What rolling stock could be used to the East Kilbride route, once electrified?

[Steven_G]

When this is complete it will run EMU’s. But where are they coming from? And where are the current DMU’s going?

 

[Watershed]

When this is complete it will run EMU’s. But where are they coming from? And where are the current DMU’s going?

I think the intention is for additional 385s to run the route. 350/2s may be available sooner, if necessary.

The 156s will probably be cascaded to Northern if Scotrail has no other use for them.

 

[Steven_G]

I think the intention is for additional 385s to run the route. 350/2s may be available sooner, if necessary.

The 156s will probably be cascaded to Northern if Scotrail has no other use for them.

There aren’t any additional 385’s. That didn’t happen when the Abellio franchise wasn’t extended.

 

[Mordac]

There aren’t any additional 385’s. That didn’t happen when the Abellio franchise wasn’t extended.

You can always put a new order in, it's not like Hitachi forgot how to make them.

 

[och aye]

You can always put a new order in, it's not like Hitachi forgot how to make them.

I can't image they'd say "Oh, you didn't order any new trains when the franchise wasn't renewed and we don't want your money now"

With that being said, it wouldn't surprise me if Transport Scotland were to order another fleet from a different manufacturer. Talgo trains made in Scotland anyone?

 

[Class360/1]

I mean the decarbonisation plan could possibly mean- and there is a small chance that the good old 365’s might be used- after all, they were used as a stopgap on the Stirling line

 

[route101]

I mean the decarbonisation plan could possibly mean- and there is a small chance that the good old 365’s might be used- after all, they were used as a stopgap on the Stirling line

I wonder if the 365s will be scrapped by the time the line is wired.

 

[92002]

I wonder if the 365s will be scrapped by the time the line is wired.

Quite a few in store at Crewe looking for a home.

When they were last in Scotland with the 385 problems, they were a good stopgap, but had many miles on the clock. Not very reliable towards the end of their time.

More than likely another order of 385s or another new design.

 

[adamedwards]

Another quick way to boost the fleet would be to take 321s from Greater Anglia (e.g the Renatus air con upgraded ones) and turn them into more 320s by removing one carriage and cascading existing stock from else where in ScotRail. Or just use them as 4 cars anyway and take advantage of the fact that they are very similar to the 320s for maintenance. It may also be the case that less demand post covid may release stock used for peak extras. (Apologies to the moderators for this digression off the thread)

 

[92002]

Another quick way to boost the fleet would be to take 321s from Greater Anglia (e.g the Renatus air con upgraded ones) and turn them into more 320s by removing one carriage and cascading existing stock from else where in ScotRail. Or just use them as 4 cars anyway and take advantage of the fact that they are very similar to the 320s for maintenance. It may also be the case that less demand post covid may release stock used for peak extras. (Apologies to the moderators for this digression off the thread)

No doubt that has been considered. However is it worth all the work when the 320s will be due to get replaced in the next few years.

There probably could be a sizeable order to get additional trains for East Kilbride and the Kilmarnock branch, as well as replace the 318s and 320s.

As well as any new routes to be done in the master plan.

 

[Class 170101]

You can always put a new order in, it's not like Hitachi forgot how to make them.

Possibly a follow on might have been allowed but a new order of the same trains wouldn't have met 'new' safety standards (whatever these may or may not be) so may have not been allowed so it may not be a metter of Hitachi forgetting to make them.

 

[edwin_m]

I can't image they'd say "Oh, you didn't order any new trains when the franchise wasn't renewed and we don't want your money now"

With that being said, it wouldn't surprise me if Transport Scotland were to order another fleet from a different manufacturer. Talgo trains made in Scotland anyone?

Rules on competitive procurement don't allow you just to go to your favourite supplier. However, there would probably have been an option in the original order to buy more of the same at an agreed price (subject to inflation and other conditions). It's usually in the interests of both parties to do that, especially if the franchise might be required to expand the fleet later on. The supplier can produce more without the costs of a new design or the risk of bidding, and the customer who just wants to add to a successful fleet avoids an expensive competitive procurement that might end up with someone else winning. And if it wasn't successful they walk away from the option, which gives the supplier an incentive to make sure they work well. I suspect the franchise company that has the right to exercise the option still exists under the control of Transport Scotland.

 

[gingertom]

Rules on competitive procurement don't allow you just to go to your favourite supplier. However, there would probably have been an option in the original order to buy more of the same at an agreed price (subject to inflation and other conditions). It's usually in the interests of both parties to do that, especially if the franchise might be required to expand the fleet later on. The supplier can produce more without the costs of a new design or the risk of bidding, and the customer who just wants to add to a successful fleet avoids an expensive competitive procurement that might end up with someone else winning. And if it wasn't successful they walk away from the option, which gives the supplier an incentive to make sure they work well. I suspect the franchise company that has the right to exercise the option still exists under the control of Transport Scotland.

option was for an additional 10 sets. With East Kilbride, Barrhead, Tweedbank and Levenmouth next for wires, would 10 sets have been enough? I think not.

 

[Mordac]

Possibly a follow on might have been allowed but a new order of the same trains wouldn't have met 'new' safety standards (whatever these may or may not be) so may have not been allowed so it may not be a metter of Hitachi forgetting to make them.

What safety standards have changed since the 385s were introduced?

 

[Watershed]

option was for an additional 10 sets. With East Kilbride, Barrhead, Tweedbank and Levenmouth next for wires, would 10 sets have been enough? I think not.

It seems unlikely that Tweedbank will be be electrified in the same sort of timescale as the first two routes. 10 sets will be plenty for EK and Barrhead.

 

[route101]

I reckon new units for East Kilbride, over a cascade from another line. As why would you move Class 334s to EK and Barrhead.

 

[JonathanH]

As why would you move Class 334s to EK and Barrhead.

If the future level of ridership means that some formations on the North Clyde services can be cut to 3-car operation and there are spare units.

It would be a major win, cost wise, for EK and Barrhead electrification if the units needed could be found from the existing operations. BR electrification in the late 1980s / early 1990s was all about getting better utilisation from fleets to avoid the cost of new rolling stock.

 

[Clansman]

East Kilbride and Barrhead electrification will be utilised by 23m coached EMUs. That's already been decided, thus ruling 20m ones out completely. Remember that at peak times, East Killbride in particular struggles for capacity even with 3 x 156s, so why go for 20m coached units?

Personally 2 options to me are the most probable:

a) More 321 cascades to reform into 320s to displace Inverclyde 385s and 380s on former 314 runs
b) New EMUs of similar specs to 385s (if not 385s)

 

[gingertom]

if Scotrail want more 321 conversions they'd better hurry before they are scrapped. Competition rules mean there has to be a fresh tender for rolling stock, they can't just order more 385s. Although I suppose the tender could be written is such a way as to make it obvious, like "must be able to work in multiple with a 385, 100% compatible" With there being plans for discontinuous electrification and a rolling programme, it would make sense if part of the batch was battery/electric hybrids. This would allow decarbonisation whilst the wires go up, then move the units on to the next programme of works.

 

[hexagon789]

Has any mention been made as to the rolling stock for services post-electrification?

 

[waverley47]

Has any mention been made as to the rolling stock for services post-electrification?

Still working on that. Prevailing opinion at SR is 6 car 320/318 combos until such a time as a new order for more units is made.

The new order is likely to be 385s or equivalent, to cover a combination of Barrhead, East Kilbride, replacement of the last of the legacy mk3 stock, and to provide battery units for the Fife electrification. Hitachi has made a deal of offering battery 385s, however other units have been looked at.

*Note these will definitely be either new build or cascaded Electrostar stock from down south. The Electrostars appear to be homeless, but we shall see. The combination of number of new units needed for new services and replacement, as well as battery units needed for Fife means that it's likely to be a single order for the lot, and there aren't anywhere near enough new 23m units going spare to fill the gap.

Everything else that is currently homeless is headed for scrap or unsuitable, however that part belongs in speculative ideas. No announcement has been made yet, but expect a new order announcement at some point early next year if one is in the pipeline.

 

[hexagon789]

Still working on that. Prevailing opinion at SR is 6 car 320/318 combos until such a time as a new order for more units is made.

The new order is likely to be 385s or equivalent, to cover a combination of Barrhead, East Kilbride, replacement of the last of the legacy mk3 stock, and to provide battery units for the Fife electrification. Hitachi has made a deal of offering battery 385s, however other units have been looked at.

*Note these will definitely be either new build or cascaded Electrostar stock from down south. The Electrostars appear to be homeless, but we shall see. The combination of number of new units needed for new services and replacement, as well as battery units needed for Fife means that it's likely to be a single order for the lot, and there aren't anywhere near enough new 23m units going spare to fill the gap.

Everything else that is currently homeless is headed for scrap or unsuitable, however that part belongs in speculative ideas. No announcement has been made yet, but expect a new order announcement at some point early next year if one is in the pipeline.

Thank you, so a four-car 385 equivalent is the likely future stock?

 

[92002]

Still working on that. Prevailing opinion at SR is 6 car 320/318 combos until such a time as a new order for more units is made.

The new order is likely to be 385s or equivalent, to cover a combination of Barrhead, East Kilbride, replacement of the last of the legacy mk3 stock, and to provide battery units for the Fife electrification. Hitachi has made a deal of offering battery 385s, however other units have been looked at.

*Note these will definitely be either new build or cascaded Electrostar stock from down south. The Electrostars appear to be homeless, but we shall see. The combination of number of new units needed for new services and replacement, as well as battery units needed for Fife means that it's likely to be a single order for the lot, and there aren't anywhere near enough new 23m units going spare to fill the gap.

Everything else that is currently homeless is headed for scrap or unsuitable, however that part belongs in speculative ideas. No announcement has been made yet, but expect a new order announcement at some point early next year if one is in the pipeline.

Had heard that the 379 Elerctrostsrs had found a home to replace 365s out of Kings Cross. Although there are many other Elrctrostsrs that could need a home.

From a point of view of training for staff and maintenance inventory the ideal stock would be a Hitachi 385 though.

 

[Southsider]

Had heard that the 379 Elerctrostsrs had found a home to replace 365s out of Kings Cross. Although there are many other Elrctrostsrs that could need a home.

From a point of view of training for staff and maintenance inventory the ideal stock would be a Hitachi 385 though.

It had been suggested up thread that 321s would be used but they seem to be heading to the scrapyard at some pace.

 

[92002]

It had been suggested up thread that 321s would be used but they seem to be heading to the scrapyard at some pace.

There are after all just a bit old. Even our own 320s and 318s will be heading off shortly.

 

[73128]

It had been suggested up thread that 321s would be used but they seem to be heading to the scrapyard at some pace.

The 30 Renatus sets deserve another life somewhere after the money was spent on them quite recently.

 

[Carntyne]

The 30 Renatus sets deserve another life somewhere after the money was spent on them quite recently.

I don't think there is logic in extending platform lengths to 8 car then using trains which are shorter than the current fleet. 20 v 23m

 

[380101]

The 30 Renatus sets deserve another life somewhere after the money was spent on them quite recently.

The project team at ScotRail have pretty much dismissed any idea of using the Renatus 321s or any other refurbished stock.

 

[hexagon789]

The project team at ScotRail have pretty much dismissed any idea of using the Renatus 321s or any other refurbished stock.

A new order to cover a variety of purposes in terms of older stock replacement, electrification extension etc is far more sensible in the long run

 

[380101]

A new order to cover a variety of purposes in terms of older stock replacement, electrification extension etc is far more sensible in the long run

Hopefully they learn from the 385 debacle and steer well clear of Hitachi!