What is "the vicinity of the driving cab"?

[357]

Hi all,

Have had a quick look at the rule book and can't find anything about this, but I hardly looked in depth.

Following a recent occurrence, the subject came up about leaving the driving cab.

As any driver would know - you call the signaller if you're leaving the vicinity of the driving cab, however quite what is defined as "vicinity" isn't clarified anywhere that we can find.

Our own TOC documents say to contact the signaller if leaving the "vicinity" of the cab"

I myself have got out to inspect the front of my train many times after hitting animals or hearing a noise, or at stations with a bin placed at the stopping point I've put my wrappers, empty cans etc in there - but not called the signaller because I considered myself to still be in the vicinity of the cab (I could hear the GSMR or a passenger alarm if there was one).

My TOC has now said that you need to call the signaller as soon as your legs are out of the cab. This means that even I'm stepping onto the platform to look back and close the doors, I'd need to call the signaller.

Has anyone else got a more specific rule at their own TOC or had experience of this issue before?

 

[380101]

My TOC has now said that you need to call the signaller as soon as your legs are out of the cab. This means that even I'm stepping onto the platform to look back and close the doors, I'd need to call the signaller.

I can see that policy lasting less than a day if every driver complies with it to the letter and calls the signaller at every station before stepping onto the platform to check doors!

Signallers will be extremely p*ssed off answering the GSM-R for a non-event every few minutes and their management will end up getting involved and raising complaints with said TOC ops department. Another poorly thought out policy by managers who have forgotten what it's like in the front line and making up policies to attempt to justify their existence.

 

[XIX7007177]

Out of earshot of the GSMR ringing or contact signaller message coming through I’d say.

 

[Surreytraveller]

The Signallers need to report it every time it happens to the TOC, and the TOC then needs to ring the on call driver manager everytime a signaller reports it. It'll soon stop

 

[godfreycomplex]

My TOC has now said that you need to call the signaller as soon as your legs are out of the cab. This means that even I'm stepping onto the platform to look back and close the doors, I'd need to call the signaller.

As a signaller can confirm this isn’t the case (and makes no sense as a policy)

As others have said, I would suggest vicinity means within earshot of the GSM-R

 

[greatkingrat]

What happens if the GSMR isn't working? You can't leave the cab to use the SPT without contacting the signaller, and you can't contact the signaller without using the SPT!

 

[whoosh]

My TOC has now said that you need to call the signaller as soon as your legs are out of the cab. This means that even I'm stepping onto the platform to look back and close the doors, I'd need to call the signaller.

Obviously an edict to follow to the letter in the future on a 'minimum service during strikes day'!

 

[O L Leigh]

These people deserve to be buried under the paperwork this will generate.

 

[Efini92]

What happens if the GSMR isn't working? You can't leave the cab to use the SPT without contacting the signaller, and you can't contact the signaller without using the SPT!

You’ve created the leaving the cab paradox

 

[dctraindriver]

What happens if the GSMR isn't working? You can't leave the cab to use the SPT without contacting the signaller, and you can't contact the signaller without using the SPT!

Beautifully put. It’s like the chicken and egg question….

 

[the sniper]

What happens if the GSMR isn't working? You can't leave the cab to use the SPT without contacting the signaller, and you can't contact the signaller without using the SPT!

Send the Guard!

 

[Egg Centric]

I suggest you go ahead with it precisely as they asked - I was amazed at the awful way the management were speaking to drivers according to the examples in the RAIB report of the incident you're referring to. **** em.

 

[43066]

These people deserve to be buried under the paperwork this will generate.

This thread perfectly demonstrates the accuracy of a post made in another thread:

Dare I say it, some of this is down to elements of the industry management being poorly educated and with limited life experience (not intended necessarily as a dig, just a statement of reality).

Never a truer word spoken.

 

[driver9000]

What happens if the GSMR isn't working? You can't leave the cab to use the SPT without contacting the signaller, and you can't contact the signaller without using the SPT!

Sit there and let them stop a train coming in the opposite direction to let you know its safe to climb down.

 

[357]

What happens if the GSMR isn't working? You can't leave the cab to use the SPT without contacting the signaller, and you can't contact the signaller without using the SPT!

I would say I'd use my own mobile. However, I can't turn it on within the cab, if I were in the middle of nowhere I'd open the cab door and stand in the passenger saloon...


...However now, I'd need permission to leave the cab, to turn my phone on, to contact the signaller

 

[martin2345uk]

As an aside, do your TOC not issues work mobile phones?

 

[357]

As an aside, do your TOC not issues work mobile phones?

Nope

 

[philthetube]

Hi all,

Have had a quick look at the rule book and can't find anything about this, but I hardly looked in depth.

Following a recent occurrence, the subject came up about leaving the driving cab.

As any driver would know - you call the signaller if you're leaving the vicinity of the driving cab, however quite what is defined as "vicinity" isn't clarified anywhere that we can find.

Our own TOC documents say to contact the signaller if leaving the "vicinity" of the cab"

I myself have got out to inspect the front of my train many times after hitting animals or hearing a noise, or at stations with a bin placed at the stopping point I've put my wrappers, empty cans etc in there - but not called the signaller because I considered myself to still be in the vicinity of the cab (I could hear the GSMR or a passenger alarm if there was one).

My TOC has now said that you need to call the signaller as soon as your legs are out of the cab. This means that even I'm stepping onto the platform to look back and close the doors, I'd need to call the signaller.

Has anyone else got a more specific rule at their own TOC or had experience of this issue before?

Typical manager trying to qualify their existence, the best response with all rules is to do as you are told, cover your botty.

 

[DavyCrocket]

Surely whenever leaving the cab for an out of course situation, such as a passenger alarm operation, someone should be told. Both from a service point of view and safety of staff perspective. I know of drivers that have not done so and have then been in a bad situation and no one knew about it.

Also, a driver left the cab to deal with some people, didn’t take their handheld radio (I understand many/all/most Tocs don’t have them that are multi channel/pabx and cab contact control)? And was GBHd. The people in the train could see what was happening and operated the alarm, which of course went to the cab where the driver wasn’t.

 

[43066]

Surely whenever leaving the cab for an out of course situation, such as a passenger alarm operation, someone should be told.

I don’t think anyone is suggesting otherwise? What people are criticising is:

My TOC has now said that you need to call the signaller as soon as your legs are out of the cab. This means that even I'm stepping onto the platform to look back and close the doors, I'd need to call the signaller.

Which is clearly utterly ludicrous.

 

[172007]

So call the signaller to say you are leaving the cab to change ends. Then setup and call back to say you are now in the cab the other end. Makes fault finding a pain in the ass to calling the signaller just to go to a body end cupboard to press and engine reset button.

 

[cin88]

So call the signaller to say you are leaving the cab to change ends. Then setup and call back to say you are now in the cab the other end. Makes fault finding a pain in the ass to calling the signaller just to go to a body end cupboard to press and engine reset button.

I know a few signallers that would gleefully play along by making calls to control every time as well

Managers that make up these instructions really do have absolutely nothing better to do with their time.

 

[DavyCrocket]

I don’t think anyone is suggesting otherwise? What people are criticising is:



Which is clearly utterly ludicrous.

Yes that is silly so long as you are near to the cab so can be found quickly.

This whole process will just be used to blame the individual staff member that didn’t do it, because it’s ludicrous

 

[ComUtoR]

What triggered the change in policy ?

 

[TreacleMiller]

You're literally outside the train, potentially in harms way if you're trackside and haven't spoken to them.

Vicinity to me is in the cab, but the out of the seat. That being said I'm not telling the signaller if I'm at the cab door walking around on a 10min timed stop. Earshot of the GSMR to me sounds OK.

 

[185]

At TPE the toilet's CET tank is in the vicinity of the cab on a 185, as has been evident after several fractured some years ago. Eww.

But seriously, what a silly phrase. Something is either in the cab, or not. More ambiguity from persons behind desks.

Edit: in the cab, or out? Or both?

Schrödinger's Cab.

 

[XAM2175]

What triggered the change in policy ?

The timing relative to the RAIB publishing their report on the fatality at West Worthing in February last year is perhaps telling.

 

[baz962]

I found out the answer to the chicken and egg question

Beautifully put. It’s like the chicken and egg question….

 

[PupCuff]

It's fairly likely that the reasoning behind the new instruction is perfectly sound, as it was intended.

However, it wouldn't be the first occasion when someone has put out a notice, but because of their, how should we put it diplomatically, less than competent use of written English, has put something out which is just plain incorrect. I've seen cases before now where one single word (even in one case a single letter!) put in - or missing from - a notice or procedure in error has changed the whole meaning of the instruction and resulted in confusion.

It seems reasonably likely as it has been described that something similar has occurred on this occasion too. If enough people drop your friendly safety or operations standards team an email they'll be able to clarify what was intended.

 

[Howardh]

When the driver and guard came to assist me out of the toilet I was locked in, would he have contacted control first as he would be well out of the cab, and also stationary in the station for a few mins longer than anticipated?