What railways should be looked at for reopening?

[YorkshireBear]

Might not get everyone excited as much as a proper Woodhead Route with express trains but how about

Upgrade Barnsley to Penistone
Reopen Penistone to Hadfield
4 track Piccadilly (Ashburys) to Guide Bridge

Then you can have a 15 minute frequency on Manchester Piccadilly to Dinting with 2tph being stoppers serving all stations to Glossop and 2 tph being "fast" serving Ashburys, Guide Bridge, Dinting, Hadfield, Woodhead*, Penistone, Barnsley. What happens to the train after Barnsley I am not sure, possibly onward in the path of the Huddersfield to Sheffield, which could be reduced to Penistone - Huddersfield shuttling.

Just a shame there is a gap between Barnsley and Doncaster or a quick alternative for that route would have been identified.

Such a route would offer another alternative diversion route for the trans pennine services, and freight could be routed that way to free up some paths on the hope valley line.

This is more an Airdrie to Bathgate kind of suggestion in terms of the services I can see it creating.

it is the aim of NR and SYPTE to get the doncaster barnsley line open asap....

 

[bradders1983]

it is the aim of NR and SYPTE to get the doncaster barnsley line open asap....

Is there a line there currently/historically?

Don't recall one.

 

[sprinterguy]

Is there a line there currently/historically?

Don't recall one.

The line through Wath will be the one being referred to, so yes, very much there in the past.

 

[Invincibles]

Well that all opens up something potentially very interesting I think.

Manchester - Barnsley - Doncaster would have decent demand I would think.

As well as the benefit of reducing pressure on the hope valley services and so create more capacity between Sheffield and Manchester

 

[YorkshireBear]

yeah there is an old alignment, think it joined in swinton area not sure of details exactly i just know an express bus is the short term solution until funding and design occurs
It split off from current barnsley sheffield line around where a tesco just south or barnsley is i think some of old bridges still there

It could be very interesting demand i feel, but would that offer competitive times with the slowness of barnsley huddersfield?

 

[sprinterguy]

Well that all opens up something potentially very interesting I think.

Manchester - Barnsley - Doncaster would have decent demand I would think.

As well as the benefit of reducing pressure on the hope valley services and so create more capacity between Sheffield and Manchester

Yeah I think so; the South Transpennine service to Cleethorpes could run via the Woodhead route and Wath to reach Doncaster, bypassing Sheffield, and the Norwich-Liverpool EMT trains could also run via Woodhead and negate having to reverse at Sheffield, which would allow an increased local service on the Hope Valley line; with an hourly Sheffield-Manchester Hope Valley local train and potentially a Sheffield-Edale-Buxton service, providing that a new chord could be built allowing access to Buxton station from the East.

 

[Invincibles]

Yeah I think so; the South Transpennine service to Cleethorpes could run via the Woodhead route and Wath to reach Doncaster, bypassing Sheffield, and the Norwich-Liverpool EMT trains could also run via Woodhead and negate having to reverse at Sheffield, which would allow an increased local service on the Hope Valley line; with an hourly Sheffield-Manchester Hope Valley local train and potentially a Sheffield-Edale-Buxton service, providing that a new chord could be built allowing access to Buxton station from the East.

And open up a nice path from the East Midlands to Manchester that could go round Dore South and avoid Sheffield that way to give some very competitive journey times on a route that currently is not well served. Leicester, East Midlands Parkway, Alfreton, Chesterfield, Stockport, Manchester would be a great service

 

[LE Greys]

One we haven't mentioned is Birmingham Snow Hill-Wolverhampton Low Level. It would be hard to do, as the Midland Metro and various developments sit on top of the line, but reinstating it would give access from the Chiltern Line to the former GWR route to Telford and Shrewsbury, then on to the Cambrian routes, and provide a diversion away from Smethwick if there was access at Proof House and Oxley junctions. Clearing Telford, Shrewsbury, Aberystwyth and Pwllheli services out of New Street might not do much, but it would be some help. There is also the possibility of reviving the Cambrian Coast Express, from Marylebone this time rather than Paddington. Any freight headed through (not sure about freight between Birmingham and Wolverhampton) could go that way as well to avoid New Street.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Yeah I think so; the South Transpennine service to Cleethorpes could run via the Woodhead route and Wath to reach Doncaster, bypassing Sheffield, and the Norwich-Liverpool EMT trains could also run via Woodhead and negate having to reverse at Sheffield, which would allow an increased local service on the Hope Valley line; with an hourly Sheffield-Manchester Hope Valley local train and potentially a Sheffield-Edale-Buxton service, providing that a new chord could be built allowing access to Buxton station from the East.

The full route, complete with Sheffield Victoria, would avoid the need to bypass Sheffield at all, something I just can't see TPX doing unless there is a good reason. It also might be a good time to transfer the Norwich-Liverpool services from EMT to XC. I've sometimes wondered if Norwich-Glasgow was a possibility, but that would rely on a better link between Nottingham and Sheffield (the GCR would have been a good option there). Maybe not many people would go all the way through, but I'd use it between Peterborough and Oxenholme.

 

[185]

Musings of a madman....

Leigh - Chat Moss.
Buxton - Matlock.
Southport - Preston.
Colne - Skipton.
Ruabon - Llangollen, Corwen - Bala.
Bangor - Caernarfon.
Scarborough - Whitby.
Hull - Hull Docks - Withernsea
Hull - Beverley - York.
Ormskirk - Skelmersdale.
Holmfirth - Penistone Line.
Bradford Int - Bradford Fost Sq (New).
Ilkley - Skipton.
Garsdale - Wensleydale - Northallerton.
Haverthwaite - Ulverston.
Penrith - Keswick.
Mold - Broughton - Chester.
Jersey Railway.
Ventnor - Shanklin.
Southampton - Hythe - Cowes (New)
Newport - Ryde.
Okehampton - Tavistock - Bere Alston - Plymouth.
Barnstaple - Ilfracombe, Barnstaple - Bideford.
Ardwick West Curve.
Todmorden North Curve.
Burscough Jn-Bridge Curve.

 

[LE Greys]

If we include new
Inverness-Fort William-Oban
Wonderfully scenic route, and does something about the current travel times (7-8 hours Fort William-Inverness by rail, 2 by coach). The Great Glen is a natural route, and would undoubtedly attract thousands of tourists, especially with a few steam services in the summer.

 

[Nightrider]

Other reopenings I’d promote would be to extend the Larkhall branch round to Strathaven on its old alignment, as surely there is sizeable commuter traffic from there into Glasgow. And similarly, at the other end of this once continuous route, reopen a branch from Kilmarnock to Darvel.

Quite possibly these two projects will happen in the long term (20 years) and as an add on to the final parts of electrification in the central belt of Scotland.

 

[The Planner]

One we haven't mentioned is Birmingham Snow Hill-Wolverhampton Low Level. It would be hard to do, as the Midland Metro and various developments sit on top of the line, but reinstating it would give access from the Chiltern Line to the former GWR route to Telford and Shrewsbury, then on to the Cambrian routes, and provide a diversion away from Smethwick if there was access at Proof House and Oxley junctions. Clearing Telford, Shrewsbury, Aberystwyth and Pwllheli services out of New Street might not do much, but it would be some help. There is also the possibility of reviving the Cambrian Coast Express, from Marylebone this time rather than Paddington. Any freight headed through (not sure about freight between Birmingham and Wolverhampton) could go that way as well to avoid New Street.

Waste of time. There is no point in it, New St Wolves can cope with what is there already and you would clear two paths an hour both ways. Loads of redevelopment at the Wolves ends stops it anyway. The only booked freight, apart from diversions, is Wolves Steel Terminal and the odd bit that comes across Soho towards Rowley Regis. We dont book freight through New St unless we really have to, it all tends to go on the Grands.

 

[route:oxford]

If we include new
Inverness-Fort William-Oban
Wonderfully scenic route, and does something about the current travel times (7-8 hours Fort William-Inverness by rail, 2 by coach). The Great Glen is a natural route, and would undoubtedly attract thousands of tourists, especially with a few steam services in the summer.

It got fairly close in the past didn't it?

The line ran from Fort Bill to Fort Augustus.

 

[sprinterguy]

The full route, complete with Sheffield Victoria, would avoid the need to bypass Sheffield at all, something I just can't see TPX doing unless there is a good reason. It also might be a good time to transfer the Norwich-Liverpool services from EMT to XC. I've sometimes wondered if Norwich-Glasgow was a possibility, but that would rely on a better link between Nottingham and Sheffield (the GCR would have been a good option there). Maybe not many people would go all the way through, but I'd use it between Peterborough and Oxenholme.

I can imagine that TPE surrendering Sheffield entirely would be a major flaw in my plan, given it's importance as a population centre, so I like your idea of reopening Sheffield Vic and the line between Stocksbridge and Penistone.

Waste of time. There is no point in it, New St Wolves can cope with what is there already and you would clear two paths an hour both ways. Loads of redevelopment at the Wolves ends stops it anyway. The only booked freight, apart from diversions, is Wolves Steel Terminal and the odd bit that comes across Soho towards Rowley Regis. We dont book freight through New St unless we really have to, it all tends to go on the Grands.

Agreed, returning the GWR line to Wolves low level to heavy rail use would be a wasted venture, with the added complications of large scale redevelopment around Wolves low level station blocking the route and that Centro would never surrender Midland Metro line 1 that uses the trackbed. There's no need for a duplication of lines between Wolverhampton and Birmingham and, as you say, freight running along the Birmingham-Wolves axis is by and large routed via Bescot (from the Leamington and Coventry directions). Although I think it's worthy of note that I have seen a few more freights than is usual passing through New Street, albeit some of these being engineering trains for the New Street redevelopment that depart New Street quite late at night.

And open up a nice path from the East Midlands to Manchester that could go round Dore South and avoid Sheffield that way to give some very competitive journey times on a route that currently is not well served. Leicester, East Midlands Parkway, Alfreton, Chesterfield, Stockport, Manchester would be a great service

Sounds like a good plan!

It got fairly close in the past didn't it?

The line ran from Fort Bill to Fort Augustus

.
Yeah it made it halfway, and I think had intentions of reaching Inverness via the Great Glen at one point. There is also trackbed half way from the Oban line to Fort William by way of the Ballachulish branch.

 

[tbtc]

it is the aim of NR and SYPTE to get the doncaster barnsley line open asap....

Would be an interesting one, to link Barnsley to the ECML

Only trouble is the flat junctions you'd need at Swinton, but there's certainly scope, especially if linked to a reopened Woodhead line, for freight between Lancashire and Yorkshire
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I can imagine that TPE surrendering Sheffield entirely would be a major flaw in my plan, given it's importance as a population centre, so I like your idea of reopening Sheffield Vic and the line between Stocksbridge and Penistone

TBH I'd be perfectly happy for Nottingham - Manchester and Doncaster - Manchester to both be diverted away from Sheffield (via Matlock/ Buxton, and via Woodhead/ Barnsley respectively), as long as Sheffield retains its current service to Manchester/ Doncaster/ Nottingham.

A two coach train isn't enough for Sheffield - Manchester, but if you took out the "longer distance" traffic then there's more of a chance of Sheffield passengers getting a seat

My only concern is that all Sheffield - Manchester "fast" trains should use the same Sheffield station (if Victoria is reopened)

 

[cle]

Not a new line, but rather service - I always thought a permanent Rio service would do well:

London - Luton/Bedford (alternate two-hourly) - Leicester - Derby - Chesterfield (two hourly maybe) - Stockport - Manchester

It would provide loads of intermediate journeys as well as provide some competition on the London - Manc route. I think Chesterfield could be cut as an option, as it's well served by all others, and the Liverpool - Norwich provides an hourly Stockport/Manc train, which is probably enough.


Also - the Inverness/Fort William line would be great. Would there be any freight potential for this?

 

[DarloRich]

[QUOTE
The Leamside line is a good shout, but it depends on what you want it reopened for. A fast diversion for long distance trains to avoid the Durham curves/ congestion? A "local" service to connect Washington-area to the railway? A two-track line can't be both. And any diversion of stopping services to use a Washington station (etc) may mean a reduction in service to Durham

Self contained lines to existing stations with spare capacity are good too, like a Blyth - Newcastle service.
QUOTE]

To me the Leamside line would be used as a diversionary route for ECML emergencies, but more importantly as a heavy freight route, coupled with an upgrade of the Ferryhill-Stillington-Eaglescliffe-Northallerton route. This would allow any freight form Tyne Dock (and oils from Jarrow) to access the four track section of the ECML south of Northalelrton towards York without blocking up the (basically) two track Newcastle-Northallerton section. You would need some work on the junctions at Pelaw, perhaps a new cord from the down Sunderland to the up Leamside. An added benefit would be to take freight traffic off the coast route, allowing for more passenger trains. It may also be possible to route some of the fright form further north on the ECML this way to increase passenger paths south of Newcastle. It has also stuck me as strange that this line runs very close to the Nissan plant, yet Nissan send nothing out by rail, not even to the nearby Port of Tyne! Perhaps this could be addressed at the same time. There is also a massive Asda distribution centre right next door. Again an opportunity for a service perhaps.

Passenger wise (southern end) you could run a Newcastle -Middlesbrough (or Stockton) service via this route, adding in new stations at say sedgefield and Ferryhill. Although i would suggest that a more sensible option would be a Nexus metro style service from Newcastle to Fencehouses with stations at say Penshaw, Washington and Ulsworth. There are suggestions for a parkway style station at Belmont near Durham and a new station at Gateshead East but both seems unrealistic ( unless NR reopen the whole line to passengers)

However, I cant see a reopening anytime soon (which saddens me immensely) for the following reasons:

1) The condition of Victoria Viaduct between Penshaw and Washington
2) reinstallation of signalling infrastructure
3) Condition/replacement of track infrastructure (that which has not been nicked!)
4) Finance (There is a report I have seen from around 2007/2008 by the old TWPE that costed Leamside/Stillington upgrade at something like £65-85m!)

In fact I can see NR taking the track assets out and simply protecting the route from development. Unfortunately there won’t be a reopening any time soon!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
As an edit - i also agree that the Blyth and Tyne route should be reopened to passengers.

 

[NXEA!]

I'd have to agree with the Devonshire suggestions having lived locally for a few years. Re-opening Barnstaple-Torrington/Ilfracombe would be a good idea, as it is an area popular with tourists and holiday makers, and in the summer these towns get extremely busy roadwise with people passing through. Also Okehampton-Tavistock-(Bere Alston is it?) Would be something worth investing in as Okehampton and Tavistock have got sizeable populations and many commute to Exeter and Plymouth, not to mention the potential it has as a diversionary route for when the Dawlish route is shut, as nothing can reach Cornwall if that stretch of line is shut so it keeps connectivity. In Essex I would suggest reopening a line to Maldon from Witham or South Woodham Ferrers as Maldon's population has grown somewhat, and it would be within an hours travelling time from Liverpool Street for commuters. Braintree-Dunmore extended onto Stansted would make travelling from East Anglia to the airport simple with a change at Witham and when the Stansted line is shut for engineering works, trains could be run from Liverpool Street via Witham. Lastly I would like to see the line from Chappel & Wakes Colne to Halstead reinstated as people do commute from there to London and have to drive to Witham/Braintree for a train. Just a few schemes there

 

[Bakerbloke]

Agree Buxton - Matlock and this could be the new Norwich to Liverpool Route.

Keep Transpennine on existing route because I like the express services at Chinley.

Also - not closed (yet) - what about that line that goes through Reddish South which has one train a week in one direction? Could it not be used for something?

 

[tbtc]

Also - not closed (yet) - what about that line that goes through Reddish South which has one train a week in one direction? Could it not be used for something?

It could easily be used as a route from Leeds/ Huddersfield to Stockport/ Crewe/ WCML, which has the potential to be a decent flow (its been suggested as an "Open Access" route, but then so has any link between two UK stations not currently served!).

This is a bit like the Cumbernauld - Motherwell service which offers a "Glasgow avoider route" for people wanting to avoid the need to go into the big city to get to the WCML. However, there is always going to be more demand for Leeds/ Huddersfield - Manchester and Manchester - Stockport/ Crewe/ WCML, so TOCs prioritise the more "obvious" flows.

 

[EltonRoad]

If we include new
Inverness-Fort William-Oban
Wonderfully scenic route, and does something about the current travel times (7-8 hours Fort William-Inverness by rail, 2 by coach). The Great Glen is a natural route, and would undoubtedly attract thousands of tourists, especially with a few steam services in the summer.

Also - the Inverness/Fort William line would be great. Would there be any freight potential for this?

I'd love to see this line built! There used to be a line from Spean Bridge to Fort Augustus Pier (about half way to Inverness), the trackbed can still be seen in many places on the ground and on Google Earth. Freight continued on this line long after passenger services stopped, would be great to see it reopened.

Fort William to Oban would be spectacular, how about rebuilding the line from Connel Ferry to Ballachulish, some of which is now a path, although you'd have to convert the hotel at Kentallen back into a station. Likewise, the doctors' surgery at Ballachulish probably wouldn't take too kindly.

 

[LE Greys]

I'd love to see this line built! There used to be a line from Spean Bridge to Fort Augustus Pier (about half way to Inverness), the trackbed can still be seen in many places on the ground and on Google Earth. Freight continued on this line long after passenger services stopped, would be great to see it reopened.

Fort William to Oban would be spectacular, how about rebuilding the line from Connel Ferry to Ballachulish, some of which is now a path, although you'd have to convert the hotel at Kentallen back into a station. Likewise, the doctors' surgery at Ballachulish probably wouldn't take too kindly.

That line originally had one of the few road/rail bridges in Scotland, and Britain's first Motorail service. Currently, the bridge carries the A828.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Waste of time. There is no point in it, New St Wolves can cope with what is there already and you would clear two paths an hour both ways. Loads of redevelopment at the Wolves ends stops it anyway. The only booked freight, apart from diversions, is Wolves Steel Terminal and the odd bit that comes across Soho towards Rowley Regis. We dont book freight through New St unless we really have to, it all tends to go on the Grands.

The idea was to increase the service to Shrewsbury and Aberystwyth through to London without increasing traffic through New Street, and probably influenced by my policy of company separation (isolate the former GWR lines and split them off to a separate franchise). I'm not entirely familiar with traffic levels around the West Midlands, but it looks like an extremely busy section of double-track railway.

 

[The Planner]

You would be suprised how much of a logistical nightmare Snow Hill can be, hopefully when the tram gets extended we will get the platform back.

 

[tbtc]

You would be suprised how much of a logistical nightmare Snow Hill can be, hopefully when the tram gets extended we will get the platform back.

What's the main problem? The Chiltern terminators presumably (as the LM services are generally "through" ones)? Will the Moor Street bay help?

 

[The Planner]

The bays will help a lot, but trains that used to go and sit outside Snow Hill caused problems with the shunt moves.

 

[tbtc]

The bays will help a lot, but trains that used to go and sit outside Snow Hill caused problems with the shunt moves.

Cheers.

Fascinated by these little headaches we humble passengers don't "see"

 

[Bevan Price]

The old line from Carmarthen to Aberystwyth would be an extremely useful rail link today but, like most other former lines, has now been built over to the extent that it can never be reopened.

Removing property is no problem if some future government ever decreed that a line needed to be reopened. The Croydon tramway required removal of property that had been built on former railway land.

However, I don't see Aberystwyth - Carmarthen ever being reopened.
Did it in 1964 - just 3 trains per day, each way, none of which was particularly well-filled. Too much sparsely populated land between the termini to provide much custom, unfortunately..

Bevan
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Starting with my my local area:
1. St. Helens to St. Helens Junction, with through trains to Manchester (& hopefully included in the electrification scheme; no obstructions other than lack of funds)
2. Kenyon Junction - Leigh - Eccles (for Manchester).
(Snags - Would need expensive reinstatement of viaduct through Leigh, removal of road built on trackbed near Leigh, removal of some property near Eccles Junction, replacement of several bridges.)
3. Buxton - Matlock (agree with other posts)
4. Blackpool South to Central.
(Chucking passengers out of trains over a mile from the town centre is silly. Anyone commuting from Lytham or St. Annes to Blackpool centre has to change to a bus - most of which start from Lytham or St. Annes.....)
5. Extended Merseyrail electric system, comprising Ormskirk - Skelmersdale and Ormskirk - Burscough Bridge (but no through trains to Southport at present).

Maybe some other thoughts later..

Bevan

 

[mwmbwls]

5. Extended Merseyrail electric system, comprising Ormskirk - Skelmersdale and Ormskirk - Burscough Bridge (but no through trains to Southport at present).

Liverpool Central - Ormskirk- Skelmersdale is the long way round. It takes 32minutes to get to Ormskirk from Liverpool Central. If a spur off the the Kirkby - Wigan line was built across the M58, branching just after Rainford Junction the centre of Skelmersdale could be reached in 28 minutes from Liverpool Central. If a triangular junction was built it would be possible for the current Manchester Kirkby trains to be diverted to Skelmersdale(continuing there the practice at Kirkby of cross platform interchange to Liverpool) - giving the residents access to both Liverpool ( their emotional home) and Manchester ( where the jobs and money is). The Old Skelmersdale - Ormskirk line served primarily small collieries and the sight of the old station is a long way from the centre of the new town where all buses and cycleways etc converge.Extension of the line from Ormskirk to Burscough makes sense - there is considerable local sentiment about the road from Ormskirk to Southport and a lot of pressure to extend the route via the south Burscough curves back to Southport with a new stop at Kew to enable access to the large hospital complex. The Skem branch would transform the town and the substantial numbers of commuters from Burscough and further north would stop clogging up the car park at Ormskirk station which is now full by eight o'clock.

 

[A0]

Not a new line, but rather service - I always thought a permanent Rio service would do well:

London - Luton/Bedford (alternate two-hourly) - Leicester - Derby - Chesterfield (two hourly maybe) - Stockport - Manchester

It would provide loads of intermediate journeys as well as provide some competition on the London - Manc route. I think Chesterfield could be cut as an option, as it's well served by all others, and the Liverpool - Norwich provides an hourly Stockport/Manc train, which is probably enough.

The passenger loadings were monitored when Rio was in operation, I believe with a view to making it permenant if the passenger loadings were acceptable. IIRC the loadings were considered poor from Leicester - Manchester and there was a greater benefit to restoring Nottingham's half-hourly service pattern to London (which was suspended to allow Rio to take place).

In terms of others -

Oxford - Bletchley should be a no-brainer, most of the route is in-situ, this could run onto Bedford and then via Corby to Peterborough (though a new curve would be needed at Manton). This would be an 'easy to do'.

Okehampton - Bere Alston would appear to make sense given the problems with trains running so close to the sea at Dawlish.

 

[PinzaC55]

Maldon East to Witham should be reopened. It would do well, especially if it had a through service to Liverpool Street.