What rolling stock will be delivered in 2012?

[cslusarc]

Does anyone have a comprehensive list on what new rolling stock will be delivered next year in 2012?

 

[MCR247]

So far: None.


That is unless Bombardier still hasn't finished it's 172s...

 

[jopsuk]

certainly no mainline passenger stock- might be some S-stock for the London Underground, and maybe some freight locos? Over two years since any passenger stock was ordered, clock's still running (as TL hasn't been ordered yet)

 

[cslusarc]

Is it too late to order any National Rail rolling stock for delivery in 2012? Is the lack of orders do the the World Financial Crisis.

If its not too late, I'd like to see some 5/6-car EMUs ordered to help fullfill the DfT's goals of having more 10 and 12-car trains. I'd like to see a decision to implement Operation Thor plus the development of Electro-Diesel Bi-Mode Interurban and Suburban trains where the Interurban trains operate at 100 mph (electric) and 75 mph (diesel) and the Suburban trains operate at 75 mph (electric) and 60 mph (diesel).

 

[jopsuk]

It's partly down to the indescion currently at the DfT over the future of franchises- there's a couple of franchises that should be up for renewal that haven't been decided yet, they don't even know how long they'll be. Paralysis at the DfT, their micromanaging and some uncertainty about the extent of near-future electrification in the North West and Wales is the big reason Pacers aren't being replaced yet, and the Intercity Express Programme to replace the HSTs is a mess. The Thameslink and Crossrail orders are now rather late, which will push those projects back a bit.

Meanwhile, thanks to the post-privitisation push to modernise a lot of the railways that still were using 60s built stock, the London commuter TOCs don't require new stock.

 

[Skimble19]

So FCC doesn't need replacements for it's 313's?!

 

[anthony263]

So FCC doesn't need replacements for it's 313's?!

i would say the class 313's are ok for a few more years, but i think in my opinion a replacement should be ordered for them by 2019 as they are getting on a bit.

 

[Eng274]

i would say the class 313's are ok for a few more years, but i think in my opinion a replacement should be ordered for them by 2019 as they are getting on a bit.

The slightly younger 314s in Strathclyde have been earmarked for withdrawal/scrap in 2015ish, what they'll be replaced with I don't know, possibly another order of 380s which would initiate a cascade of 318s/320s.

If the 313s have had a major mechanical refit recently, they may be good to go until 2019, although I guess many commuters and enthusiasts would rather see the back of them.

 

[Erniescooper]

Does anyone have a comprehensive list on what new rolling stock will be delivered next year in 2012?

The last of the four new Pendolinos and the start of the delivery of the extra two cars.

 

[route:oxford]

A wise government would probably sanction the ordering of say 30 3 car DEMU Pacer replacements a year for the next 3 years.

Build them with a dropped section in the roof for a future Panto along with space inside for a transformer (should the time ever come for them to be wholly converted to electric traction).

Then over the next 3 years allocate 5 units a year to FGW and 25 per year to Northern.

Ideally it would help keep a UK production line running and maintain industry skills for at least 3 years and replace the exhausted Pacer Fleet

 

[T163R]

I suppose it will be a bit early for Thameslink and Crossrail... (if they exist one day )

 

[bluenoxid]

Does anyone have a comprehensive list on what new rolling stock will be delivered next year in 2012?

The extra Pendo's and their carriages are the only things that I can think of.

 

[pemma]

So FCC doesn't need replacements for it's 313's?!

No they don't as they'll be ample EMUs available to cascade after delivery of the Thameslink stock (317s, 319s, 321s, 365s?) The newly electrified lines will probably only require around half of these.

Remember EMUs are expected to last around 10 years longer than DMUs so unless the 313s are needing costly regular work doing to them to keep going then they aren't any more in need of being replaced than 142s and 150s.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

A wise government would probably sanction the ordering of say 30 3 car DEMU Pacer replacements a year for the next 3 years.

Build them with a dropped section in the roof for a future Panto along with space inside for a transformer (should the time ever come for them to be wholly converted to electric traction).

Then over the next 3 years allocate 5 units a year to FGW and 25 per year to Northern.

Ideally it would help keep a UK production line running and maintain industry skills for at least 3 years and replace the exhausted Pacer Fleet

I think 3 car replacements would be a very good idea. However, I'm not sure on your numbers to allocate to different operators.

From Sep/Oct the Pacer allocation will be:

ATW - 15 142s and 15 143s
FGW - 8 143s
Northern - 79 142s, 13 2 car 144s and 10 3 car 144s.

In total they'll be 140 Pacers in operation but I don't think 90 3 car units can replace them due to much less flexibility.

I'd suggest the new units all go to Northern Rail, for a consistent fleet and to be able to deal better with any teething problems with the new units, then FGW and ATW would get cascaded Sprinters from Northern.

I also think EMT need to be benefit from any cascade as well.

Maybe the following should happen:

Northern 142s, 144s, 150, 153s, 155s all replaced by new trains.
Northern 150/1s cascaded to FGW to replace 143s and for extra capacity.
Northern 150/2s cascaded to ATW to replace 142/3s and for extra capacity.
Northern 153s and 155s cascaded to EMT for extra capacity.

I've ignored TPE in this although I think they'll need extra DMUs as well as the promised EMUs. In this case I think it would be best to either:
1. Order extra 172s for LM and cascade 170s to TPE.
2. Order new units for TPE for both extra capacity and 170 replacement and send the 170s to LM for extra capacity.

 

[Fincra5]

i would say the class 313's are ok for a few more years, but i think in my opinion a replacement should be ordered for them by 2019 as they are getting on a bit.

Southern are fitting GSM-R to the 313s. Looks like they are going to be around for a wee while.

 

[jon0844]

If the 313s have had a major mechanical refit recently, they may be good to go until 2019, although I guess many commuters and enthusiasts would rather see the back of them.

They're generally fine, although the 'new' FCC 313/1s don't have grab rails in the vestibules which is a PITA as you have nothing to hold onto in the middle.

They've got CCTV and if they got CIS or a refurb like Southern did, and were mechanically sound and not at risk of rusting to bits, they could last many more years.

Of course, I'd like new trains - with aircon - and if a newer train had faster acceleration they may speed up the all-station stopping services. Toilets would also be a welcome addition, given these trains sometimes work on very late night services where station toilets are closed.

Southern proves there's no reason not to refurb the 313s, as they have presumably established they're mechanically sound.

The change of franchises, and rumours of the Northern City Line being eaten up by London Overground, may be stopping anything radical happening with the FCC stock though.

 

[Skoodle]

I do believe we may be seeing some more 378s for the start of the Dalston Junction - Clapham service next year.

 

[MCR247]

I doubt they'll be ordered and built by next year?

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I think he is thinking of 378 255, 378 256 and 378 257? Already on order, not yet delivered - not sure if they've been built yet...

 

[swt_passenger]

I doubt they'll be ordered and built by next year?

Ordered two years ago - they ought to be able to deliver them well before they are needed...

"East London Line Extension Phase Two
...
"An order for an additional three 4-car Capital Star, electric trains has been added to the 54 trains already on order from Bombardier.
The new trains will be dual voltage to allow operation across the London Overground network."

Page 3 of: http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/corporate/Item04-Commissioners-Report-June-2009.pdf

Also discovered a report in Today's Railways UK of them being under construction as far back as Jan 2011...

 

[MCR247]

Oh, I thought he meant additional ones to those additional ones

 

[cslusarc]

No they don't as they'll be ample EMUs available to cascade after delivery of the Thameslink stock (317s, 319s, 321s, 365s?) The newly electrified lines will probably only require around half of these.

Remember EMUs are expected to last around 10 years longer than DMUs so unless the 313s are needing costly regular work doing to them to keep going then they aren't any more in need of being replaced than 142s and 150s.

So from what I understand there are 290 carriages among those 140 Pacer units but a large number of them are in 2-car units. What I'm suggesting is not that this new EDMU will replace the Pacer directly but will be deployed are routes that are partially electrified allowing the Sprinter to cascade unto wholly unelectrified routes. I do think that for some branch lines like those in the Thames Valley a newly designed light innovative regional railcar like the Parry People Mover or those made by Alstom (Coradia LINT), Bombardier (Talent), Siemens (Desiro - light railcar version) or Stadler (GTW, FLIRT or Regio-Shuttle) but with UK high floor variants would be neccessary.

A wise government would probably sanction the ordering of say 30 3 car DEMU Pacer replacements a year for the next 3 years.
.....
Then over the next 3 years allocate 5 units a year to FGW and 25 per year to Northern.

I'd like to see an annual deilivery rate consisting of a minimum of 8 suburban/interurban carriages per month delivered for atleast the next 4 years in a variety of formations between 2 and 6 cars per unit.

The last of the four new Pendolinos and the start of the delivery of the extra two cars.

Oops, I had thought they were already delivered

An additional recent thought is that I'd like to see NXEA replace the Class 90/Mark III coach service between LST and NRW with an EMU train configured for the length of the route displacing the Class 90/Mark III coaches to lines capable of utilizing the 110 mph speed of the Class 90 locomotive. I think that East Coast, Virgin, London Midland or First Capital Connect could better utilize the extra 10 mph speed.

 

[YorkshireBear]

An additional recent thought is that I'd like to see NXEA replace the Class 90/Mark III coach service between LST and NRW with an EMU train configured for the length of the route displacing the Class 90/Mark III coaches to lines capable of utilizing the 110 mph speed of the Class 90 locomotive. I think that East Coast, Virgin, London Midland or First Capital Connect could better utilize the extra 10 mph speed.

Or an electrfified Midland mainline?

Virgin wont want them, london midland might, first capital connect might, i think best bet for 90's and mk3's would be LM or Midland mainline electrified.

 

[pemma]

So from what I understand there are 290 carriages among those 140 Pacer units but a large number of them are in 2-car units. What I'm suggesting is not that this new EDMU will replace the Pacer directly but will be deployed are routes that are partially electrified allowing the Sprinter to cascade unto wholly unelectrified routes.

Your earlier post implied that the pantograph would be added at a later stage, rather than at build.

With Northern Rail there are very few lines that only see Pacers. Most lines see a mix of Pacers and Sprinters even if in the case of some lines it's 90% Pacer operated and 10% Sprinter operated.

Also, most Northern 142s are used in the North West where there aren't all that many services that don't currently run under at least a short section of overhead electrics or will after electrification in the next few years.

I do think that for some branch lines like those in the Thames Valley

Do remember that while branch lines remain in the FGW area that in the North of England there are very few local services that don't involve running on a mainline for at least part of the service.

 

[Class172]

Or an electrfified Midland mainline?

Virgin wont want them, london midland might, first capital connect might, i think best bet for 90's and mk3's would be LM or Midland mainline electrified.

I presume if the 90+MKIIIs went to LM they would displace 350s and they'd go somewhere else or strengthen other services. I can easily imagine what an LM MK3 would look like...

 

[swt_passenger]

Oh, I thought he meant additional ones to those additional ones

Oh, right... so the answer should have been "apart from the three already on order, and yet to be delivered, the Clapham Junction extension uses existing stock".

Which I have assumed (for a while now) means that the current (54 unit) fleet was sized for other proposed services that never started - for example the 6 tph to/from Crystal Palace mentioned in the South London RUS...

By the way, does anyone know what the peaktime usage of the existing LO fleet is, especially since the May changes to the NLL and WLL?

 

[Skoodle]

There is no peak / offpeak on London Overground. Full service from start until finish. Well apart from Sunday mornings, but then is slowly started to a full service later in the afternoon.

 

[thefab444]

Not entirely true, there is an increased frequency in the peak period between Willesden and Stratford, roughly every 7 minutes instead of every 10 minutes.

 

[swt_passenger]

There is no peak / offpeak on London Overground. Full service from start until finish. Well apart from Sunday mornings, but then is slowly started to a full service later in the afternoon.

There is on weekdays both before 22nd May (when there were peak only Stratford - Clapham Jn services) and since the 22nd May, when there are 4tph Stratford - Clapham Jn running all the way through in the peaks only.

 

[Nym]

A wise government would probably sanction the ordering of say 30 3 car DEMU Pacer replacements a year for the next 3 years.

Errr, why an DEMU?

There really isn't any benifits for a suburban unit until it becomes 4 or more cars, due to the much much much heavyer weight of traction systems. If they where 4 cars, then it could work, but remember the transformer for a 3 car unit takes up about 6 or 7m under the centre unit. (look at a 323). And transformers are the same now as they've ever been...

If we where ordering DEMUs in a suburban layout it would be for TPE to displace their 185s elsewhere...

I would be looking at a near total fleet replacement for it, ie. All electric only units would be used on appropriate routes. And the DEMU units on combined routes. MIA - Cleethorpes, MIA - Barrow etc.

And they would be 4 cars long with through gangways. In the immidiate future to be running all TPE North journys, possibly with some 185s retained for TPE south, or maybe not in the intrest of standardisation.

The only problem would be finding routes for 51 lard a***d 3 car units.

SWT Maybe, send all their 158 and 159 units oop norf?
ATW, like for like replacment of their 158 and 175 units, again send to NT to displace pacers.
Scotrail?

 

[Skimble19]

No they don't as they'll be ample EMUs available to cascade after delivery of the Thameslink stock (317s, 319s, 321s, 365s?) The newly electrified lines will probably only require around half of these.

Remember EMUs are expected to last around 10 years longer than DMUs so unless the 313s are needing costly regular work doing to them to keep going then they aren't any more in need of being replaced than 142s and 150s

Except for the fact the TL stock won't be able to fit down the NCL.. the 313's aren't being replaced as part of the TL order. FCC have 12 317's who's home is most likely to be NXEA, as is that of the 321's. 365's are likely to be staying put, with all the 319's going off to the North and GW.