What rolling stock could be used to the East Kilbride route, once electrified?

[Mollman]

Hopefully they learn from the 385 debacle and steer well clear of Hitachi!

They could always go with CAF instead

 

[Speed43125]

Hopefully they learn from the 385 debacle and steer well clear of Hitachi!

Hate to drag this OT, but the 385s have such high MITN it would surely be silly to order something else?

 

[waverley47]

Hate to drag this OT, but the 385s have such high MITN it would surely be silly to order something else?

So this is going off topic for a second, but I feel it's an important sub note to this thread.

The 385s are amazing units, on paper. They're very reliable, not too expensive, and maintained at a Hitachi depot, so it makes sense to buy more.

But several things preclude it being that easy. First, if you're buying new electric units for East Kilbride and replacing the BR stuff, you may as well take the time to also buy the new trains for Fife in the same order, and we know that Fife is going to need battery units for last mile off the wires.

Second, recent problems have shown that reliability isn't everything, there is always the possibility for fate to screw up the best units.

Thirdly, you might have to redesign the front, as various things have been said about not accepting more of the current design. Then you'd potentially have sub fleets, and even so you're going to have non compatibility between the 385s, 380s and 334s left over.

While 385s remain the most likely option, I wouldn't discount shopping around too soon.


Back to East Kilbride wiring, I had heard somewhere that the Barrhead bay was getting extended to accommodate longer stuff. That should have realistically been announced by now, so any more info on that happening?

 

[snookertam]

So this is going off topic for a second, but I feel it's an important sub note to this thread.

The 385s are amazing units, on paper. They're very reliable, not too expensive, and maintained at a Hitachi depot, so it makes sense to buy more.

But several things preclude it being that easy. First, if you're buying new electric units for East Kilbride and replacing the BR stuff, you may as well take the time to also buy the new trains for Fife in the same order, and we know that Fife is going to need battery units for last mile off the wires.

Second, recent problems have shown that reliability isn't everything, there is always the possibility for fate to screw up the best units.

Thirdly, you might have to redesign the front, as various things have been said about not accepting more of the current design. Then you'd potentially have sub fleets, and even so you're going to have non compatibility between the 385s, 380s and 334s left over.

While 385s remain the most likely option, I wouldn't discount shopping around too soon.


Back to East Kilbride wiring, I had heard somewhere that the Barrhead bay was getting extended to accommodate longer stuff. That should have realistically been announced by now, so any more info on that happening?

Ive often felt that an inner suburban version of the 385s would be a better option. The other issue with the new build option is if they are replacing the 318/320s, they’ll be working the North Clyde route alongside the 334s, and will need to be compatible with the platform lengths on those routes.

Not sure Selective door operation is a realistic option there.

More specific to East Kilbride, any use of class 318/320 units sounds like a non starter unless they can be worked with conductors. Aside from a short period on the North Berwick route in the early 2000s, these units have always been driver only. There’s no way ScotRail will be introducing DOO on the East Kilbride and Barrhead routes unless they fancy a prolonged industrial dispute.

 

[David Goddard]

Could we see a future order being for yet more new stock for the Central belt express services (possibly eight car units), with the 385s currently working there moved to take over the Barrhead/EK routes? Probably belongs in Speculative ideas (where I would have been safe from being shot down for suggesting it) but came to me while reading the above and thinking about this so thought would mention here.

 

[hwl]

Could we see a future order being for yet more new stock for the Central belt express services (possibly eight car units), with the 385s currently working there moved to take over the Barrhead/EK routes? Probably belongs in Speculative ideas (where I would have been safe from being shot down for suggesting it) but came to me while reading the above and thinking about this so thought would mention here.

Given the additional cost of cabs that would be substantially cheaper than ordering more 3 or 4 car units!

 

[JonathanH]

Hopefully they learn from the 385 debacle and steer well clear of Hitachi!

Surely if they did go for 385 type vehicles, the lessons learnt have already been put to use?

Given the additional cost of cabs that would be substantially cheaper than ordering more 3 or 4 car units!

An interesting point about whether 8 new 3-car units and 8 8-car units could be created by ordering 24 new intermediate cars (for 16 of the existing 4-car units and 8 inserted between the freed up driving cars) and avoiding the need to build new driving cars.

I guess that eight are needed for normal operation on the Edinburgh to Glasgow Queen Street route. Pairs of 4-cars could cover when one was not available.

I don't think, however, that this avoids the need to build new driving cars as there wouldn't be enough for East Kilbride. Moreover, I imagine that the depot hasn't been built around servicing eight car units.

 

[hexagon789]

Could we see a future order being for yet more new stock for the Central belt express services (possibly eight car units), with the 385s currently working there moved to take over the Barrhead/EK routes? Probably belongs in Speculative ideas (where I would have been safe from being shot down for suggesting it) but came to me while reading the above and thinking about this so thought would mention here.

I don't think it's worth shooting down, it's far far more sensible than most suggestions if you'll allow me to say!

Given the realtively captive nature of the E&G diagrams now you could certainly in theory have specific 8-car fixed formation trains for these services something similar in nature to the GA 745s, possibly also running the via Falkirk Grahamstons, then you could additionally concentrate First Class in one section for a start.

Given the additional cost of cabs that would be substantially cheaper than ordering more 3 or 4 car units!

Another advantage, if you could have compatibility with the 385s (even if not to be used in normal service) you solve the incompatibility issue that's one of the major disadvantages with a micro fleet.

 

[GLC]

There’s no way ScotRail will be introducing DOO on the East Kilbride and Barrhead routes unless they fancy a prolonged industrial dispute.

Granted they are not DOO today, but I believe the Strathclyde Manning agreement covers all suburban services within Strathclyde, so it might be possible for a DOO expansion under the agreement that stands today. Easier said than done of course

 

[sannox]

More specific to East Kilbride, any use of class 318/320 units sounds like a non starter unless they can be worked with conductors. Aside from a short period on the North Berwick route in the early 2000s, these units have always been driver only. There’s no way ScotRail will be introducing DOO on the East Kilbride and Barrhead routes unless they fancy a prolonged industrial dispute.

Should be a non-issue. It should be covered by the Strathclyde Manning Agreement, same as Paisley Canal and Whifflet lines were.

The dispute with Airdrie-Bathgate and Falkirk High lines was that those were outside the scope of that agreement - although A-B became DOO due to extension of Airdrie route.

 

[Rick1984]

An 8 car express unit to free up the class 385 makes sense.
I'd also build a 6 car metro unit to release class 380 and 385 from unsuitable routes, such as the Cathcart Circle, that they are currently used on