What trains will virgin be using on the east coast main line

[Joshrowlands]

Hi, I've been interested in trains since the start of this year and as the days go by I become more and more interested in trains and the rail network, I know quite a lot but no where near as a lot of people, Virgin trains are my favourite company, I was just wondering when they start running the east coast main line next year what trains will they be using and will they be brand new or will they be already used ones? If someone could reply that would be so helpful I've been wondering for weeks and lots of details would be great too, the more I can learn about things the better

 

[Rich McLean]

Hi, I've been interested in trains since the start of this year and as the days go by I become more and more interested in trains and the rail network, I know quite a lot but no where near as a lot of people, Virgin trains are my favourite company, I was just wondering when they start running the east coast main line next year what trains will they be using and will they be brand new or will they of already been used ones? If someone could reply that would be so helpful I've been wondering for weeks and lots of details would be great too, the more I can learn about things the better

Same stock as now until 2019 when they will get IEP

 

[NSEFAN]

They currently use class 91 + Mk 4 electric trains, and class 43 HST diesel trains. As said, in 2019 they will receive new IEP trains which have been procured by the government. These will be a combination of electric-only and "bi-mode" (electric / diesel combo) sets.

 

[Stats]

Virgin Trains East Coast is scheduled to receive Super Express Trains (SETs) from 2018. The Intercity Express Programme (IEP) referred to above is the programme that delivers the trains and services and maintains them once delivered. SETs will be built by Hitachi and some more information can be found at
http://www.agilitytrains.com/east-coast-main-line
http://www.hitachirail-eu.com/super-express-iep_57.html

The first train to be delivered to East Coast, according to the published agreement, is due to be a 9 car bi-mode in August 2018. They are then due to receive 1 new 9 car bi-mode each week until November 2018. These will replace the HSTs. From November 2018 until February 2019 they are due to receive a 5 car electric unit. Then between February 2019 and April 2019 the 5 car bi-mode units are due to be delivered. Finally between May 2019 and February 2020 they are due to receive the 9 car electric sets.

 

[thealexweb]

Five car sets? Even with seats in the end vehicles this surely sounds like a reduction in capacity compared to 2+9.

 

[alexl92]

Five car sets? Even with seats in the end vehicles this surely sounds like a reduction in capacity compared to 2+9.

My guess is that the 5-car units will be used either in pairs or for runs to places like Harrogate or Bradford which have a lower demand.

 

[yorkie]

when they start running the east coast main line next year what trains will they be using and will they be brand new or will they be already used ones?

The new trains won't be ready for the start of the new franchise. Here's a 488-post thread East Coast IEPs Ordered - Class 800 to get you started I'm sure there will be more recent threads discussing progress.

Edit: here's one discussing the specification. There are numerous more threads discussing details, including How much clearance needed for IEP? which has been active today. Enjoy!

 

[Suraggu]

My guess is that the 5-car units will be used either in pairs or for runs to places like Harrogate or Bradford which have a lower demand.

Bang on the ball. InterCity railways proposed timetable includes 2x 5car on the main part of the routes to maximize the amount of available paths on the ECML and then on parts of the route they will split such as Doncaster/Leeds/Darlington/Edinburgh (Stirling -London is likely to be 5 car Bi-Mode until Edinburgh then couple up to another 5 car).

To the OP remember Virgin Trains East Coast is basically branding and that's it. Stagecoach are running the day to day bits of the franchise with ex EC/Nat-Ex/GNER/BR. Don't tar everyone with the same Virgin brush.

 

[ExRes]

This could be a golden opportunity for both the 67s and D78 stock, extra 125mph loco hauled sets with plenty of standing room

 

[route:oxford]

(Stirling -London is likely to be 5 car Bi-Mode until Edinburgh then couple up to another 5 car).

The Stirling service is due to start within the next 6 months and will operate earlier than the current Chieftan service.

I'd estimate that it will operate on the current 07:23 path from Dunblane to Edinburgh (BofA 07:26, Stirling 07:30, Larbert 07:40, Haymarket 08:16) arriving in Edinburgh at 08:21. Then continue as the current 08:30 service to Kings X, with a very attractive 12:51 arrival into London.

This will clearly have to operate as an HST for the first 3 years at least.

Trouble is, this service will be very popular with commuters and the longer distance traveller alike. I certainly wouldn't forecast a fully loaded service in the first instance - but after 3 years, I'm not sure if you could get away with reducing the service in length by 3.5 carriages.

 

[Suraggu]

The Stirling service is due to start within the next 6 months and will operate earlier than the current Chieftan service.

I'd estimate that it will operate on the current 07:23 path from Dunblane to Edinburgh (BofA 07:26, Stirling 07:30, Larbert 07:40, Haymarket 08:16) arriving in Edinburgh at 08:21. Then continue as the current 08:30 service to Kings X, with a very attractive 12:51 arrival into London.

This will clearly have to operate as an HST for the first 3 years at least.

Trouble is, this service will be very popular with commuters and the longer distance traveller alike. I certainly wouldn't forecast a fully loaded service in the first instance - but after 3 years, I'm not sure if you could get away with reducing the service in length by 3.5 carriages.

Obviously it will be HST hauled until IEP arrives, I was speaking from IEP introduction.
0830 EDB -KGX is formed from 1S01 0625 NCL -EDB and looks likely for the foreseeable future. EC can on handle 3 EC HST's per night so I wouldn't be surprised if 0930 EDB -KGX is extended to start from Stirling.

 

[route:oxford]

Obviously it will be HST hauled until IEP arrives, I was speaking from IEP introduction.
0830 EDB -KGX is formed from 1S01 0625 NCL -EDB and looks likely for the foreseeable future. EC can on handle 3 EC HST's per night so I wouldn't be surprised if 0930 EDB -KGX is extended to start from Stirling.

Is there the option to stable it at Perth instead then if EC is full? I think the The Chieftain sleeps there when there is problems on the HML.

The Trossachs/Fair City Chieftain really would need to arrive in London before 1pm in order to differentiate it from the Highland Chieftan.

 

[Suraggu]

Is there the option to stable it at Perth instead then if EC is full? I think the The Chieftain sleeps there when there is problems on the HML.

The Trossachs/Fair City Chieftain really would need to arrive in London before 1pm in order to differentiate it from the Highland Chieftan.

That is in an emergency situation or planned engineering works. EC have enough work as it is the depot is basically full every night with TPE, AXC, NR (Royal Scotsman in the summer). When IEP comes EC will be upgraded to accommodate.
Stabling at Perth would not work as the HST would need fuel and some form of overnight check. My money is on 0930 EDB -KGX or 0630 EDB -KGX to be extended.

 

[455driver]

Virgin wont be using any trains on the ECML because they are just a (very) junior partner in the franchise!

Stagecoach, on the other hand, will be using the IEPs from 2019 though.

 

[Willr2094]

Initially Virgin/Stagecoach will use the existing East Coast fleet, which is Class 91 AC electric locomotives with rakes of Mark 4 coaches plus DVT, as well as HST diesel electric trains.

 

[Darandio]

Initially Virgin/Stagecoach will use the existing East Coast fleet, which is Class 91 AC electric locomotives with rakes of Mark 4 coaches plus DVT, as well as HST diesel electric trains.

Which has already been outlined above, many times???

 

[najaB]

Stabling at Perth would not work as the HST would need fuel and some form of overnight check.

Could it not be fueled at Craigentinny and then be moved up to Perth to be cleaned and stabled? It can't be that hard to find a path at that time of night.

 

[Stats]

Obviously it will be HST hauled until IEP arrives, I was speaking from IEP introduction.
0830 EDB -KGX is formed from 1S01 0625 NCL -EDB and looks likely for the foreseeable future.

That service is formed from the only HST to stable overnight at Newcastle. As that set will be required for the Sunderland service there is going to have to be some shuffling of diagrams with a 225 doing the morning Newcastle to Edinburgh service instead. The 0830 from Edinburgh at the moment goes on to form the 1400 KGX to Aberdeen service so needs to be a HST. Of course, with the daytime Newcastle terminators being extended to/from Edinburgh there is going to have to be a reorganisation of the diagrams.

EC can on handle 3 EC HST's per night so I wouldn't be surprised if 0930 EDB -KGX is extended to start from Stirling.

I think that would be too late. Both the Sunderland and Stirling departures will be targeted at the business market and thus be early morning departures for a mid-morning arrival in KGX. I'd suggest the Sunderland service being an extension of the 6.30am Newcastle departure.

 

[Rich McLean]

Could it not be fueled at Craigentinny and then be moved up to Perth to be cleaned and stabled? It can't be that hard to find a path at that time of night.

An HST would need to be connected up to a shore supply overnight, unless it is kept running, and if it is running, it would need to be supervised

 

[Suraggu]

That service is formed from the only HST to stable overnight at Newcastle. As that set will be required for the Sunderland service there is going to have to be some shuffling of diagrams with a 225 doing the morning Newcastle to Edinburgh service instead. The 0830 from Edinburgh at the moment goes on to form the 1400 KGX to Aberdeen service so needs to be a HST. Of course, with the daytime Newcastle terminators being extended to/from Edinburgh there is going to have to be a reorganisation of the diagrams.

I think that would be too late. Both the Sunderland and Stirling departures will be targeted at the business market and thus be early morning departures for a mid-morning arrival in KGX. I'd suggest the Sunderland service being an extension of the 6.30am Newcastle departure.

Oh I am full aware of the 1 HST only from HT in the AM. HT could end up with another HST with NL gaining an extra Mk.4. The Sunderland/Stirling path is subject to receiving the go ahead and it could possibly be earlier perhaps the ex 0600 NCL -KGX. This is entirely possible.
I agree it is all down to what VTEC want to do with diagrams. EC HST cannot have a diagram more than 1200 miles so their is a limit in what they can do.

The extra 4 services a day to/from Edinburgh might seem easy just to extend the NCL terminators but that is not entirely possible as it currently stands. Working it out an extra Set would be needed to cover the service. Now if their are 4 Mk.4's out on maintenance and 1 Mk.3 rake on Maintenance per week for a 7 day period except Sundays where 1 Mk.4 set becomes available for 1 day then it is not possible. Even with tighter turnarounds @ EDB and extending the NCL terminators to EDB VTEC will either
A) Pull a Mk.4 off maintenance
B) Hire in a HST (Most likely EMT)

Also when the Refurbishment project starts in 2015 shortly after the Franchise starts, it is entirely possible that a hire in is needed to cover a set in for refurbishment. The refurbishment will not be able to coincide with other maintenance exams due to dates when due and that some sets have had major exams in the last year or so.

 

[najaB]

An HST would need to be connected up to a shore supply overnight, unless it is kept running, and if it is running, it would need to be supervised

I'm about 80% sure there are shore supplies at Perth, though I may be thinking of Inverness. As was mentioned up-thread, they stable a HST at Perth during engineering works.

 

[Rich McLean]

I'm about 80% sure there are shore supplies at Perth, though I may be thinking of Inverness. As was mentioned up-thread, they stable a HST at Perth during engineering works.

Don't know the area, but that is the main bit. Of course, there maintenance, fuel, taking etc also to take into account, which could be done at EC before sending it back out

 

[SkinnyDave]

Found it interesting in recent edition of Rail Magazine that it is rumoured that some MK 4s will be kept possibly loco hauled.. (Apparently all bidders suggested this)

Any ideas what services this would be for

 

[E-Rail]

After George Osbourne saying bidders for the next East Anglia franchise would have to commit to introducing "fresh" stock to the Norwich Liverpool Streets, I would say it's odds on that several of the MK4s will move to Crown Point in time for the DDA deadline.

Having said that, I wouldn't be surprised to see Stagecoach renew the lease on them just to prevent Open Access competitors on the ECML from using them.

 

[Suraggu]

Found it interesting in recent edition of Rail Magazine that it is rumoured that some MK 4s will be kept possibly loco hauled.. (Apparently all bidders suggested this)

Any ideas what services this would be for

I always take RAIL with a pinch of salt. Inter City Railways said it will introduce new 65 strong IEP project trains, never been an office replacing etc but you never know?
EDIT snippet taken from Stagecoach's site "From 2018, Inter City Railways will take delivery of the new Intercity Express trains, to be assembled at Hitachi's factory in Newton Aycliffe, County Durham. By 2020 all of the 65 modern high-speed electric trains will be in service and will replace 39 existing trains."

EC currently have 44 trains in its fleet. Mind you it could be a typo.
Also how else would you move a Mk.4 set?

 

[SkinnyDave]

I always take RAIL with a pinch of salt. Inter City Railways said it will introduce new 65 strong IEP project trains, never been an office replacing etc but you never know?
Also how else would you move a Mk.4 set?

The Traxx loco was quoted

 

[SouthStand]

An HST would need to be connected up to a shore supply overnight, unless it is kept running, and if it is running, it would need to be supervised

Can you explain?

 

[cjmillsnun]

Was wondering the same.

All it would need on overnight is the tail lights, and they're LEDs

 

[najaB]

Can you explain?

I believe that Rich McLean means that in order to avoid the batteries going flat the train would need to be connected to an AC supply, or the engine would have to be left idling. I've no idea why this is necessary for a HST, but not for the DMUs which are stabled at Perth currently.

As a thought, if there's not room to stable at Perth, perhaps they could stable at Dundee Platform 1 to give an early through service to London. Most nights there's nothing scheduled to pass through Dundee from the North after the sleeper at 2306 edit below. They could clean at Craigentinny, leaving late enough to arrive into Dundee behind the 2248 service to Aberdeen - if they need to be out of EC earlier than that, then use a trip round the sub or the Fife Circle to 'eat up' the time.

Hold the GR service at Tay Bridge South or at the signal before Dundee Central Jn until the Sleeper heads south and then run the HST into Platform 1. It shouldn't be too hard to arrange a shore supply at Dundee.

Edit: Forgot about the Aberdeen-Perth service at 2340-something, I suppose that could run through platform 4.

 

[Rich McLean]

I believe that Rich McLean means that in order to avoid the batteries going flat the train would need to be connected to an AC supply, or the engine would have to be left idling. I've no idea why this is necessary for a HST, but not for the DMUs which are stabled at Perth currently.

As a thought, if there's not room to stable at Perth, perhaps they could stable at Dundee Platform 1 to give an early through service to London. Most nights there's nothing scheduled to pass through Dundee from the North after the sleeper at 2306 edit below. They could clean at Craigentinny, leaving late enough to arrive into Dundee behind the 2248 service to Aberdeen - if they need to be out of EC earlier than that, then use a trip round the sub or the Fife Circle to 'eat up' the time.

Hold the GR service at Tay Bridge South or at the signal before Dundee Central Jn until the Sleeper heads south and then run the HST into Platform 1. It shouldn't be too hard to arrange a shore supply at Dundee.

Edit: Forgot about the Aberdeen-Perth service at 2340-something, I suppose that could run through platform 4.

On MTU Fitted power cars, the Pre-Heaters are required to be kept at 65 degrees Celsius via a shore supply, or the engines will not turn over until the battery pack is charged, pre heaters warmed up to temperature etc which can take several hours.

VP185s don't have this problem however