What trains will virgin be using on the east coast main line

[najaB]

On MTU Fitted power cars, the Pre-Heaters are required to be kept at 65 degrees Celsius via a shore supply, or the engines will not turn over until the battery pack is charged, pre heaters warmed up to temperature etc which can take several hours.

VP185s don't have this problem however

Thanks for that. It's a good day when you learn something new!

 

[Mark62]

The super express trains will not be any faster than current class 91 stock. Originally these were called inter city 225's. Then intention was to have then run at 140mph. This was easily achievable 25 years ago. And in the year 2019 after billions of pounds investment the new super express trains will run at the slower 125mph. Yes I know they can do 140mph. Well trains could do that 25 years ago.
Talk about effective rebranding and conning the public with semantics and double talk.

 

[class26]

The super express trains will not be any faster than current class 91 stock. Originally these were called inter city 225's. Then intention was to have then run at 140mph. This was easily achievable 25 years ago. And in the year 2019 after billions of pounds investment the new super express trains will run at the slower 125mph. Yes I know they can do 140mph. Well trains could do that 25 years ago.
Talk about effective rebranding and conning the public with semantics and double talk.

But they couldn`t do 140 mph years ago with safety. Steam did 126 mph on the ECML but only once and not in regular day to day service.
140 mph requires in cab signalling and hopefully will appear once IEP`s are fully delivered. If you read Networks rails recent blurb you will see that 140 mph is the new standard for main lines in the UK. Paddington to Bristol is also looking at 140 mph with IEP so I would hope this will be achieved on the ECML by the end of this decade.

 

[NSEFAN]

Paddington to Bristol is also looking at 140 mph with IEP so I would hope this will be achieved on the ECML by the end of this decade.

What would be the time/capacity benefits of increasing to 140mph, and what would be the cost in energy/infrastructure?

As an aside, I have been informed multiple times from different people regarding the early days of HST operation between London and Bristol, when train sets were regularly doing very good and extremely good 125mph operation, especially to make up time.

 

[455driver]

What would be the time/capacity benefits of increasing to 140mph, and what would be the cost in energy/infrastructure?

As an aside, I have been informed multiple times from different people regarding the early days of HST operation between London and Bristol, when train sets were regularly doing very good and extremely good 125mph operation, especially to make up time.

Not much time saving in the grand scheme of things unless you can maintain 140 for a good length of time.

Data recorders killed off the exploits on the HSTs making up loads of time.

 

[Suraggu]

The rumour of a small number of Class 91's & Mk.4's (Six Sets, 8 Class 91's) continue to gather pace with various informed sources stating it is for the enhanced West Riding services.

 

[class26]

What would be the time/capacity benefits of increasing to 140mph, and what would be the cost in energy/infrastructure?

As an aside, I have been informed multiple times from different people regarding the early days of HST operation between London and Bristol, when train sets were regularly doing very good and extremely good 125mph operation, especially to make up time.

In Januarys MODERN RAILWAYS an article on the new franchise says there will be 6 trains between Kings X and Edinburgh with only one stop (as the Adonis flyer does now). At 140 mph that would surely save significant time with decent paths ?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The super express trains will not be any faster than current class 91 stock. Originally these were called inter city 225's. Then intention was to have then run at 140mph. This was easily achievable 25 years ago. And in the year 2019 after billions of pounds investment the new super express trains will run at the slower 125mph. Yes I know they can do 140mph. Well trains could do that 25 years ago.
Talk about effective rebranding and conning the public with semantics and double talk.

But they WILL accelerate MUCH faster than the 225`s therefore faster between A and B. Top speed isn`t everything

 

[Suraggu]

From 2020 all trains on ECML will have to be fitted with ERTMS in cab signaling iirc.
This means IEP can run at there maximum speed of 140 mph.
This system could also be fitted to Class 91's and DVT's but this will mean a change in maintenance regimes and upgrades.

 

[DownSouth]

What would be the time/capacity benefits of increasing to 140mph, and what would be the cost in energy/infrastructure?

If you get half an hour of uninterrupted running at 140mph compared to uninterrupted running at 125mph over the same 70 mile distance, you save just 3 minutes and 36 seconds.

But in the real world, how many places are there anywhere in the UK where there could possibly be 80+ miles of uninterrupted 125/140 running without any instances of slowing for a curve or through a junction? Remember you need the extra distance for acceleration/deceleration, 140mph doesn't just happen in the blink of an eye.

If you want shorter journey times and enhanced capacity without the energy/infrastructure costs of higher maximum speeds, the focus needs to be on reducing the amount of time spent going slowly. There's much more to be gained from increasing the speeds on departure from stations and installing faster turnouts than there is from minor upgrades to the top speed reached just a few times in each trip.

 

[Jonny]

But they couldn`t do 140 mph years ago with safety. Steam did 126 mph on the ECML but only once and not in regular day to day service.
140 mph requires in cab signalling and hopefully will appear once IEP`s are fully delivered. If you read Networks rails recent blurb you will see that 140 mph is the new standard for main lines in the UK. Paddington to Bristol is also looking at 140 mph with IEP so I would hope this will be achieved on the ECML by the end of this decade.

I understand that ECML south of Doncaster is due to receive ETCS fairly early on so it should be relatively straightforward, infrastructure permitting. There lies the problem...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Not much time saving in the grand scheme of things unless you can maintain 140 for a good length of time.

Data recorders killed off the exploits on the HSTs making up loads of time.

Even so, each incremental step makes the next incremental step more likely to be worthwhile, and therefore more likely to have a favourable business case, etc...

 

[455driver]

Maybe this thread needs its title changing because Virgin wont be operating any of the trains on the ECML, Stagecoach will be operating all of them!

 

[Rich McLean]

Maybe this thread needs its title changing because Virgin wont be operating any of the trains on the ECML, Stagecoach will be operating all of them!

But to "Joe Public" it will be Virgin..............

(grabs can opener)

 

[cjmillsnun]

Maybe this thread needs its title changing because Virgin wont be operating any of the trains on the ECML, Stagecoach will be operating all of them!

Just wish they'd be honest about it and do a variant of the corporate livery (similar to EMT's) and brand themselves East Coast Trains. (I happen to like SWT and EMT)

 

[Jordeh]

Just wish they'd be honest about it and do a variant of the corporate livery (similar to EMT's) and brand themselves East Coast Trains. (I happen to like SWT and EMT)

Complex corporate ownership structures are pretty common today and franchising the use of a name is nothing new (Admittedly here it's a 10% stake). I don't see the need to be so pernickety about the naming of it.

No one talks about Stagecoach operating trains on the MML, they talk of EMT operating trains on the MML. Nor do people talk about Deutsche Bahn operating trains between London and Sunderland (Grand Central). The fact is, Virgin Trains East Coast is the operator and that's going to be quite obviously shortened to, Virgin.

 

[badassunicorn]

Can't wait for Branson to tell us all how he has introduced new trains. I can't stand that man.

 

[BananaRepublic]

Maybe this thread needs its title changing because Virgin wont be operating any of the trains on the ECML, Stagecoach will be operating all of them!

Surely it will be Inter City Railways who'll be operating them, who are of course 90% owned by Stagecoach, rather than the parent company?

[edited due to typo, i.e. putting EC Railways instead of IC Railways - Doh!]

 

[Stats]

Surely it will be East Coast Railways who'll be operating them, who are of course 90% owned by Stagecoach, rather than the parent company?

Surely the operator isn't going to change and will continue to be East Coast Main Line Company Ltd, only as a subsidiary of Inter City Railways Ltd rather than as a subsidiary of DOR and trade as Virgin Trains East Coast? Or are ICR metging ECMLC Ltd into ICR?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

From 2020 all trains on ECML will have to be fitted with ERTMS in cab signaling iirc.
This means IEP can run at there maximum speed of 140 mph.
This system could also be fitted to Class 91's and DVT's but this will mean a change in maintenance regimes and upgrades.

I think you'll find that on the the ECML, the OHLE will need to be upgraded for regular 140mph running.
This is as well as having ERTMS fitted (only committed south of Doncaster I think).
Not so sure about the track quality.
The GWML is being fitted with 140mph OHLE from the start so may be a possibility earlier.

 

[Suraggu]

I think you'll find that on the the ECML, the OHLE will need to be upgraded for regular 140mph running.
This is as well as having ERTMS fitted (only committed south of Doncaster I think).
Not so sure about the track quality.
The GWML is being fitted with 140mph OHLE from the start so may be a possibility earlier.

Oh yes we are all well aware. It needs upgrading to keep line speed at 125mph. Their have been many informed discussions at various control centre's up and down the route.
It has always been the DfT desire to have the ECML with 140mph max speed, ERTMS (3rd floor of the RoC is dedicated to it) and IEP has been designed to run at 140mph. The decrease in journey times across the route will need 140mph running.

 

[Murph]

It has always been the DfT desire to have the ECML with 140mph max speed

Yup, since at least the 1980s, and we've had 140mph trains on it since 1990 (just not the signalling to allow them to run at 140)…

 

[route:oxford]

If you want shorter journey times and enhanced capacity without the energy/infrastructure costs of higher maximum speeds, the focus needs to be on reducing the amount of time spent going slowly. There's much more to be gained from increasing the speeds on departure from stations and installing faster turnouts than there is from minor upgrades to the top speed reached just a few times in each trip.

Indeed. I would like to see Morpeth sorted out. Flying junctions and a new straight avoiding route would both increase speed and offer additional capacity for stoppers.

On the West Coast, Carstairs needs sorting out too.

 

[class26]

Indeed. I would like to see Morpeth sorted out. Flying junctions and a new straight avoiding route would both increase speed and offer additional capacity for stoppers.

On the West Coast, Carstairs needs sorting out too.

Out of interest IF a Morpeth avoiding line was built at 125 MPH (or better still 140) how much time will it save for non stop trains ?

I would imagine an avoiding line to be similar to those on the Spanish high speed system where trains leave the main line for stations and rejoin (at speed) after the stop.

Yes, sorting out low speed sections of the ECML will save time but why not do both - ie 140 mph running AND the lower speed sections ?

 

[Stats]

. The decrease in journey times across the route will need 140mph running.

No. The decrease in journey times will be delivered by better acceleration and braking performance and revised calling patterns. If there was any plans to increase linespeeds to 140mph in the new franchise both the DfT and ICR would be making a song and dance about it.

 

[Murph]

If there was any plans to increase linespeeds to 140mph in the new franchise both the DfT and ICR would be making a song and dance about it.

Well, they have ordered 140mph trains. It was the plan for the IC225s, and there's even a few sections of the current ECML signalling that were changed to flashing or double greens (can't remember which right now) for it, isn't there? In the end, they never followed through with it in the 90s, and we've run the IC225s slower than designed ever since.

I thought that ERTMS was going to finally enable it, since it seems like the thinking was that 125mph was as fast as we could go without in-cab signalling. Sure, the tracks and the wires may have to be maintained/upgraded for 140mph, but it seems like nearly all of the puzzle pieces are finally falling into place for it a mere 25 years later than originally planned (and probably 30 before we actually see it happen).

 

[najaB]

Indeed. I would like to see Morpeth sorted out. Flying junctions and a new straight avoiding route would both increase speed and offer additional capacity for stoppers.

On the West Coast, Carstairs needs sorting out too.

Would Morpeth really need flying junctions? The majority of services would be using the avoiding route so high-speed turnouts would suffice for the smaller number of stopping services.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Well, they have ordered 140mph trains. It was the plan for the IC225s, and there's even a few sections of the current ECML signalling that were changed to flashing or double greens (can't remember which right now) for it, isn't there? In the end, they never followed through with it in the 90s, and we've run the IC225s slower than designed ever since.

I thought that ERTMS was going to finally enable it, since it seems like the thinking was that 125mph was as fast as we could go without in-cab signalling. Sure, the tracks and the wires may have to be maintained/upgraded for 140mph, but it seems like nearly all of the puzzle pieces are finally falling into place for it a mere 25 years later than originally planned (and probably 30 before we actually see it happen).

I think it's worth saying that NR has no plans at the moment to raise the ECML speed limit above 125mph.
There is nothing in the CP5 business plan on the subject.
The ERTMS programme is still at the pilot stage and does not specifically offer higher speeds on the ECML.
It will be a challenge to install it and remove the "lights on sticks" by 2020, for current line speeds.
Maybe it will all come together after 2020, but it doesn't seem to be an objective at the moment.

 

[pro4600]

No one suggested re-hiring the nol eurostars yet?

 

[route:oxford]

Would Morpeth really need flying junctions? The majority of services would be using the avoiding route so high-speed turnouts would suffice for the smaller number of stopping services.

It all depends on the balance between what can be done with Vs what can't be done without.

 

[najaB]

It all depends on the balance between what can be done with Vs what can't be done without.

Agreed. But flying junctions don't come cheap, and there's possibly other places on the network (e.g. Newark flat junction) that would provide more benefit.

 

[cjmillsnun]

No one suggested re-hiring the nol eurostars yet?

Considering that SNCF are turning their 3 capital sets into razor blades ahead of some of the PSE sets, something tells me that the NOL sets when returned from SNCF will be clapped out.