What might happen to c2c's Class 387s

[387star]

Moderator note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/new-c2c-trains.140007/page-8

What happens to the 387s?

 

[Wivenswold]

I think the original plan was that the 387s would be absorbed into other fleets either on GWR or GN. GWR would seem favourite to add capacity to fleet that's being depleted for Heathrow Express conversions.

All speculation of course, it's a long way off yet.

 

[Doomotron]

I think the original plan was that the 387s would be absorbed into other fleets either on GWR or GN. GWR would seem favourite to add capacity to fleet that's being depleted for Heathrow Express conversions.

All speculation of course, it's a long way off yet.

The GWR 387 fleet hasn't actually been depleted, nor do they need new trains as Crossrail is replacing many existing 387 services.

As for GN, it's hard to tell. Extra 387s would be nice to replace more 365s, but then the 365s will be a microfleet.

Alternatively, with Southern needing new battery trains, the 387w and 379s could transfer to GTR, with 379s transferring to Great Northern (they could be modified to run at 110mph if it's necessary, but I don;t even thing the 987s run at that speed on the ECML) and the c2c and GN 387s, as they already have third rail shoes, transfer to Southern, with a number of them getting batteries and the rest just being used to increase existing Electrostar services. However, this may be problematic, as the 387s will need heavy software alterations to run with 377s properly (which may or may not involve making them slower). It'll be a choice between:
1: Southern get the 379s and GN the 387s from c2c, with the 379s having third rail shoes and batteries fitted, which will cost a lot.
2: Southern get the 387s from GN and c2c, and GN get the 379s, and batteries will be fitted to the 387s - but will take a lot of time, as the Mitrac systems are very different.
3: GN take both fleets and Southern gets new trains.
4: Southern electrify the Uckfield and Marshlink lines (yes I know this is a bit far-fetched).

OK, getting back onto the new trains, does anyone have any ideas what the interiors will be like?

 

[ScotGG]

To southeastern as the Class 466 issue means less capacity into London from Jan 2020?

 

[Flinn Reed]

The GWR 387 fleet hasn't actually been depleted, nor do they need new trains as Crossrail is replacing many existing 387 services.

As for GN, it's hard to tell. Extra 387s would be nice to replace more 365s, but then the 365s will be a microfleet.

Alternatively, with Southern needing new battery trains, the 387w and 379s could transfer to GTR, with 379s transferring to Great Northern (they could be modified to run at 110mph if it's necessary, but I don;t even thing the 987s run at that speed on the ECML) and the c2c and GN 387s, as they already have third rail shoes, transfer to Southern, with a number of them getting batteries and the rest just being used to increase existing Electrostar services. However, this may be problematic, as the 387s will need heavy software alterations to run with 377s properly (which may or may not involve making them slower). It'll be a choice between:
1: Southern get the 379s and GN the 387s from c2c, with the 379s having third rail shoes and batteries fitted, which will cost a lot.
2: Southern get the 387s from GN and c2c, and GN get the 379s, and batteries will be fitted to the 387s - but will take a lot of time, as the Mitrac systems are very different.
3: GN take both fleets and Southern gets new trains.
4: Southern electrify the Uckfield and Marshlink lines (yes I know this is a bit far-fetched).

OK, getting back onto the new trains, does anyone have any ideas what the interiors will be like?

I think Great Northern should take the 379s from GA when released to fully operate all 365/387 services.

Then release the 387s to Southern (along with the 6x 387s from C2C) to operate mainline services, where 387s already run the Gatwick Express services. Southern's 377s would then be used mostly on stopping services, as well as some replacing the 313s on coastway routes (as well as possibly some South London routes to replace 455s).

GTR could even also look at introducing the 707s from SWR on London metro routes, replacing the 455s. This would then simplify the combined GTR fleet to electrostars (377s, 379s and 387s) and desiro citys (700s, 707s and 717s).

 

[jopsuk]

we're well into topic drift, but GN currently use 29 387s and 21 365s, so 30 379s is not enough to replace that

 

[samuelmorris]

In addition to those concerns, there are some (as far as I know unsubstantiated) rumours about some 379s staying put with GA. I think the C2C fleet joining 379s seems unlikely at this point, I expect them to be merged into one of the other 387 fleets and that being the end of it. It would, however, be possible for 379s and GN 387s (which don't need their DC capability) to be swapped such that the GN 387s operate Southern services, what with 387s already being used for GX. This would enable some of them to either directly replace 455s or cascade earlier 377s to do so. I realise there aren't enough 379s to fully achieve this, however.

 

[hwl]

The GWR 387 fleet hasn't actually been depleted, nor do they need new trains as Crossrail is replacing many existing 387 services.

The GWR fleet is being depleted with 12 units being converted to Heathrow Express specification - only possible because Didcot - Oxford hasn't been electrified (yet) as was planned. Post full Crossrail running GWR would still be short of stock if Oxford was electrified hence the C2C units going to GWR in that case makes sense.

 

[hwl]

In addition to those concerns, there are some (as far as I know unsubstantiated) rumours about some 379s staying put with GA. I think the C2C fleet joining 379s seems unlikely at this point, I expect them to be merged into one of the other 387 fleets and that being the end of it. It would, however, be possible for 379s and GN 387s (which don't need their DC capability) to be swapped such that the GN 387s operate Southern services, what with 387s already being used for GX. This would enable some of them to either directly replace 455s or cascade earlier 377s to do so. I realise there aren't enough 379s to fully achieve this, however.

GN having all the 379s and half the current GN 387 fleet with the rest of the current GN 387s going to Southern would make sense (which would enable all GatEx up to 12 car and 2 other 12car in service daily)

 

[Wivenswold]

The GWR 387 fleet hasn't actually been depleted, nor do they need new trains as Crossrail is replacing many existing 387 services.

Thank you Doomotron. I'd actually completely forgotten about Crossrail.

 

[Energy]

I would say, 379s to GN to operate with the 387s any free 387s can go to Southern but if Southern decide to order some new trains to replace 313s and 455s then the free 387s go to GWR, C2C 387s will probably go to GWR.

 

[coradiafan2000]

Is there any reason why they couldn't go north? There's a far greater demand for new EMUs up in the Manchester/ Liverpool and Leeds area. They'd be a much better replacement for the 319s than more 323s. There may not be enough to replace the entire fleet but it's better than none.

 

[JonathanH]

Is there any reason why they couldn't go north? There's a far greater demand for new EMUs up in the Manchester/ Liverpool and Leeds area. They'd be a much better replacement for the 319s than more 323s. There may not be enough to replace the entire fleet but it's better than none.

Northern have procured a brand new fleet of 331s to run the key interurban services. 323s are perfectly adequate for everything else.

 

[coradiafan2000]

Northern have procured a brand new fleet of 331s to run the key interurban services. 323s are perfectly adequate for everything else.

That's true . But it won't be too long before the 323s will be seen unfavourable. WMR seem keen to get rid of theirs after all.

 

[03_179]

387/3 to GN.

707 to SN (replace 313s)

just saying would be sensible

 

[hexagon789]

The GWR 387 fleet hasn't actually been depleted, nor do they need new trains as Crossrail is replacing many existing 387 services.

As for GN, it's hard to tell. Extra 387s would be nice to replace more 365s, but then the 365s will be a microfleet.

Alternatively, with Southern needing new battery trains, the 387w and 379s could transfer to GTR, with 379s transferring to Great Northern (they could be modified to run at 110mph if it's necessary, but I don;t even thing the 987s run at that speed on the ECML) and the c2c and GN 387s, as they already have third rail shoes, transfer to Southern, with a number of them getting batteries and the rest just being used to increase existing Electrostar services. However, this may be problematic, as the 387s will need heavy software alterations to run with 377s properly (which may or may not involve making them slower). It'll be a choice between:
1: Southern get the 379s and GN the 387s from c2c, with the 379s having third rail shoes and batteries fitted, which will cost a lot.
2: Southern get the 387s from GN and c2c, and GN get the 379s, and batteries will be fitted to the 387s - but will take a lot of time, as the Mitrac systems are very different.
3: GN take both fleets and Southern gets new trains.
4: Southern electrify the Uckfield and Marshlink lines (yes I know this is a bit far-fetched).

OK, getting back onto the new trains, does anyone have any ideas what the interiors will be like?

Are there enough to transfer to GN and then withdraw the 365s?

 

[swt_passenger]

Are there enough to transfer to GN and then withdraw the 365s?

If still wondering about these replacing GN 365s, then c2c only have 6 387/3s, they don’t make much of an impression at all. I don’t think they are a direct solution to anything other than maybe GWR if Oxford wires ever happen.

 

[Snow1964]

If still wondering about these replacing GN 365s, then c2c only have 6 387/3s, they don’t make much of an impression at all. I don’t think they are a direct solution to anything other than maybe GWR if Oxford wires ever happen.

Always possibility that other wiring on GWR may happen, Basingstoke, Henley etc.

Also got to consider the sparks effect, might be big commuter growth on Reading-Didcot and Reading-Newbury areas, or even Reading-Langley. At current time not enough units to run 12 car commuter trains on all services. There must be a lot of people that drive to stations Winchester-Basingstoke-Brookwood that might live between the routes and consider changing. Once the Elizabeth line is open will be quick from Paddington to some parts of City or Canary Wharf (rather slow from Paddington currently).

I'm aware that the TfL rail (later Elizabeth line) has different fares to Reading (from January), but there are going to be some that will not want to use the stopping trains if they can save significant time on an electric semi-fast service. However I have no gut feeling for how much passenger volume might change in next 3 years compared to diesel service of 2 years ago so don't know if there are correct number of 387s

 

[swt_passenger]

Always possibility that other wiring on GWR may happen, Basingstoke, Henley etc.

Well yes, and that’s rather implied in any general discussion oF GW wiring, but I don’t really see any of them being done before the Oxford stretch.

 

[hexagon789]

If still wondering about these replacing GN 365s, then c2c only have 6 387/3s, they don’t make much of an impression at all. I don’t think they are a direct solution to anything other than maybe GWR if Oxford wires ever happen.

Probably better off bolstering GWR's fleet a bit then

 

[Energy]

If still wondering about these replacing GN 365s, then c2c only have 6 387/3s, they don’t make much of an impression at all. I don’t think they are a direct solution to anything other than maybe GWR if Oxford wires ever happen.

class 379s? even if not all leave GA then if about half the fleet leaves then they and the 387/3 could take over from 365s

 

[swt_passenger]

class 379s? even if not all leave GA then if about half the fleet leaves then they and the 387/3 could take over from 365s

My earlier question was only intended to confirm if the previous poster was asking specifically about the 387/3s.