What should we do with empty statue plinths?

[Busaholic]

I was totally opposed to the U.S,/U.K. invasion of Irag, so, according to some on here, I should have been appalled at the pulling down of that huge Saddam Hussein statue by local people (or, 'mob' as some on here would describe them.) On the contrary, like the demolition of a disused chimney or block of flats, I applauded every second of it - genuine democracy in action from those who'd suffered the oppression and murderous ways of their hated 'leader'. Equally (even more so) when the Berlin Wall started to be demolished by Berliners on that evening in 1989 which happened to be my 20th wedding anniversary, I rejoiced. Had the correct democratic procedures been followed? If they had, it'd still be there.

I attended Bristol University as a mature student in the 1980s and was not only surprised but genuinely amazed to find the Colston name still attached to so many things, particularly after the St Paul's 'race riots' which preceded those of Brixton by several months, and were a pointer as to how many concerns of the local populace were not being addressed by the authorities, The Colston statue should have been removed many years, even decades ago, but, regrettably, Bristol has long been inexplicably badly run at almost every level.. I studied Social Administration so was all too aware that the 'best practice' we were being taught at the top of Park Street was not remotely being practised 'down the hill'.

On the whole, I'm not for wholesale removal of statues of people whose 'ideals' or 'adventures' wouldn't pass muster these days, but I think Colston was the exception and, rough justice or not, justice was served here. The local police commander on the day said it all in his reaction when asked if he'd done the right thing in not attempting to stop the pulling down of the statue said (with eyes blazing) that he had, and I don't doubt him. Frankly, only an anti-anti-racist would disagree, and I feel those of that ilk should be described in a less opaque way and be acknowledged for what they are.

 

[najaB]

The Colston statue should have been removed many years, even decades ago, but, regrettably, Bristol has long been inexplicably badly run at almost every level.

Many in the The Society of Merchant Venturers would agree with the bolded part of your post, but for exactly the opposite reasons!

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I was totally opposed to the U.S,/U.K. invasion of Irag, so, according to some on here, I should have been appalled at the pulling down of that huge Saddam Hussein statue by local people (or, 'mob' as some on here would describe them.) On the contrary, like the demolition of a disused chimney or block of flats, I applauded every second of it - genuine democracy in action from those who'd suffered the oppression and murderous ways of their hated 'leader'. Equally (even more so) when the Berlin Wall started to be demolished by Berliners on that evening in 1989 which happened to be my 20th wedding anniversary, I rejoiced. Had the correct democratic procedures been followed? If they had, it'd still be there.

Not really comparable situations though were they. Iraq was not a democracy - it was a country in the midst of a revolution, and there were no democratic procedures you could follow. There was also at the time no sense in which you could reasonably say Saddam Hussein's statue was historic, or that Saddam Hussein lived in a different time in which values were different. And the Berlin wall wasn't a statue - it wasn't there to memorialise anything historic: It was there, right up until it's removal, in order to deny people their rights. Strictly speaking you probably could say that it should've been left to local authorities to decide what to do with it, but if I recall correctly, I'm not sure there were any functioning local authorities at the time it was destroyed - since the wall was located in East Germany, and the East German Government had basically collapsed.

The local police commander on the day said it all in his reaction when asked if he'd done the right thing in not attempting to stop the pulling down of the statue said (with eyes blazing) that he had, and I don't doubt him. Frankly, only an anti-anti-racist would disagree, and I feel those of that ilk should be described in a less opaque way and be acknowledged for what they are.

But as I understand it, the police commander didn't say he'd done the right thing because of any opinions about the statue. Rather, he did the pragmatic thing to avoid violence (i'm tempted to say, to avoid inflaming the mob). In much the same way that, in the utterly disgusting scenes we saw today in London, on any reasonable moral or legal argument, the police probably should've arrested an awful lot of those far right thugs. They didn't, presumably for pragmatic reasons to avoid violence (to avoid inflaming the mob, again). But somehow I don't think you'd be arguing that in any way implies those thugs were right.

Personally I feel pretty worried that the country has reached the point where the police stand by for fear of violence while people (whether BLM protesters or far right protesters) openly break the law. I don't think that's the kind of society any of us should be aspiring to live in.

 

[gysev]

Equally (even more so) when the Berlin Wall started to be demolished by Berliners on that evening in 1989 which happened to be my 20th wedding anniversary, I rejoiced. Had the correct democratic procedures been followed? If they had, it'd still be there.

You forget to mention that there are still quite a few streets named after communist leaders in eastern Germany, ranging from Karl Marx to Ernst Thälmann and Wilhelm Pieck. Despite 42 years of brutal communist rule, people seem to be able to place everything in its context without forming violent mobs that want to erase history.

 

[alex397]

You forget to mention that there are still quite a few streets named after communist leaders in eastern Germany, ranging from Karl Marx to Ernst Thälmann and Wilhelm Pieck. Despite 42 years of brutal communist rule, people seem to be able to place everything in its context without forming violent mobs that want to erase history.

Yes it is surprising some of those names have been kept. Although it could be controversial to remove them as there is quite a bit of ‘Ostalgie’, a nostalgia for the DDR, in Eastern Germany.
However, elsewhere in Germany many streetnames have been renamed, including in Berlin where streets with links to the colonial past were renamed in 2018

 

[Busaholic]

You forget to mention that there are still quite a few streets named after communist leaders in eastern Germany, ranging from Karl Marx to Ernst Thälmann and Wilhelm Pieck. Despite 42 years of brutal communist rule, people seem to be able to place everything in its context without forming violent mobs that want to erase history.

I haven't forgotten to mention it at all. Colston Street in Bristol is still there, as is Colston's School and even Colston Hall hasn't acquired a new name. The matter of the statue is on an entirely different level, it being in a prominent position in what is known locally as The Centre. As I said in my post, I regard this statue of this individual, whose fortune almost wholly derived from the slave trade, as a provocation way beyond that of any of the monuments to other figures currently under discussion, in a city that, far more than any other in the U.K., is rightly regarded as a centre for the pernicious trade in black people from Africa. I note nobody is demanding that it be reinstated to its plinth, beyond perhaps the 'gentlemen' behind yesterday's disgusting events around Westminster.

Your argument doesn't pass muster in any regard, as a matter of fact. I visited Leningrad in 1974 and marvelled at the Hermitage Museum and Winter Palace, but now I don't find any mention of the city on a map.Neither have I heard of a strasse or platz in Germany named after Adolf Hitler or Heinrich Himmler, so perhaps the nation doesn't have the perspective to place their history in context according to your analysis. Doubtless there will be some in Bavaria, in particular, who see this as an historical wrong, and are even now campaigning on a forum in Germany devoted mainly to railways but dominated by angry, middle-aged, white, single males to right this.

 

[gysev]

I haven't forgotten to mention it at all. Colston Street in Bristol is still there, as is Colston's School and even Colston Hall hasn't acquired a new name. The matter of the statue is on an entirely different level, it being in a prominent position in what is known locally as The Centre. As I said in my post, I regard this statue of this individual, whose fortune almost wholly derived from the slave trade, as a provocation way beyond that of any of the monuments to other figures currently under discussion, in a city that, far more than any other in the U.K., is rightly regarded as a centre for the pernicious trade in black people from Africa. I note nobody is demanding that it be reinstated to its plinth, beyond perhaps the 'gentlemen' behind yesterday's disgusting events around Westminster.

As far as I remember, I did not demand to retain the statue. I just don't like "street justice", it always turns bad.

Your argument doesn't pass muster in any regard, as a matter of fact. I visited Leningrad in 1974 and marvelled at the Hermitage Museum and Winter Palace, but now I don't find any mention of the city on a map.Neither have I heard of a strasse or platz in Germany named after Adolf Hitler or Heinrich Himmler, so perhaps the nation doesn't have the perspective to place their history in context according to your analysis. Doubtless there will be some in Bavaria, in particular, who see this as an historical wrong, and are even now campaigning on a forum in Germany devoted mainly to railways but dominated by angry, middle-aged, white, single males to right this.

The name of Leningrad is gone, indeed. Not gone are the thousends of statues of Marx and Lenin (and even Stalin in some places) all over Russia. My point was that if people in eastern Germany can live with their past without turning to violence and have a civil debate, why can't other people do the same? After all, communist rule is very recent and many victims (and perpetrators) are still alive. It's difficult to understand then why some talk about crimes that happened 200 years ago to justify their own acts.

And where do you draw the line? When even comedy is targeted, things become ugly. Even worse: the uproar about "gone with the wind". Do the people who condemn this movie realise it was also an important victory for civil rights? After all, actress Hattie McDaniel was the first black woman who won an Oscar. But who cares?

By the way, could you give me the name of that German railway forum where "angry middle-aged single men" ask for streets named after Adolf? Or do you just have some prejudice about Germans?

 

[najaB]

Even worse: the uproar about "gone with the wind". Do the people who condemn this movie realise it was also an important victory for civil rights? After all, actress Hattie McDaniel was the first black woman who won an Oscar. But who cares?

I really don't get the uproar around Gone With the Wind either - it's a terrible movie, I've tried to watch it several times and just can't get through it. The thing is almost four hours long! And

 

[DerekC]

Even worse: the uproar about "gone with the wind". Do the people who condemn this movie realise it was also an important victory for civil rights? After all, actress Hattie McDaniel was the first black woman who won an Oscar. But who cares?

Actually people do care - but they also watch the film with its stereotypes. And they remember that Hattie McDaniel was denied access to the premier, was only allowed into the awards ceremony (in an all-whites hotel) on sufferance, and was not allowed to go to the party afterwards. And it look another fifty years before the next black woman won an Oscar. So a small victory, perhaps, but in a struggle that still goes on - and that's the point.

 

[Ashley Hill]

Going back to the OP,perhaps Vera Lynn would be a candidate. I can't think of a reason why not.

 

[DerekC]

Going back to the OP,perhaps Vera Lynn would be a candidate. I can't think of a reason why not.

Excellent idea. The following tweet is quite interesting. The statue is actually Gracie Fields and it's in Rochdale.

 

[Bedpan]

Brilliant idea.

Who is Brendon Hope? The nonsense tweet is headed "Top Global Tweets"!

 

[MarkyT]

Not gone are the thousends of statues of Marx and Lenin (and even Stalin in some places) all over Russia.

Many Marxes and Lenins went after communism, although a fair few remain across the former USSR, Comecon countries and elsewhere. MOST Stalins went a long time ago, before the end of the USSR usually. Personally I'm very glad Colston has gone from such a prominent pedestal in Bristol. The story of his dramatic exit has highlighted his life in all its aspects far more than his rarely observed likeness on a traffic island ever could. The felling was a work of performance art in itself and no humans were injured nor any significant other property damaged in the process as far as I know. There's absolutely nothing wrong with removing and replacing statues from time to time. Some former heroes fall out of favour, are revealed to be not who they were claimed to be, or simply become irrelevant. The best plinths in the most prominent sites are limited in number. Public art must and will evolve, like society, its heroes, and life itself.

 

[Senex]

The debate since the end of communism about statues, and the names of streets, buildings, even of towns and cities, etc has been very interesting to follow over many years and it still goes on. There has been some interesting humour about in the name-changes of places like St Petersburg and Chemnitz.

For myself, I'd happily see most statues gone. If they don't commemorate kings and generals who exploited the people and got many of them needlessly slaughtered, then they commemorate people like Colston who certainly shew a mixed past. So in that sense, yes, I'm glad to see his image gone from a prominent place in Bristol. But I object very much to the mob rule, with the police standing by and failing to enforce order, that we saw in its felling. Although I certainly wouldn't buy the Daily Mail, I do look at it on line from time to time, and yesterday there was an interesting contribution by Piers Morgan about the fell-a-statue movement in the USA moving on to figures like Columbus and Washington and how the effect of this could actually be to strengthen the abominable Trump's chances of re-election. Could the similar movement here end up with exactly the opposite of what it wants, strengthenin the Tory vote and ensuring a long-term future for Patel as Home Secretary? See: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...-Trump-elected-rioting-letting-fireworks.html.

 

[najaB]

The best plinths in the most prominent sites are limited in number. Public art must and will evolve, like society, its heroes, and life itself.

Well put!

 

[DynamicSpirit]

But I object very much to the mob rule, with the police standing by and failing to enforce order, that we saw in its felling. Although I certainly wouldn't buy the Daily Mail, I do look at it on line from time to time, and yesterday there was an interesting contribution by Piers Morgan about the fell-a-statue movement in the USA moving on to figures like Columbus and Washington and how the effect of this could actually be to strengthen the abominable Trump's chances of re-election. Could the similar movement here end up with exactly the opposite of what it wants, strengthenin the Tory vote and ensuring a long-term future for Patel as Home Secretary? See: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...-Trump-elected-rioting-letting-fireworks.html.

I suspect that's already happened. Remember, at the time that all the BLM stuff broke, the Tory vote in the opinion polls was in free-fall because of the Dominic Cummings saga. I can't offhand find the link but I do recall that the first poll conducted just after the mob fell-a-statue thing in Bristol showed that free fall had suddenly stopped and the Tory vote had very slightly strengthened instead. Of course, there are 4-ish years until the next general election and this will all be political ancient history by then.

This quote from a Guardian article shortly afterwards is also potentially revealing:

One Tory [MP], representing a former “red wall” Labour seat said Starmer had a significant amount of work to do to eradicate the perception that Labour was soft on law and order. They said: “If there’s one thing my voters can’t stand, it’s rioting. To them, it’s an anathema to the democratic process.” They said their inbox was full of messages, including from ex-Labour voters, on the protests over the weekend. “People don’t want soft-touch policing.”

Ben Bradley, the MP for Mansfield, which turned Tory after 100 years in 2017, said: “99% of my feedback from constituents is horror at the lack of law and order and at the lack of care for others by those breaking lockdown. Many have said they were sympathetic but not now, following the violence.”

 

[Western Sunset]

I can think of one person who, single-handed, vastly improved the recognition of a small town in Co Durham during the present pandemic. By raising its profile on a visit, the local tourist board will be eternally grateful. So watch out for a statue of you know who, next to the local opticians.

 

[Senex]

I can think of one person who, single-handed, vastly improved the recognition of a small town in Co Durham during the present pandemic. By raising its profile on a visit, the local tourist board will be eternally grateful. So watch out for a statue of you know who, next to the local opticians.

Will he be invited back to unveil it?