What rail lines should be converted into tram lines ?

[61653 HTAFC]

It's part of the Rail Settlement Plan (much, as you say, like London Overground, it pretends not to be), and its infrastructure is owned and maintained by Network Rail. However it is now a locally managed concession and not a National Rail franchise/contract. As such it's contractually very similar to Metrolink or London Overground.

The critical factor for the average user isn't so much the regulatory regime, but things like through ticketing and continuity of said regulation for delay-repay etc.
Going outside the boundary isn't insurmountable of course, as you point out with the bits of Merseyrail that go to Cheshire and Lancashire. However TfGM presumably have little or no experience with this: IIRC the settlement between WYPTE and North Yorkshire for the extra Mcard zones to Harrogate and Skipton took a lot of sorting out.

I know, but it is (provided it's reliable) probably the single greatest selling point, outweighing less important things like whether you prefer ironing boards or Fainsa Sophias or whether trams (or 195s/331s) ride a bit badly.

What's the maximum frequency the current infrastructure can handle as heavy rail? Presumably not as high as Metrolink, but if the loop/wye* at the 'country' end is worked in one direction only (as used to be the case in the peaks, not sure if it still is), if you could maybe get a 15-min interval service, that's probably as much as the route needs for the foreseeable.

As @A0wen points out, the distance of the Hadfield line is a fair bit longer than other Met routes. Rochdale being the exception but surely only tram-nerds would use Met all the way to Manchester rather than the direct trains.
For me the crux is what is gained by converting Hadfield as opposed to say Rose Hill Marple. With Rose Hill you're removing diesels, with Hadfield you're swapping one green (at the point of use) mode for another. Both would free up capacity into Piccadilly to around the same extent, although both use the low numbered platforms which aren't the greatest capacity pinch. Rose Hill is a bit shorter I think, so more suitable for conversion than Hadfield depending on route chosen.

*=I suppose one advantage to trams would be the possibility of removing the reversals at Glossop and Hadfield by running on or adjacent to roads to a replacement tram stop. This could even be single track, a bit like the Merseyrail loop. Not sure how good the M5000s are at climbing hills though!

 

[A0wen]

As @A0wen points out, the distance of the Hadfield line is a fair bit longer than other Met routes. Rochdale being the exception but surely only tram-nerds would use Met all the way to Manchester rather than the direct trains.
For me the crux is what is gained by converting Hadfield as opposed to say Rose Hill Marple. With Rose Hill you're removing diesels, with Hadfield you're swapping one green (at the point of use) mode for another. Both would free up capacity into Piccadilly to around the same extent, although both use the low numbered platforms which aren't the greatest capacity pinch. Rose Hill is a bit shorter I think, so more suitable for conversion than Hadfield depending on route chosen.

Rose Hill Marple is 10 miles from Piccadilly so on a par with Rochdale.

The issue for me with that one is I'm not sure what problem it actually solves - arguably Marple would benefit more from having a Metrolink connection to Stockport than replacing their heavy rail connection to Piccadilly, though there doesn't appear to be a remotely practical way to achieve that.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Rose Hill Marple is 10 miles from Piccadilly so on a par with Rochdale.

The issue for me with that one is I'm not sure what problem it actually solves - arguably Marple would benefit more from having a Metrolink connection to Stockport than replacing their heavy rail connection to Piccadilly, though there doesn't appear to be a remotely practical way to achieve that.

Thanks, I'd assumed Rochdale would be further going the long way round via Oldham.
Agree that Met to Hadfield is a bit of a "solution looking for a problem" or more specifically "We've got a solution, what problem can we shoehorn it into?"

 

[A0wen]

Thanks, I'd assumed Rochdale would be further going the long way round via Oldham.

It probably is - TBF I took "as the crow" flies distances from the inner ring road. That said the problem they had was Oldham couldn't have been converted on its own leaving a stub of a rail line up to Rochdale. Equally I don't believe that many people travelled from Rochdale to Central Manchester via Oldham. Sure they might have done if they were heading to Chadderton or Failsworth, but if Victoria or beyond was the destination then most would have opted for a "fast" train via Castleton.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Thanks, I'd assumed Rochdale would be further going the long way round via Oldham.
Agree that Met to Hadfield is a bit of a "solution looking for a problem" or more specifically "We've got a solution, what problem can we shoehorn it into?"

The other reason in favour is that Metrolink doesn't require an operating subsidy.

 

[HSTEd]

I'd argue any line with the ruling linespeed below 60mph should be up for conversion

 

[Ken H]

The other reason in favour is that Metrolink doesn't require an operating subsidy.

Why? cheaper infrastructure? no Network Rail overheads? Cheaper operating staff? Cheaper signalling? More punters?

 

[Ken H]

I'd argue any line with the ruling linespeed below 60mph should be up for conversion

Settle - Carlisle?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

One of the bad moves with Metrolink when it started was removing Bury from the national ticketing. Why they could not retain tickets from the national network to 'Bury line Metro' as a destination I dont know. Now Oldham has suffered the same fate.
On National Rail, Bury isnt a station. Oldham is but I cant buy a ticket to there when I tried from Redditch. That's daft.
People who dont know the railway will assume there is no provision and drive.

For years after Metrolink to Bury opened, you could buy a ticket from the Fasticket* machine at Huddersfield marked 'Bury (via Metrolink)'. Don't know when such tickets were withdrawn but probably upon privatisation.

*Edit: a quick Google tells me the machines was a ASCOM B8050 Quickfare. Not "FastTicket", which was apparently a later Virgin brand that I'd somehow transliterated in my head. Wonder if any of those machines are still around or in museums, but that would be for another thread!

 

[Arkeeos]

None, unless there is an exceptional case, light rail should focus on running down its own right of ways with lane removal on roads, or down existing central reservations.

Frequency issues of heavy rail can be fixed through other methods, Such as tunnels through city centres, like the German S-Bahns, or alleviating capacity through building High Speed lines.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

the Bury and Altrincham lines were both electrified mainlines and I'm not sure the journey times degraded with the conversion to Metrolink.

Journey times back in BR days between Altrincham and Manchester Oxford Road were typically something like 20/21 minutes.

Now it's more like 26 minutes from Altrincham to the equivalent Manchester Metrolink destination of St. Peter's Square, but with a more frequent service.

One of the bad moves with Metrolink when it started was removing Bury from the national ticketing. Why they could not retain tickets from the national network to 'Bury line Metro' as a destination I dont know.

Fairly sure that "Bury Mtlk" was a ticketing destination for many years, certainly in the 2000s and 2010s. Tickets were available from rail origins outside Greater Manchester, and were usually calculated as the fare to Manchester Stns, plus a small add on.

For years after Metrolink to Bury opened, you could buy a ticket from the Fasticket machine at Huddersfield marked 'Bury (via Metrolink)'. Don't know when such tickets were withdrawn but probably upon privatisation.

Think they were possibly withdrawn in January 2019 when Metrolink changed over to a four concentric zones fares structure. Bury is now in Metrolink Zone 4, and so you'd need a ticket add on which is valid in all four zones if travelling from or via central Manchester.

This would now be the applicable fare to Bury from Huddersfield.

Look up fares for any train journey in Britain

Full details of all British rail Single, Return & Season tickets and Travelcards. Built-in Season Ticket Calculator.

www.brfares.com

 

[leytongabriel]

Stratford - Chingford, reinstating the Hall Curve and with additional and needed stops on the way where there are big gaps between stations now?
So tram-trains alternating with Overground services to Chingford and whoever is running the lower Lea valley services then. Possibility of street running down the wide avenue towards Stratford International too serving the new developments in E20
Pipe dream of course, but you asked

 

[Jozhua]

I would argue the Robin Hood Line. Barely gets above 60mph (top speed of tram-trains in Sheffield is 62) and stops fairly frequently.

Existing DMU service struggles with long dwells at stations and slow acceleration up to speed.

There is also the potential of adding in some stops (one at Basford, one at Derby Road near QMC) to better serve other destinations around the city.

You could increase frequency to 15 minutes, with every other tram going to Worksop.

Remember too, tram technology varies massively. You can go from low floor, low speed trams, designed for on street running, to high floor, high speed, tram-trains, that are essentially trains that *can* also run on the street.

Trams would need far better crash worthiness. Imagine the outcry of a freight were to hit the back of a tram and the tram simply folded.
The tram woukd also need AWS and TPWS to operate aafely on main line.

Trams already often need better crash worthiness to deal with physical interactions with road vehicle.

Literally nobody living near Capenhurst, Bache, Overpool, Little Sutton, Ellesmere Port, Chester, Town Green, Aughton Park or Ormskirk objects to the Merseyside taxpayer providing them with a disproportionately excellent train service, a situation that has existed for many, many years.

People would welcome Metrolink for the simple reason that 5 per hour is better than 2 per hour. This Forum has a curious overriding view that 2tph of heavy rail is always superior to a frequent tram or light rail metro service. In the eyes of the general public, it definitely is not.

True! Journey times do matter, but again, a tram running on a 10 mile route with stops every mile or so is probably not going to fare any worse than a train running on a similar route. Indeed, likely better, because of DOO, faster acceleration and an ability to skip stops.

Why? cheaper infrastructure? no Network Rail overheads? Cheaper operating staff? Cheaper signalling? More punters?

Yes

 

[Monkeyhead]

We'll be colonising Mars before Leeds gets any form of mass transport that isn't a bus.

 

[Bletchleyite]

From the other-way-round thread:

The priority should be more heavy to light rail conversions, in particular the ex-GC suburban lines to the SE of Manchester (linking in with the tram services currently termination at Piccadilly), and the South Fylde line (south of Starr Gate/Squires Gate).

Yes, this. The Blackpool Tramway should be extended onto the Blackpool South line to Kirkham and Wesham, and all trains from Preston to Blackpool North should stop there (possibly some instead of Poulton). It appears that this would be quite easy to achieve infrastructure-wise - the branch already appears to have a dedicated platform and line at Kirkham, while there's plenty of undeveloped land to get across from Starr Gate to the South line near Squires Gate, though South and Pleasure Beach would close, being replaced with the nearby tram stops.

 

[Gareth]

I'd probably just do to Lytham. The bit between there and Kirkham is a fairly long rural section and I think Lytham itself is a just about sizeable enough place that could still find an hourly service to Preston useful, rather than travelling into Blackpool and travelling out again. West of there, the better penetration (and frequency into Blackpool) would make a tram extension more useful than the existing service and I agree with feeding it into Starr Gate and closing the Squires Gate-Blackpool South section. This frees up the South station site for development, creates a new right of way, which could be a new road or cycleway and allow the removal of the flyover on Lytham Road, which would improve the look and walkability of the immediate area.

 

[Halifaxlad]

Leeds - Bradford via Pudsey seems a very odd choice.

What happens to the services that run beyond Bradford towards Halifax (ie all of them)?

Maybe they could be transfered over to a new line ?

 

[Neptune]

Maybe they could be transfered over to a new line ?

Where?

 

[Howardh]

As above - Kirkham to Blackpool South looks a very likely conversion, especially if, and when, the Fleetwood line becomes part of the tram network; although it's anyone's guess if it will be restored as heavy rail, metro, tram, heritage, hovercraft, horse and cart or be ignored for the next 20 years.
But if that were to happen and be tram, and the coast line transferred to tram, then you have a complete loop of sorts.
Would be a bit daft to have the Fylde a mix of metro, rail and tram, but I wouldn't bet against it!!

 

[miklcct]

None. Rail and tram have different purposes. If an area wants a tram they should build it from scratch.

A tram is a railway by definition. Anything which run on rails are railways.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

We'll be colonising Mars before Leeds gets any form of mass transport that isn't a bus.

None of the extant routes around Leeds are suitable for tram conversion for a variety of reasons. Ilkley the best case but trams would probably be a downgrade compared to what it has now, even with the presumed higher frequency of trams.

Sheffield would be a better model than Manchester for Leeds to take inspiration from. I'd say Prague would be even better but let's learn to walk before we try to run!

 

[Neptune]

None of the extant routes around Leeds are suitable for tram conversion for a variety of reasons. Ilkley the best case but trams would probably be a downgrade compared to what it has now, even with the presumed higher frequency of trams.

Sheffield would be a better model than Manchester for Leeds to take inspiration from. I'd say Prague would be even better but let's learn to walk before we try to run!

Would Ilkley be the best case?

- It already has an electric service.
- Trams just wouldn’t have the capacity of the trains used
- It would mean a slow trudge down from Guiseley into Leeds via the heavily congested A65.
- A tram would get nowhere near the current sub half hour journey.
- What would be happening to the Bradford service.

As you say, there are no decent routes to convert around Leeds and it would be far better to look at routes that are not currently rail connected.

We'll be colonising Mars before Leeds gets any form of mass transport that isn't a bus.

I agree 100%. I’ve said it before, there’ll be millions spent on consultation and planning for this and then it’ll be dropped in favour of yet another ‘quality bus corridor’ (like there’s such a thing).

 

[Howardh]

Would Ilkley be the best case?

- It already has an electric service.
- Trams just wouldn’t have the capacity of the trains used
- It would mean a slow trudge down from Guiseley into Leeds via the heavily congested A65.
- A tram would get nowhere near the current sub half hour journey.
- What would be happening to the Bradford service.

As you say, there are no decent routes to convert around Leeds and it would be far better to look at routes that are not currently rail connected.

This is the argument against Bolton - Manchester becoming a tramline. Locals seem to want trams as the grass is always greener, but you now have a much improved and fast direct rail link - that those who say they want the tram won't use!
To be fair the stations in-between aren't particularly convenient for locals and haven't the space for p+r so many have to bus to Bolton to go back on themselves via train.
So it makes sense to connect south Bolton to Manchester by tram using old rail lines and street running yet keeping the current heavy rail line.
Although seeing as there is a guided busway nearby, extending that would be the cheapest option?
Leaving the Ilkley line aside, could Leeds run guided buses on old lines and current streets? Or even trolly buses - I remember them from Huddersfield...just!!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I see no sense in Bolton. Atherton on the other hand definitely yes.

 

[Neptune]

Leaving the Ilkley line aside, could Leeds run guided buses on old lines and current streets? Or even trolly buses - I remember them from Huddersfield...just!!

This is the age old problem in Leeds. When all else fails (ie funding) then go back to bloody buses.

Trolleybuses for Leeds was a plan after supertram failed and was also kicked into touch for, you’ve guessed it, buses!

It’s so frustrating that the UK city with the biggest financial centre outside London is constantly left behind (see also HS2).

I’m sure that if supertram had happened in Leeds 20 odd years ago then it would now be in the throws of being looked at for expansion.

 

[Howardh]

This is the age old problem in Leeds. When all else fails (ie funding) then go back to bloody buses.

Trolleybuses for Leeds was a plan after supertram failed and was also kicked into touch for, you’ve guessed it, buses!

It’s so frustrating that the UK city with the biggest financial centre outside London is constantly left behind (see also HS2).

I’m sure that if supertram had happened in Leeds 20 odd years ago then it would now be in the throws of being looked at for expansion.

I haven't got a map handy, so can you tell me how much disused rail is available and whether guided bus routes or trams could be used on a mixture of current roads, old rail and is there space for new lines in part?

 

[Neptune]

I haven't got a map handy, so can you tell me how much disused rail is available and whether guided bus routes or trams could be used on a mixture of current roads, old rail and is there space for new lines in part?

The supertram plan was based on roads rather than old railway lines as their aren’t a huge amount conveniently available. Maybe the old route from Stanningley around the old Pudsey loop and down towards Heckmondwike & Cleckheaton would be available to a certain extent. This could link into the old route via Idle/Thackley towards Shipley although I think a lot of this route would need bridges etc putting back in so would be financially obstructive and there’s probably been houses built over the old formation in places anyway.

The route from Crossgates up to Wetherby. Maybe look at a mix of road and segregated running up to the branch itself.

 

[Ken H]

I haven't got a map handy, so can you tell me how much disused rail is available and whether guided bus routes or trams could be used on a mixture of current roads, old rail and is there space for new lines in part?

no disused rail really. The only possible is the Crossgates-Wetherby line but that doesnt really go anywhere useful. And squeezing more services on the Leeds - Crossgates line would be a non-starter.

So a huge sector with no help from the railways. The line to Shipley/Ilkley follows the river so not really built up. The Harrogate line misses anywhere busy. Headingley Stn is nowhere near Headingley really.
Then nothing in the sector between the Harrogate Line and the line to Crossgates. Huge estates of low density housing built since WW1 in Cookridge, Alwoodley, Moortown, Roundhay, Gipton, Seacroft. Hard to serve, even with buses.

South of the river the lines are busy with long distance traffic to Bradford, Huddersfield, Wakefield, Castleford etc. No room for trams there.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Would Ilkley be the best case?

- It already has an electric service.
- Trams just wouldn’t have the capacity of the trains used
- It would mean a slow trudge down from Guiseley into Leeds via the heavily congested A65.
- A tram would get nowhere near the current sub half hour journey.
- What would be happening to the Bradford service.

Perhaps "least-worst" case would have been the better phrase. Simply because as a relatively short branch there's no freight or long-distance traffic to worry about. I only really mentioned it because it seems to be mentioned by those who think "tram-train" is a magic bullet, or those who think the only way to do trams is to find a railway route to convert.
Not sure where the A65 from Guiseley would come into it, as any conversion would probably use tram-trains and not leave the current railway alignment until much closer to Leeds city centre. I did acknowledge that such a plan would be seen as a downgrade, including by myself. If it were to happen the Bradford would probably have to terminate at Guiseley, so that's another reason not to do it. Again, in no way was I suggesting it was a good idea- just that it would be easier (on paper) than any other routes in the area.

 

[Ken H]

Perhaps "least-worst" case would have been the better phrase. Simply because as a relatively short branch there's no freight or long-distance traffic to worry about. I only really mentioned it because it seems to be mentioned by those who think "tram-train" is a magic bullet, or those who think the only way to do trams is to find a railway route to convert.
Not sure where the A65 from Guiseley would come into it, as any conversion would probably use tram-trains and not leave the current railway alignment until much closer to Leeds city centre. I did acknowledge that such a plan would be seen as a downgrade, including by myself. If it were to happen the Bradford would probably have to terminate at Guiseley, so that's another reason not to do it. Again, in no way was I suggesting it was a good idea- just that it would be easier (on paper) than any other routes in the area.

Once the Ilkley line joins the Shipley - Leeds line then the tram trains would have to interwork with the 25Kv EMU's, diesels from Lancaster and Carlisle and freight. Or have a dedicated line for them to run on (Leeds - Shipley was 4 track originally). Then once you get to Armley you have to find a way into Leeds - the west end of Leeds station is heavily congested.