What is wrong with CrossCountry?

[ValleyLines142]

XC aren't all bad in fairness. Whenever I make a journey up north I always aim for the 1125 Plymouth to Dundee, which is booked for eight coaches (a pair of 220s) between Bristol and Newcastle (similarly the 1306 Edinburgh to Plymouth return). There's plenty of room available and also the leading coach is attached at Bristol so those getting on at Temple Meads have the first choice of decent seats (where not reserved!)

 

[SGS]

No-one's mentioned the price of the advance tickets yet!

As for the Voyagers, I think they might be a difficult problem to solve. I've often daydreamed about gutting and re-seating them, with more legroom, better seats, and a higher proportion of table seats. The trouble with that is, it would involve reducing the amount of seats per coach, on a train which often only has three standard class coaches. Then I wonder if new stock could be built for XC and the Voyagers be cascaded. But where would the Voyagers go that would not waste their 125mph capability? On balance, I think it'll just have to be wasted and the Voyagers be cascaded onto, ooooh, I dunno, Waterloo-Exeter, Liverpool-Norwich, or long-distance Scottish routes. It's sad that the Scots will have to suffer them, but unfortunately they've simply got to be taken off routes that I use. Ahem.

SGS.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/stuartstransport

 

[90019]

No-one's mentioned the price of the advance tickets yet!

If they were cheaper, the trains would be busier.

 

[musicking1306]

No-one's mentioned the price of the advance tickets yet!

As for the Voyagers, I think they might be a difficult problem to solve. I've often daydreamed about gutting and re-seating them, with more legroom, better seats, and a higher proportion of table seats. The trouble with that is, it would involve reducing the amount of seats per coach, on a train which often only has three standard class coaches. Then I wonder if new stock could be built for XC and the Voyagers be cascaded. But where would the Voyagers go that would not waste their 125mph capability? On balance, I think it'll just have to be wasted and the Voyagers be cascaded onto, ooooh, I dunno, Waterloo-Exeter, Liverpool-Norwich, or long-distance Scottish routes. It's sad that the Scots will have to suffer them, but unfortunately they've simply got to be taken off routes that I use. Ahem.

SGS.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/stuartstransport

Completely agree, Maybe when the FGW/EMT HST's get displaced by the new IEP trains then more HST's on the XC routes would increase capacity and cascade the 22x.

 

[starrymarkb]

No-one's mentioned the price of the advance tickets yet!

Yep, they are often only little cheaper then an Off Peak... or Worse!

My friends were looking at a 3 day trip to Dundee (they'd rather not fly if possible) - An off peak return for £195 each with XC - so they are now looking at Flybe and Easyjet via Glasgow (£60 return) or the overnight NatEx

Advance fares were quoted at £288 each apart from one train which got it down to £192 each... a huge £3 saving over the flexible Off Peak fare

 

[pinguini]

Coventry - Manchester return fare, set by XC. £88

Rugby - Manchester return fare (valid via Coventry), set by Virgin Trains. £46.60

**Yes, I have compared an SOR to an SVR fare, however the SVR fare due to the nature of its restriction code is valid at any time**

 

[asylumxl]

What's wrong with CrossCountry? I said it in the Pendolino thread and I'll say it again here.

Enthusiasts just like to complain!

Particularly, they have a tendency to exaggerate and to twist things. Can't let the facts get in the way afterall..

I say we put 47s and MK2s back on XC services. When the 47 inevitably breaks down after a few miles I'm sure the very same people will quickly take to the forum to complain about the delays!

 

[JamesRowden]

No-one's mentioned the price of the advance tickets yet!

As for the Voyagers, I think they might be a difficult problem to solve. I've often daydreamed about gutting and re-seating them, with more legroom, better seats, and a higher proportion of table seats. The trouble with that is, it would involve reducing the amount of seats per coach, on a train which often only has three standard class coaches. Then I wonder if new stock could be built for XC and the Voyagers be cascaded. But where would the Voyagers go that would not waste their 125mph capability? On balance, I think it'll just have to be wasted and the Voyagers be cascaded onto, ooooh, I dunno, Waterloo-Exeter, Liverpool-Norwich, or long-distance Scottish routes. It's sad that the Scots will have to suffer them, but unfortunately they've simply got to be taken off routes that I use. Ahem.

SGS.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/stuartstransport

I think that IEP might be ordered for the Reading Cross Country services. The displaced Voyagers might then be used to replace the HSTs and legthern the Bristol Cross Country services.

 

[gordonthemoron]

Milton Keynes-Leeds via Manchester £80.80 (Virgin & TPE)
Milton Keynes-Leeds via Derby £115 (LM & XC) however this ticket is also valid via London using Virgin/LM & East Coast which may take longer but is on nicer trains

Both Off Peak Returns

 

[transmanche]

Particularly, they have a tendency to exaggerate and to twist things. Can't let the facts get in the way afterall..

I say we put 47s and MK2s back on XC services. When the 47 inevitably breaks down after a few miles I'm sure the very same people will quickly take to the forum to complain about the delays!

Yes, the 'good old days' of 47s and mkIIs. Such as 25 years ago, when a Newcastle-Southampton journey took two hours longer than it does today!

1988 dep NCL 06:57 arr SOU 14:47 - 7 hrs 50 mins
2013 dep NCL 07:25 arr SOU 13:17 - 5 hrs 52 mins

 

[johntea]

I personally found their customer service, in particular their delay repay process to be a bit crap.

Submitted a claim online, promised a response within 10 working days, nothing.

A month later my vouchers arrive in the post, no communication still.

I wasn't in a rush particularly for them but if I do the same process with East Coast the vouchers are usually at my door within 10 days never mind a response!

 

[Bill EWS]

I use XC quite often too and from Scotland. My main complaint of them is the hard seats, lack of tables and the next to no window space in some seating. Personally I don't think DMU's should be on such long distance trains, the uncomfortablel seats and engine vibration is annoying. However, I can't criticise them for overall speed. They accelarate extremely well and keep that up as long as signaling and track speed allows.

In the case of the Reading-Newcastle service they are allowed a lot of slack between main stations and in general always reach Newcastle within time. This doesn't seem to be so manageable in the up direction as I have missed my connection at Oxford quite a few times and always I usually by Banbury it's in my mind as to whether I am going to catch it or not.

I had my first trip on a 222 from Derby to Loughborough a few weeks a. Visually they appear to look a bit wider, which may simply be due to he material and colour scheme in use! I was surprised to find the seating had better comfort and spacing but other than that they seemed to suffer most of the same problems as the 220's. A DMU is a DMU, no matter how you doll it up.

Long distance XC services deserve better trains than this and definitely require more seating. I expect too, one day they may actually get their reservation indicators to work! Every trip I have made over the last year has seen them blank for much of the journey. Both on the Newcastle and Wolverhampton to Edinburgh services.

It will be interesting to see if electrification brings any real improvement to these problems.

 

[1e10]

No-one's mentioned the price of the advance tickets yet!

As for the Voyagers, I think they might be a difficult problem to solve. I've often daydreamed about gutting and re-seating them, with more legroom, better seats, and a higher proportion of table seats. The trouble with that is, it would involve reducing the amount of seats per coach, on a train which often only has three standard class coaches. Then I wonder if new stock could be built for XC and the Voyagers be cascaded. But where would the Voyagers go that would not waste their 125mph capability? On balance, I think it'll just have to be wasted and the Voyagers be cascaded onto, ooooh, I dunno, Waterloo-Exeter, Liverpool-Norwich, or long-distance Scottish routes. It's sad that the Scots will have to suffer them, but unfortunately they've simply got to be taken off routes that I use. Ahem.

SGS.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/stuartstransport

Their ticket prices do seem expensive. I can often get cheaper advance tickets ith FGW covering twice the distance of a more expensive advance ticket for a journey with XC.

I think that IEP might be ordered for the Reading Cross Country services. The displaced Voyagers might then be used to replace the HSTs and legthern the Bristol Cross Country services.

What does IEP stand for?

 

[Manchester77]

Intercity Express Program - replacement trains for the HSTs

 

[maniacmartin]

IEP = Increasingly Expensive Programme.

You can read all about it on Wikipedia or the Government's website

 

[yorkie]

If anyone wishes to continue the discussion on DMUs, this has been split into a thread on DMUs in Traction & Rolling Stock.

Back to discussing XC (who, incidentally, I very rarely travel with, due to the poor quality of their Voyager trains, and their insane train fares. Even York-Bristol is cheaper via London if I book far enough in Advance!)

 

[HSTEd]

CrossCountry typifies the desired function of the privatised railway.
Minimum service, chronic overcrowding and thus minimum subsidy required.

 

[transmanche]

Back to discussing XC (who, incidentally, I very rarely travel with, due to the poor quality of their Voyager trains, and their insane train fares. Even York-Bristol is cheaper via London if I book far enough in Advance!)

I guess this is the downside to demand-led pricing. XC does not have enough capacity; the logical solution being to add extra carriages to their trains. But irrespective of whatever the TOC may or may not want - this does not appear to be possible.

I'm sure additional carriages can be built; either motor carriages (with a suitable alternative and compatible engine) or trailers (as some consider the 22x family to be overpowered anyway) - or even the now abandoned plans for electric carriages. And I'd guarantee there would be the passengers to fill them.

But it doesn't appear that this is something that which can be negotiated commercially between manufacturer, ROSCO and TOC - it can only happen at the whim of the DfT.

 

[cjmillsnun]

XCs HSTs are leased on a pay to use basis whereas the Voyagers are leased in the traditional way therefore they will use voyagers more if they can.

AXC is far better than VXC though, it's much more reliable. However VXC were in some ways better than the old ICXC services

Wash your mouth out.

I was a regular user of ICXC and VXC and saw VT run down the old ICXC stock.

Yes ICXC's main fleet was 47/8s and Mk2s but they did the job and on the whole were clean and kept to time. Under ICXC the stock was relatively reliable. Within 6 months of VT taking over there were issues.

And yes I know the timetable was slower. But who cares. You sat in comfort at a table and the coaches didn't smell like a blocked toilet. Oh yes and if I wanted food, I didn't have to wait for a trolley that had a range of cold sandwiches, I could go to the buffet car and get hot food.

The idea for voyagers was flawed. They were too small even for a clock face service. Another 2 coaches and they would've worked (although you still have the smell issue)

 

[ainsworth74]

Minimum service, chronic overcrowding and thus minimum subsidy required.

I thought they were losing money hand over fist?

 

[Mojo]

In terms of on board catering then I don't think XC are that bad in comparison to what was there before. It was Virgin that cut the opening hours of the on board shop to close at around 20.00; not XC. First class offering is much improved from the days of Virgin with sandwiches and/or microwaved small meals replacing the much maligned Snack box. The hours which there is a dedicated First class host has also improved; with the First class host typically being available for more of their network.

There are also more trolleys available on the Turbostar operated routes, with complimentary hot drinks for First class customers on these services.

 

[WestCoast]

What's wrong with CrossCountry? Well, firstly it's got to be one of the most challenging franchises to run. Long distance services which are interworked with an abundance of local/regional services, a fleet with inadequate capacity and a diverse passenger profile of short-distance commuters, medium-distance daytrippers and longer distance travellers.

With those credentials, anyone looking for a top quality InterCity-style service is going to be disappointed. CrossCountry's fares are also perceived to be high, but why is that surprising when they don't have to stimulate off-peak demand (unlike say Virgin/EC or SE) because they already have enough passengers?

For what it's worth, I think XC do a reasonable job with the resources they have. They are never going to be a 5* TOC (who is?), but most of the issues passengers on their network face today seem to stem from previous decisions made by the SRA, DfT, Virgin or whoever. Personally, I think we'd see the same issues on the XC network regardless of the franchisee. Don't forget, Chiltern, an enthusiasts favourite is under the same ownership as XC, which is seemingly loathed by many.

 

[HSTEd]

I thought they were losing money hand over fist?

Yes, but this is the way they lose the least money.

Sure we could put ten coach trains on all services or something and solve the capacity issues.... but XC would loose even more money.
All that can save the franchise really is the Electric spine allowing Manchester-South Coast services to convert to electric traction so we can get some Class 444 type 110mph jobs.

 

[Manchester77]

Yes ICXC's main fleet was 47/8s and Mk2s but they did the job and on the whole were clean and kept to time. Under ICXC the stock was relatively reliable. Within 6 months of VT taking over there were issues.

And yes I know the timetable was slower. But who cares. You sat in comfort at a table and the coaches didn't smell like a blocked toilet. Oh yes and if I wanted food, I didn't have to wait for a trolley that had a range of cold sandwiches, I could go to the buffet car and get hot food.

- The 47s may well have been fine but I can remember one too many warm days where I was stuck in a mark II when the air conditioning had failed and staff had to give out cold water!
- Secondly the frequencies are far better than they were. It may not serve as many places but in some aspects this has been a good thing. It's aloud XCs limited rolling stock to be concentrated on core services which are more frequent and reliable.
- In this day and age there are few people I see on the train who haven't brought their own food onboard. I don't know if its limited to my area but even on services with catering available in first and standard there aren't many in standard who have any.
- I care. As much as I love the train I'd rather be with my family. The vast majority of the public probably have this same outlook.

 

[Old Yard Dog]

What's wrong with CrossCountry?

Its a great service if you want to go from Stoke to Bournemouth but XC has given up on the rest of the country.

 

[route:oxford]

I was a regular user of ICXC and VXC and saw VT run down the old ICXC stock.

Yes ICXC's main fleet was 47/8s and Mk2s but they did the job and on the whole were clean and kept to time. Under ICXC the stock was relatively reliable. Within 6 months of VT taking over there were issues.

And yes I know the timetable was slower. But who cares. You sat in comfort at a table and the coaches didn't smell like a blocked toilet. Oh yes and if I wanted food, I didn't have to wait for a trolley that had a range of cold sandwiches, I could go to the buffet car and get hot food.

It was dreadful, even in BR ICXC days, and Sunday services were a joke.

There are benefits to immaculately maintained Mk2s and a tuned to perfection 47. That rarely happened though and the normal was elderly coaches with stupid "winged" seats that were designed for shorties, long layovers in Birmingham and locked out of use coaches.

I also really do care about the timetable speed. From the moment the service was Voyagerised and timetable improved the number of domestic flights I took dropped like a stone.

Sometimes enthusiasts forget that they aren't *real* passengers. The kind that want to turn up for a service, grab something from M&S at the station, plug in their tablet/mobile charger and reach their destination on time.

 

[Polarbear]

The Cross Country operation tries to be all things to all people & doesn't appear to succeed at anything.

The customer base is it's first problem. You have a wide range of people travelling both short distances (commuting or leisure), mixed with those travelling long distances. This contributes to the very heavy loadings on certain parts of the network. If X/C had a mix of trains that covered long & short distance flows separately, it would cope much better in my opinion.

The next problem is the franchise itself. To try to make money out of the operation, X/C has resorted to removing the on-board catering & squeezing a few extra seats into each voyager. There's no incentive to use the HST's fully as these cost a lot more for the TOC to operate. Cue wedged voyagers which can't cope with today's demands.

In defence of the current X/C franchise, the voyagers were specified by Virgin, who assumed that they could re-write the timetable & revise fares in such a way so that people would travel more outside of the peak times & loadings would be evenly distributed throughout the day. Fine in theory but in the real world, this was always doomed to failure.

I would suggest some of X/C's work today would be more appropriately handled by some of the other TOC's and that it should concentrate on more medium to long distance work with fewer stops. Ultimately, this would require quite a bit of new stock which in the current era, is not likely to happen any time soon. The best that can be hoped for is that electrification will result in the cascade of more trains that can be used on X/C in the future.

 

[DarloRich]

It is a disgusting service, operated by a company who dont care on unsuitable trains for long distance travel. I try to avoid them like the plague. It is an essentially service serving the largest cities outside of London and is a disgrace.

The trains are horrible, and i for one, have spent the last Friday night i will ever spend traveling on one of their mobile ordurehouses wedged next to a toilet breathing in anothers pooh fumes for several hours.

The seats are thin, the seats are padded with a copy of yesterdays Star and are uncomfortable. They cut off the circulation to the legs after less than 2 hours. The seats are formed from the cheapest plastic that could be sourced and sometimes sitting on the floor would be better!

The trains stink and are rammed. There is sod all food on board and often you cant even get a brew as the hot water has run out. The tables are too small to allow you to work on a lap top, the wifi is awful and the trans block out mobile signals. EVERYTHING vibrates and everything has a slightly different resonance point to ensure maximum discomfort.

The one good thing about the company is that their front line staff are excellent and deserve better.

And, please, dont tell me people only make short journeys on XC!

 

[northern156]

Whenever I make a journey with XC it is normally Newcastle to York and/or return.
I have nothing against their trains; I rather like them. But that is in that other thread. Saying that, the journey (of around an hour) is very comfortable on the 22x's, and in summer I have never experienced air-con failure or in winter, heating failure!

I don't normally tend to use XC much because of their higher Advance prices (and Advances, to me, are gold dust) but I find their staff really friendly.
At the end of the day, the passenger buys a ticket for a TOC to get them from A to B - and Voyagers rarely break down (contrast that to loco-hauled services!) so they do just the job they are asked to.

 

[The Planner]

Can someone just type up a nice list of all that is rubbish with XC and just sticky it at the top of the forum?