What's the Difference Between a 450 and 444?

Discussion in 'Traction & Rolling Stock' started by whhistle, 12 Nov 2011.

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  1. whhistle

    whhistle Established Member

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    So, these trains seemed to be introduced at the same time.
    Is it one is painted in one livery and has more seats?

    Why are South West Trains using two liveries?

    Thanks
     
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  3. Schnellzug

    Schnellzug Established Member

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    450s are outer suburban*, 2+3 (and very thin) seating, doors 1/3 & 2/3 of the way along the coach, and 4-car; 444s are 2+2 seating, plus a (very small) buffet, 5 cars, and doors at the end of the coach. The blue livery was I think supposed to be the 'outer suburban' livery, although South West Trains treat their passengers with disdain and use them on the Portsmouth line, where they really shouldn't.

    *or should be
     
  4. ralphchadkirk

    ralphchadkirk Established Member

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    444 coaches are slightly longer as well I think.


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  5. Brucey

    Brucey Member

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    450 is about 20m in length, 444 is 23m.
     
  6. 455/8

    455/8 Member

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    As well as the things listed above a 4 car 450 has Bi parting doors, one standard toilet, one universal toilet, one compressor, two TCU's, two ACU's and one set of batteries. While a 5 car 444 has single leaf doors, one universal toilet, three standard toilets, two compressors, two TCU's, three ACU's and two sets of batteries.
     
  7. 150222

    150222 Member

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    A 450 is slightly wider than a 444 as well.
     
  8. Robbies

    Robbies Established Member

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    Okay, given that the 350 is really no different than the 450 other than the 350/0 having 2+2 seating, why is it then that when the order goes through next year for some new 350's to be built for London Midland will some be going to Trans Penine which I would have thought would be more suitable to an pantograph version of the Class 444?
     
  9. 150222

    150222 Member

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    The assembly line for 350/450's still exists. The 444 one went years ago.
     
  10. Nym

    Nym Established Member

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    Because their eventual home will be back at London Midland since it's a small order they don't want to have 8 350s for LM and 10 of somthing else for TPE.

    Lanc - Scotland Services will get a new EMU later, hopefully somthing like a 110mph version of the 380, possibly with end doors (380 is 23m, better for fitting into platforms at Manchester)
     
  11. Schnellzug

    Schnellzug Established Member

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    This is a reasonable question, given that they were all designed for AC or DC operation. I suppose it's because the 350/450 bodyshell is, or was recently, in production, so it's relatively easy to order a new batch, while the jigs for the 444* might have been dismantled, so it'd be expensive to reopen the production line.

    *and you try saying "for the 444".

    Although just to complify things, I think the 380s for Scotrail are 350 style but 23m, I seem to recall someone saying once.
     
  12. Ministry

    Ministry Member

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    The Wikipedia article on the Desiro family provides a decent summary of the differences between the 444 and 450: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desiro#Desiro_UK

    I think the colour schemes used by SWT were originally intended to reflect the nature of the routes each family of units covers, with red (455) being the inner suburban network, blue (450) being the outer suburban network and white (444, 458, 158, 159) being the long distance network. However, since the 442s went off lease the 450s are in regular service on the long distance network (in some cases running in multiple with a 444) so it doesn't really mean anything now.

    Off topic, but I took my first (and probably last) journey on a 460 on Tuesday night. It was the most comfortable EMU I've travelled on - if SWT could refurbish the 458s to that standard it'd be great to see them in use on the long distance routes in place of the 450s.
     
  13. Lampshade

    Lampshade Established Member

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    For the triple-four ;)
     
  14. ainsworth74

    ainsworth74 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    As well as the other very valid points that have been made, you also have to consider that the reason this order is going through fairly quickly and without having to be put out to tender is that it is considered a follow on order of 350s for LM (of which 10 will be sub-leased to TPE). I think if you were ordering 444s (which are obviously a new type for LM) you would not be able to claim it's a follow on order and would be forced to put it out to tender which would delay the order.
     
  15. tbtc

    tbtc Veteran Member

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    A shame LM can't order more 350s and sublease them to SWT (allowing a few 455s to go to Southern, thus sorting out the capacity issues on TOCs south of the Thames)...
     
  16. swt_passenger

    swt_passenger Veteran Member

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    Whereas back in the real world they'll almost certainly refurbish the 460 carriages to the 458 standard prior to merging them together for use on the suburban network. For completeness they then ought to paint them in the blue livery as well...
     
  17. 4SRKT

    4SRKT Established Member

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    Having different colour schemes is no new thing. In the 1970s BR had overall blue for inner-suburban sets such as SUBs and EPBs and blue and grey for outer-suburban and Inter City sets like VEPs, CIGs, REPs and TCs. They also had the decency to use CIG-BIG-CIG formations on the Portsmouths rather than 450s (modern day VEPs).
     
  18. 455driver

    455driver On Moderation

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    One major difference (from my point of view anyway) is I can drive a 450 fine, where-as on the 444 because they are a few inches narrower I keep bashing my left elbow on the grab rail. <D
     
  19. 455/8

    455/8 Member

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    even if a couple of swt 455's went over to southern, I doubt they would get used as all southerns stock is DOO where as swt 455 fleet had the DOO capability removed when they were refurbished, so southern would either have to make sure they had a guard on those services or the driver would have get out the driving seat and operate the doors like the guards do with the operating panel in the vestabule, the latter wouldn't be very practical for passenger trains.
     
  20. tbtc

    tbtc Veteran Member

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    Ah, fair enough, cheers for explaining.

    In my head I was starting to come up with a plan to get rid of the SN 313s by a complicated cascade. Back to the drawing board!
     
  21. Matt Taylor

    Matt Taylor Established Member

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    But alternatively.....since the Siemens yard at Strawberry Hill is no longer capable of stabling units it is a real tight squeeze when getting out of a 450 which has been stabled next to another 450 in roads one or two, it sure feels like a lot less than six feet between the rails!
     
  22. 317 forever

    317 forever Member

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    I think it's quite clever how they swap the colours round according to the nature of service they are booked on.

    Admittedly some services to Poole, even slow trains, are run by 444s and others by 450s almost interchangeably.

    I agree with how comfortable the class 460s were. I travelled on a Gatwick Express example in standard class and it could easily have been passed off as first class!
     
  23. Schnellzug

    Schnellzug Established Member

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    The other weekend there were a few services from Weymouth in the morning that were 450s, perhaps something to do with engineering work, but usually they're all 444. The Poole stoppers, (which no one would get all the way, as they wait at Brockenhurst for about 25 minutes and southampton for 15) usually seem to be 444s as well, when I'd have thought that a 450 would be sufficient for that, so sparing some 444s for Portsmouth services. Maybe it's something to do with diagrams for peak hour services.
     
  24. whhistle

    whhistle Established Member

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    Thanks for the replies.

    It's strange that they would make two near-on identical sets, but have one just inches wider. Surely this would have upped the production cost? But then I guess if it wasn't, then would it still have been classified a 450? Or would they all have been the same?
     
  25. TEW

    TEW Established Member

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    As the 450 is shorter it can be wider and still fit within the loading gauge. The 450s are quite different from the 444s in terms of body shape and size.
     
  26. swt_passenger

    swt_passenger Veteran Member

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    It's all to do with numbers of seats required in the peaks on the Portsmouth route. The DfT required a certain number of seats in the peaks, this can only be achieved by using 12 car 450s on the route, because the absolute number of trains on the route is governed by paths available at Woking Junction.
     
  27. Matt Taylor

    Matt Taylor Established Member

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    The only way that capacity can be increased on the route is to send one or two extra services via 'The New Line' (Cobham), but that doesn't help with the lack of capacity at Waterloo.
     
  28. 455driver

    455driver On Moderation

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    How are the two "near identical"?
    The bodyshells are completely different designs and the only thing similar is the front end and even then (if you look close enough) they are different.
     
  29. Robbies

    Robbies Established Member

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    I would also go on to point out there also seems to be differences between the 450's and 350's apart from the 350's having a pantograph on them.
     
  30. Pumbaa

    Pumbaa Established Member

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    Internally perhaps, but technically that's pretty much the only difference. Oh - energy meters now!
     
  31. Barrett M95

    Barrett M95 Member

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    It's simple mathematics. The difference is 6... ;)
     
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