (the trains could have had pictures of them and an introduction date).

Remember when London Overground had 'temporary sign' written all over signs during the rebranding? They could have done that again.

But that isn't what happened, obviously.

I think this sums up the situation well. There's no right or wrong answer, although the way it's been done is not what I would have done - to me it seems a little silly.

Although of course in the grand scheme of things it's not worth losing too much sleep over, as in a couple of years time TFL Rail will be a distant memory, although never say it won't reappear in the future for some reason or another!
 

Jonny

Established Member
Joined
10 Feb 2011
Messages
2,574
I think the whole concept of London Overground/TfL Rail is basically a power-play. All it is, is TfL seeking to control heavy rail in London.
 

bramling

Veteran Member
Joined
5 Mar 2012
Messages
18,801
Location
Hertfordshire / Teesdale
I think the whole concept of London Overground/TfL Rail is basically a power-play. All it is, is TfL seeking to control heavy rail in London.

Agreed.

More power for individuals within TFL, and ultimately for the mayor. National rail is, er, national rail - not somewhere's rail. The mayor has zero accountability to people outside London, so should be as far away from rail services which are in the national interest.

Rail is already subject to more than its fair share of often damaging political football. It can well do without being part of the mayoral circus too.
 

Chris M

Member
Joined
4 Feb 2012
Messages
1,060
Location
London E14
I think the whole concept of London Overground/TfL Rail is basically a power-play. All it is, is TfL seeking to control heavy rail in London.
Agreed.

More power for individuals within TFL, and ultimately for the mayor. National rail is, er, national rail - not somewhere's rail. The mayor has zero accountability to people outside London, so should be as far away from rail services which are in the national interest.

Rail is already subject to more than its fair share of often damaging political football. It can well do without being part of the mayoral circus too.

Except the services that TfL control are not national railway. They are local urban and suburban services almost entirely within the area in which the mayor is accountable - exactly the same as the London Underground and DLR. Exactly the same way that there is local government and/or PTE involvement in local services around Leeds, Liverpool, Glasgow, Newcastle, etc.

From the perspective of a passenger, the improvements to the service brought about by this local involvement in local services is unquestionably a Good Thing.

Now if TfL were running an intercity franchise (something they explicitly have no interest in doing) then your arguments might carry some weight, but as they are it just feels like objecting tohe concept because you don't like the name.
 

bramling

Veteran Member
Joined
5 Mar 2012
Messages
18,801
Location
Hertfordshire / Teesdale
Except the services that TfL control are not national railway. They are local urban and suburban services almost entirely within the area in which the mayor is accountable - exactly the same as the London Underground and DLR. Exactly the same way that there is local government and/or PTE involvement in local services around Leeds, Liverpool, Glasgow, Newcastle, etc.

From the perspective of a passenger, the improvements to the service brought about by this local involvement in local services is unquestionably a Good Thing.

Now if TfL were running an intercity franchise (something they explicitly have no interest in doing) then your arguments might carry some weight, but as they are it just feels like objecting tohe concept because you don't like the name.

How many national rail services in London run on completely self-contained tracks? In other words, they don't in any way interact with rail services which run outside the London area.

The only examples which readily spring to mind are the North London Line and Barking-Gospel Oak, and that's only if we exclude freight.

We have a silly split on the West Anglia side, with half of the inner-suburban service being run by LO, but the rest not. Inefficient use of trains and inefficient use of crews, and the LO part doesn't feel accountable to those who use it from outside the London area.

If we take something like the Great Northern inner suburban services, a route Mike Brown and his cronies have been said to have in their sights, virtually every service terminates well outside London. This is simply not democratically accountable, either to users of the services concerned, or for other users who share the same lines - and whose areas aren't already well served by other forms of public transport like LU or buses.

As someone who lives outside London, I don't wish to be involved with things like Sadiq Khan's re-election gimmick policy of the fares freeze. It's already damaging LU, and we don't need such politics on national rail too.
 

jon0844

Veteran Member
Joined
1 Feb 2009
Messages
29,484
Location
UK
It's perhaps ironic that for years (way back to around 2006 when FCC first spoke of its relationship with TfL) I have spoken of the Wagn/FCC/GN inner suburbans being taken over by TfL. More recently we've seen documents speaking of a takeover at the next franchise change.

But as we get closer, it does seem quite possible that we're now further than ever away from it happening due to budget constraints and a chance of view from the DfT.
 

bramling

Veteran Member
Joined
5 Mar 2012
Messages
18,801
Location
Hertfordshire / Teesdale
It's perhaps ironic that for years (way back to around 2006 when FCC first spoke of its relationship with TfL) I have spoken of the Wagn/FCC/GN inner suburbans being taken over by TfL. More recently we've seen documents speaking of a takeover at the next franchise change.

But as we get closer, it does seem quite possible that we're now further than ever away from it happening due to budget constraints and a chance of view from the DfT.

And a good thing that is too.

I can't see what benefits TFL would bring. Most of the stations are now staffed anyway, at least for the time being, and are in a reasonable state of repair. They haven't got much hope of enhancing the service as there simply isn't the track capacity available. New trains are already on order. So we're down to having the line on the Tube Map and new staff uniforms. The trade-off is a load of inefficiency from having to split the staffing down the middle. Then what do we do with the stations which would still be served by GN - for example would Welwyn Garden City and Hatfield be operated by GN, Welwyn Green and Brookmans Park by LO, and Potters Bar again by GN? Would Welwyn Garden City have posters bearing the name of Sadiq Khan even though locals can't have a say in electing or de-electing him? What about a user from Peterborough whose service may be affected by LO timetables sharing the same tracks?
 

Chris M

Member
Joined
4 Feb 2012
Messages
1,060
Location
London E14
I don't understand why there is this horror at the lack of accountability for people outside London from TfL services? You have more accountability over those services (albeit indeirectly) than you do with services operated by a private sector TOC.

The mayor of London has no authority to do anything to fares outside Greater London (except for the Underground) and is not allowed to create a "step-change" situation at boundary stations - the fare from either side of the arbitrary line must be broadly similar.

As for services interacting with long-distance services, this does happen, but do you have any evidence that this interaction has disadvantaged the long distance trains?
The split in West Anglia inner suburban services is not ideal, but TfL wanted to run all of them (at least partly for the efficiency reasons you state) but this was refused.
 

glbotu

Member
Joined
8 Apr 2012
Messages
644
Location
Oxford
It has to be noted that public perception is a huge deal for tfl and I can't make that point strongly enough. It's why they spend an awful lot of money on things like staffed stations, cleaning, aggressive graffiti removal, fast and varied information and, above all else, branding. One of the huge changes in how londoners have perceived the tube has nothing to do with the technical improvements in running the railways under their control, but in how they present all that information to the public.

The reasoning behind this is that by making tfl's services appear more attractive people will get out of their cars and onto trains, buses etc. It's just more economically valuable for London for that to be true.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top