What will replace the Mk3 sleeper coaches?

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PaxmanValenta

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With the present Mk3 sleeper coaches nearing 40 years of age are there any plans to develop a new sleeper coach of the future?

Is so are they likely to form party of a DMU/EMU set?
 
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Peter Mugridge

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Already being built - a fleet of Mk5 Sleepers, locomotive hauled, for the Caledonian by CAF of Spain.
 

randyrippley

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Oh what a shame the Nightstar sleepers were never fitted out.................
other than the ones that went to Canada, did any of the bodyshells survive?
 

dubscottie

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Oh what a shame the Nightstar sleepers were never fitted out.................
other than the ones that went to Canada, did any of the bodyshells survive?

All went to Canada but I did see pictures of around 10 bodyshells dumped minus the bogies at one of the railway works over there. You could see them on google street view.
 

Emblematic

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All went to Canada but I did see pictures of around 10 bodyshells dumped minus the bogies at one of the railway works over there. You could see them on google street view.

I believe all 139 were eventually put to use, according to VIA Rail only 64 were complete when shipped, the remaining 75 were assembled in Canada. Not all are sleepers, some became lounge cars, baggage vans etc.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Only for the Caledonian sleepers, no plans announced as yet for the Night Riviera

Weren't the the Night Riviera sets just refurbished? Or was that just a lick of green paint?
Structurally the Mk3s aren't really a concern, it's the cost of PRM-TSI mods that's driving the withdrawal of Mk3 seated stock rather than age or condition. The Cali Sleeper replacement is more about politics and prestige than engineering. Having said that, politics is all that keeps any sleeper service going, without that imperative they would all follow the european overnight services into history.
 

Emblematic

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Today - nothing. By 2020 - almost everything. Chiltern and Scotrail will continue, almost every other operator will have replaced them.
 

Phil.

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I believe all 139 were eventually put to use, according to VIA Rail only 64 were complete when shipped, the remaining 75 were assembled in Canada. Not all are sleepers, some became lounge cars, baggage vans etc.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Weren't the the Night Riviera sets just refurbished? Or was that just a lick of green paint?
Structurally the Mk3s aren't really a concern, it's the cost of PRM-TSI mods that's driving the withdrawal of Mk3 seated stock rather than age or condition. The Cali Sleeper replacement is more about politics and prestige than engineering. Having said that, politics is all that keeps any sleeper service going, without that imperative they would all follow the european overnight services into history.

I went up Lunnon on the Riviera a couple of weeks ago. The sleepers have obviously just been properly refurbished. So much better than they were ten years ago.
 

BestWestern

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I went up Lunnon on the Riviera a couple of weeks ago. The sleepers have obviously just been properly refurbished. So much better than they were ten years ago.

They haven't had anything beyond a lick of green paint, as far as I'm aware. Plans for a planned refurbishment were revealed fairly recently.
 

ainsworth74

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Only for the Caledonian sleepers, no plans announced as yet for the Night Riviera

But with the glut of spares available once the Caledonian Mk3s are withdrawn and the low utilization of the Sleeper stock I imagine that they could be kept going for a very long period of time.
 

alexl92

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Is there much chance of the normal (ie non-sleeper) Mk3s moving into preservation or into service with a railtour operator? Surely there's scope for sets in BR Blue to run with heritage diesels on tours?
 

Bletchleyite

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Is there much chance of the normal (ie non-sleeper) Mk3s moving into preservation or into service with a railtour operator?

I would imagine so. The Mk2s are getting knackered, and there isn't all *that* much difference between an aircon Mk2 and a Mk3 in terms of heritage appeal. Indeed the larger windows of the Mk3, if reseated to 64 seats per vehicle in Standard (e.g. the Grand Central layout), could be a significant appeal in terms of the enhanced view, not to mention the additional space the extra 3 metres provide.
 

gimmea50anyday

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There are 3 mk3's preserved to run with 41 001 on the GC, there are a number of mk3 sleepers also preserved at several heritage railways, these are generally used for volunteer accomodation tho
 

sprinterguy

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Is there much chance of the normal (ie non-sleeper) Mk3s moving into preservation or into service with a railtour operator? Surely there's scope for sets in BR Blue to run with heritage diesels on tours?
Pretty much guaranteed, in my opinion. As gimmea50anyday says, the 125 Group already have three mark 3s preserved, and the chances are that, with enough funding, they could well end up with a complete HST set eventually.

Plus Cargo-D owned a number of mark 3s for a while which were used on railtours as well as hired to the likes of Wrexham and Shropshire (all since returned to use with TOCs in the form of Chiltern and ATW) and there was for a brief time a preserved HST in use with Cotswold Rail.
 

CosherB

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I would imagine the likes of (particularly) Riviera will be interested in acquiring Mk3 LHCS. I'm sure the AGA fleet, with relatively recent repaint and interior refresh, will be particularly appealing.

As for the ex-CS Mk3 sleepers, I wonder if GWR will buy a few carriages for use or future-proofing for possible NR train lengthening. I also wonder if a few will be sought by railtour operators as staff cars, as per the Northern Belle and Royal Scotsman. Most of the 53 though will be cannibalised for spares and scrapped.
 

NotATrainspott

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In the best case scenario the Night Riviera could continue using Mk3s until 2030 or so but then it would be left trying to acquire a micro-fleet of new sleeper coaches. I really don't see it being unlikely that a future GWR operator won't just tag on a small order for more CAF carriages. Then the Night Riviera will be able to run happily until 2045 or so, the same point at which the Caledonian Sleeper carriages will need replaced as well. Keeping the two on the same stock replacement cycle is essential for the future of both services.
 

CosherB

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The Mk2s are getting knackered, and there isn't all *that* much difference between an aircon Mk2 and a Mk3 in terms of heritage appeal. Indeed the larger windows of the Mk3, if reseated to 64 seats per vehicle in Standard (e.g. the Grand Central layout), could be a significant appeal in terms of the enhanced view, not to mention the additional space the extra 3 metres provide.

Just look what a bit of spit and polish can do to 73 Mk2s! ;)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DX2lsTYMEfA
 

43096

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There are 3 mk3's preserved to run with 41 001 on the GC, there are a number of mk3 sleepers also preserved at several heritage railways, these are generally used for volunteer accomodation tho

The Mid-Norfolk Railway also has some Mark 3s. Off the top of my head I can't remember how many, but there is at least an RFM (10213?) there.
 

RichmondCommu

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It's perhaps worth mentioning here that DB's sleeper services will no longer run after this December. Russia has recently got its hands on some Talgo built over night stock so one would think that their sleeper services are secure but I do wonder how long the Austrian based services will continue to run.

In all fairness if DB don't think its worth their while to continue to run sleeper services why should the Great Western franchise think any different? As far as I know DB are still planning to run over night services with seats only trains.
 

Bletchleyite

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Much as I wouldn't want to encourage the loss of it, an 03something Pendolino from Glasgow to Euston (and corresponding EC service to Kings Cross), and a midnight-ish Pendolino to both, would probably be a broadly adequate substitute for the Lowlander. GW could do similar.

The Highlander would be a bit different, only really air would substitute for Aberdeen and Inverness, and the FW Sleeper, unless Megabus/Nat Ex stepped in with a new coach service, is the only way to do a weekend away to the West Highlands from London without a day off work - with day trains or air you'd arrive too late at FW/have to leave it too early, and it's too far to be sensible by car in one go.

That said, with regard to GW, the overnight service would never be *massive* in terms of loadings, so as long as the stock isn't knackered it might as well carry on rather than be swapped for an HST. It doesn't, unlike the Scottish ones, cost substantially more than running an HST, as there's no shunting or faffing about. Indeed, I must admit to being surprised they continued with the 57s, and didn't actually shove a power car on each end and run a Sleeper HST (with a motor-alternator set in each power car van area).

Indeed, thinking about it, the fact that the UK has one single big destination they all run to probably makes them more viable than Germany's web of destinations. The French ones might work were it not for the TGVs, and were it not for the fact that they threw away the business travel market (the only premium market there) by going couchette/seat only.
 
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JonathanH

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I think that the idea of Pendolinos arriving or departing in the middle of the night ignores the fact that not everyone is using the sleeper to travel to or from home. Where are you supposed to wait until 03something in Glasgow or Edinburgh?
 

Bletchleyite

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I think that the idea of Pendolinos arriving or departing in the middle of the night ignores the fact that not everyone is using the sleeper to travel to or from home. Where are you supposed to wait until 03something in Glasgow or Edinburgh?

The idea of an early one southbound and a late one northbound does take into account the fact that most people (certainly the more profitable ones) are using it to get to London for a full business day, much less demand in the other direction.
 

jimm

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That said, with regard to GW, the overnight service would never be *massive* in terms of loadings, so as long as the stock isn't knackered it might as well carry on rather than be swapped for an HST.

Well loadings are massive enough to justify GWR adding extra sleeping cars to the fleet so the Night Riviera can offer more beds all week in both directions.
 

HMS Ark Royal

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Plus Cargo-D owned a number of mark 3s for a while which were used on railtours as well as hired to the likes of Wrexham and Shropshire (all since returned to use with TOCs in the form of Chiltern and ATW) and there was for a brief time a preserved HST in use with Cotswold Rail.

Also used by HT where you would set off on a 180 as far as Doncaster and then change to a 87 and the MK3s
 

jimm

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Also used by HT where you would set off on a 180 as far as Doncaster and then change to a 87 and the MK3s

That was before the 180s went to Hull Trains, with the Mk3 rake being used in late 2007-early 2008 to allow time at the weekends for the three operational 222s to be maintained after the fourth set fell off the jacks at Crofton depot - and the loco was 86101, not an 87.

The use of the Mk3 set ended when the first two 180s arrived with HT from First Great Western.
 

Class 170101

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Also used by HT where you would set off on a 180 as far as Doncaster and then change to a 87 and the MK3s

The other option was 222s between London and Doncaster with a 170 between Doncaster and Hull. I believe that TPE loaned HT a 170 or two at times for this.
 
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