Whats wrong with 'plastic'?

[Julian G]

perhaps if...
The seats lined up with the windows

The other week I was on a GNER Mk4 Refurb and the seats didn't line up.

I paid the most too :x

nothing lines with the windows :x
even 377/350/321/313 doesn't line up

 

[Nick]

perhaps if...
The seats lined up with the windows

The other week I was on a GNER Mk4 Refurb and the seats didn't line up.

I paid the most too :x

nothing lines with the windows :x
even 377/350/321/313 doesn't line up

Cause MK1 offered just table seats next to windows...great you think, but no, impratical, especially in peak loadings the seating was very limited compared to say a 170. The reason nowadays windows may not line is up is because they want more seats per carriage to stop so many people complaining that there wasn't any! So unless you have a side full of a continueous window then you'll never get every window to line up to a seat. But a seats a seat, you want a window? Go stand by the door.

 

[Guinness]

perhaps if...
The seats lined up with the windows

The other week I was on a GNER Mk4 Refurb and the seats didn't line up.

I paid the most too :x

nothing lines with the windows :x
even 377/350/321/313 doesn't line up

Mk3

Twas different to other Mk3s.

(It had a Class 43 Locomotive on the front)

 

[Dave A]

Let me spell out the differences using a real life scenario that happened to me last summer:

On my way back from visiting family on the south coast, a Sunday, at Ashford Int, I got on a slammer, back to London, not sure which one.

Anyway, imagine this, it had been a week of nice, hot weather and peak holiday season for FAMILIES especially. I get on the third out of 12 carriages and it was packed. To add to this over-crowding there was 2 mothers, 4 or 5 small children between them and with push-chairs each. Now considering that you've got to get on the trains where people sit and the noise that was being generated, THIS WAS HELL! It was like that all the way through the train and I eventually got off and waited for the next train to London.

The next train arrives, a Cl375/7, "plastic", it again was crowded, had small children on etc etc, but there were designated areas for push-chairs and people with large baggage. I got a seat and there were no troubles.

In conclusion, a train such as a slammmer may be great for off-peak travel, railtours and meets, which usually take place at off-peak anyway, but for holiday traffic, especially on the coast, "plastics" fair out better.

David :P

 

[yorkie]

Actually there's plenty of space for buggies etc in the guard's area of slam-door trains.

And I believe you are wrong about the older trains being worse during the peaks, in fact the opposite is the case, as they have more doors, lower station dwell times, and a higher capacity.

Also did you check the length of your 12 coach long train? I've known plenty of cases where the rear coaches are wedged but the front coaches have plenty of seats.

On Friday I got the 1730 ex King's Cross from Peterborough non-stop to York, and easily got a table to myself right at the front (where the smoking section used to be), got off and only about 1 person boarded at the front. Walked past the middle of the train and saw huge crowds of people boarding the already packed middle section.

 

[Julian G]

no wonder the Cobblers were better than 321s

 

[Nick]

Actually there's plenty of space for buggies etc in the guard's area of slam-door trains.

Great, you can sit in the guards van all day with your child! What fun! Many people would be rather peeved off that in the 21st century they are still forced to sit in the Guards van because they have a small child in a pushchair.

And I believe you are wrong about the older trains being worse during the peaks, in fact the opposite is the case, as they have more doors, lower station dwell times, and a higher capacity.

Mmmmm, contradiction
If a driver has many sets of double with slide plug doors, and the dispatcher gives the all clear the doors are closed and off goes the new train. Also, please remember slammers have a wacking great guards compartment, and compartments (which can seat about 6 or 8, but many people trvael with a friend and refuse to sit in other compartments with stranges, they could be 'evil'). Think about it, guard areas and compartments loose much needed seats, and on the new trains, there is a reason why they don't have them. To allow more passengers a seat, infact the Mark 1 design of seating is one of the poorest for providing bums on seat per carriage!

With slam doors, you get single width doors (great for the disabled!), think about it - person figures out how to open door - people get off and shut door - people open door to get on then leave it open - dispatcher closes door - somebody else opens door to get on - dispatcher has to walk back down the platform to close door again (repeat process for about 50% of the doors) - train is eventually despatched

Also did you check the length of your 12 coach long train? I've known plenty of cases where the rear coaches are wedged but the front coaches have plenty of seats.

So have I, it's called people wanting to not walk far and get the nearest seat, and by assumption, since that carriage is full, not moving. It happens on trains no matter if its preverved, national rail or even trams!

On Friday I got the 1730 ex King's Cross from Peterborough non-stop to York, and easily got a table to myself right at the front (where the smoking section used to be), got off and only about 1 person boarded at the front. Walked past the middle of the train and saw huge crowds of people boarding the already packed middle section.

Probably because they were waiting under the canopy at they're station and like to stay around a staff presence and not walk to the end of the platform, when you can easily walk down the train later as I said before. This problem is to do with people's choices, not the trains fault is it?!

 

[TheSlash]

The 423 VEP has a door at every seat allowing shorter loading times. This also gives higher capacity, and believe it or not, you get a window at every seat

The problem with new trains is they have far too many computers on them that just plain dont work. Computers were born in a lab on a work bench and thats where they are still designed. They aren't durable enough to spend their life being bounced around underneath a train doing at least 100mph whilst getting covered in dirt, water, snow, ice, sandite, de icer and what ever else.
People seem to need wrapping up in cotton wool when it comes to trains. Apparently we now need a computer to talk to a satelite to see if its alright to open the doors, the train crew can't be trusted to decide, apparently.
If that computer and the satelite its talking to, have a disagreement, thats it, those doors aint opening.
The human race has survived millions of years without aircon and computers but now we depend on them and demand them.

 

[Mojo]

And I believe you are wrong about the older trains being worse during the peaks, in fact the opposite is the case, as they have more doors, lower station dwell times, and a higher capacity.

Also, people open the doors when the train is about to depart, plus with a single door there is less space for people to get on and off.

 

[Jim]

PLUS - Most comutors IME get out before it has stopped

 

[Nick]

PLUS - Most comutors IME get out before it has stopped

Thats exactly why they're a bad thing. If someone falls out the train say on the main line, bang onto the juice rail and bye bye!

It is not just that, but doors opening at stations can either hit passengers on the platform and if not alightly correctly can result in inqury. It's either more compensation or more passengers?

 

[Julian G]

PLUS - Most comutors IME get out before it has stopped

Thats exactly why they're a bad thing. If someone falls out the train say on the main line, bang onto the juice rail and bye bye!

sometimes the juice rail is opposite the platform

 

[Lewisham2221]

PLUS - Most comutors IME get out before it has stopped

Thats exactly why they're a bad thing. If someone falls out the train say on the main line, bang onto the juice rail and bye bye!

sometimes the juice rail is opposite the platform

Even so, falling between a platform and a moving train isn't going to leave you without injury...

 

[AlexS]

Still probably kill you anyway if you are more than stick thin.

If you fancy a 2 hour journey in a cold, dark, probably stinking guards van with a small child in a pushchair, you are a nut job. As far as I can tell, the guards offices on Pendolinos and Voyagers are next to the buffet, not in the crumple zones at the end of the coach (which is a baggage area). It's just a transferral of problems.

With slammers, you got your fingers trapped in the doors.
On new trains, you get a delay in open closing times (if you can't spare a minute of your time for the door, you have a by far overinflated opinion of yourself, and that goes for anybody.

With the slammers, you have the chance of squirting excrement at someone walking on a lineside footpath.
On a new train, you have slightly smelly at times septic tanks.


And above all...

SR 72 series slammers are as samey as any modern EMU!

These days you have a legion of 377s and 375s. Then, you have the extremely similar looking CIGs, VEPs, BIGs, EPBs, HAPs, CAPs and so on.

No one can really call the new trains samey, because the old ones were too! Over a thousand 400 series EMUs. Ouch.

That's why I never really bothered to make a real effort to see the SR boxes. They are just.... boring. Unlike locomotives, which have real varieties. Thumpers were different, because they sounded good!

 

[yorkie]

Actually there's plenty of space for buggies etc in the guard's area of slam-door trains.

Great, you can sit in the guards van all day with your child! What fun! Many people would be rather peeved off that in the 21st century they are still forced to sit in the Guards van because they have a small child in a pushchair.

But this may be safer than what you have now with pushchairs in vestibule areas, if there was an emergency they could cause obstructions. I've seen several occasions where this happens. No-one dare say anything as it's not PC, but if there was an emergency...

And I believe you are wrong about the older trains being worse during the peaks, in fact the opposite is the case, as they have more doors, lower station dwell times, and a higher capacity.

Mmmmm, contradiction
If a driver has many sets of double with slide plug doors, and the dispatcher gives the all clear the doors are closed and off goes the new train. Also, please remember slammers have a wacking great guards compartment, and compartments (which can seat about 6 or 8, but many people trvael with a friend and refuse to sit in other compartments with stranges, they could be 'evil'). Think about it, guard areas and compartments loose much needed seats, and on the new trains, there is a reason why they don't have them. To allow more passengers a seat, infact the Mark 1 design of seating is one of the poorest for providing bums on seat per carriage!

For station dwell times - just ask SWT and look at their timetable. I need say no more on this subject

As for capacity, no amount of wording alters reality, here is the reality:-

Class 423 4VEP 280 Seats
Class 377 4-car Electrostar 242 Seats.

With slam doors, you get single width doors (great for the disabled!), think about it - person figures out how to open door - people get off and shut door - people open door to get on then leave it open - dispatcher closes door - somebody else opens door to get on - dispatcher has to walk back down the platform to close door again (repeat process for about 50% of the doors) - train is eventually despatched

Again, see above reply re: SWT's slower timetable.

Also did you check the length of your 12 coach long train? I've known plenty of cases where the rear coaches are wedged but the front coaches have plenty of seats.

So have I, it's called people wanting to not walk far and get the nearest seat, and by assumption, since that carriage is full, not moving. It happens on trains no matter if its preverved, national rail or even trams!

Exactly my point, so it's not fair for LondonTube to blame the slammer for being full in the 3rd car along, the 12th car along may have had plenty of seats and in any case the train type is irrelevant for that.

On Friday I got the 1730 ex King's Cross from Peterborough non-stop to York, and easily got a table to myself right at the front (where the smoking section used to be), got off and only about 1 person boarded at the front. Walked past the middle of the train and saw huge crowds of people boarding the already packed middle section.

Probably because they were waiting under the canopy at they're station and like to stay around a staff presence and not walk to the end of the platform, when you can easily walk down the train later as I said before. This problem is to do with people's choices, not the trains fault is it?!

The canopy at York is the entire length of the platform in question, and it would not be easy to walk down the train due to the numbers involved. But anyway, yes it is not the trains fault, I never said it was.

 

[yorkie]

The 423 VEP has a door at every seat allowing shorter loading times. This also gives higher capacity, and believe it or not, you get a window at every seat

Problem is some people continue to ignore these facts as it does not suit their argument

Also, people open the doors when the train is about to depart, plus with a single door there is less space for people to get on and off.

But again, this is a theory but the reality on SWT....

PLUS - Most comutors IME get out before it has stopped

Thats exactly why they're a bad thing. If someone falls out the train say on the main line, bang onto the juice rail and bye bye!

It is not just that, but doors opening at stations can either hit passengers on the platform and if not alightly correctly can result in inqury. It's either more compensation or more passengers?

Passengers can hardly get compensation for something as ridiculous as that. By this logic we should ban all road vehicles from our roads that don't have CDL? And again we're back to the CDL argument, in fact it's perfectly feasible to fit CDL to slammers. "Oh but there's too many doors" you may say, but I'm being realistic here and talking about CIGs, which were amazingly reliable and in good condition on SWT!

sometimes the juice rail is opposite the platform

Sometimes? No, not quite...

Even so, falling between a platform and a moving train isn't going to leave you without injury...

Ah, I've got an idea. All roads to be fenced and CDL to all road vehicles! That way people won't fall from cars or fall from pavements into cars

 

[yorkie]

All those who are in denial about the huge costs of the railways now that we have heavy, inefficient and expensive to lease/maintain/operate trains, can you please answer this:

What is safer?
* Trains with slam doors and service levels maintained
OR
* Trains with slide doors but service and line closures forcing people onto the roads, leading to more road accidents?

As, due to the railways spiralling costs (which have been conveniently ignored, again in recent posts), we may well end up with the latter. The question is when and which lines are to close rather than if, sadly.

 

[Bonnie Prince Charlie]

I cant believe you can all talk so much crap to each other. I wasted my time reading all those petty arguments. Whats done is done, im afraid new trains are here to stay and the old ones to go. There is no point arguing about it. The best thing for this topic is for it to be locked like i previously mentioned. It just frays peoples tempers!

 

[Lewisham2221]

Amazing how your argument is allowed to change from one paragraph to the next. One minute it's VEP's with lot's of doors so people can get on quicker, the next it's CIG's with less doors to make CDL viable

You also increasingly refer to the argument with SWT. Is this because things are different with other TOC's?

Also, your arguments against roads seemingly only apply to cars. The chances of falling out of a moving bus or coach are quite small. Increasing numbers of new buses do have a form of CDL where the door can only be opened when the bus is stopped and the bus cannot pull off if the door is open. As for people falling from pavements....what the hell has that got to do with anything?

 

[yorkie]

Amazing how your argument is allowed to change from one paragraph to the next. One minute it's VEP's with lot's of doors so people can get on quicker, the next it's CIG's with less doors to make CDL viable

I was answering individual points, which also "changed from one paragraph to the next".

You also increasingly refer to the argument with SWT. Is this because things are different with other TOC's?

Again, I would question how much experience you have of travelling on trains in general but especially in the former Southern Region. SWT were, of course, the first TOC to get rid of the slam-doors[1], so they've experienced it. They're the only TOC in the Southern Region to really operate true express (virtually InterCity) running and are the busiest of the 3 TOCs in question, so I'd argue there are many reasons why they make a good choice. As for Southern/SET, I'll leave that to TomC to answer.

Also, your arguments against roads seemingly only apply to cars. The chances of falling out of a moving bus or coach are quite small.

The chances of falling out of a moving train are very small.

Increasing numbers of new buses do have a form of CDL where the door can only be opened when the bus is stopped and the bus cannot pull off if the door is open. As for people falling from pavements....what the hell has that got to do with anything?

Well if you argue that slam doors must be got rid of in case someone falls off it, I'd argue that there is much more chance of someone stepping off a pavement onto a road. So at what point do you decide to spend money getting rid of one risk instead of another risk? It "has to do" with risk. We cannot eliminate all risks, we must evaluate them for value for money. Which brings us to the question that you seem reluctant to answer (see above)

[1] On the main line, excluding lymington heritage branch

 

[yorkie]

Whats done is done, im afraid new trains are here to stay and the old ones to go. There is no point arguing about it.

Is this an example of 'boiling frog syndrome' [1] in action?

Basically, the rising costs are ignored, they rise uncontrollably and no-one wants to debate or question it, eventually the costs get too large the Government gets a huge bill and.... [to be completed by the DfT :cry: ]

[1] Scroll to the bottom, or visit here for another description - first para only, but regular readers of Modern Railways will already know about 'boiling frog syndrome' and how it is a severe threat to the rail industry.

 

[Tom C]

Increasing numbers of new buses do have a form of CDL where the door can only be opened when the bus is stopped and the bus cannot pull off if the door is open

That is only on dual door buses, you can still open the front doors when you are moving and that applies to everything even Artics.

There are a few key factors to running a train company...

1) Run trains (something that is obviously not in Central Trains business plan)

2) Run trains efficiently, something which is obviously not in long distance operators business plans because replaceing perfectly useable coachs with Multiple units which cannot be justified is simply madness. Before some smart alec comes out with age look at what GNER have done to the Mk4 coaches and yes before some even smarter alec comes back with "but most were Mk3 coaches" the theory behind refurbishment or "refresh" in PR jargon is simple, improve what is already good!. I will be interested to see what GNER plan to do with the HST sets, if the Mk4's are anything to go by they should be very good and perhaps a very costly lession about waste!.

3) Run a punctual train service, it is funny how none of the long distance operators can achieve targets for puncuality over a full year, yes they can do it for the odd period but consistancy is the key and funnily enough most of the figures for punctuality are worse since coaching stock were replaced by over complicated multiple units.

4) Run a reliable train service (i.e get trains to actually turn up). Nearly every new train that has entered service in this country over the past 4 or 5 years have been nothing short of a joke in this respect. Virgin are actually pleased that Pendolino's have achieved 8k in the mpc figures. I am sorry but this is an appauling figure. All the Southern Mk1 replacements are still a country mile away from the figures of the trains they replaced some after 4 years of service. Networkers are over 10 years old and still nowhere near the figure for the EPB's and never will get close!. Let me put it simply would you rather have a train turn up 9/10 or a train 6/10 that looks modern? that is the reality make your choice!.

5) Run a comfortable service for your passengers. I cannot get over the fact that people would rather be crammed into a 4 (5 if you are lucky) coach Voyager with its rock hard seats rather than get on an HST with its reasonably nice comfortable seats?. Or how about a Pendolino with one of the worst interiors ever to befit any vehicle let alone a train over a 87+Mk3's. The ambience is appauling, the seats are horrid, the train is cheaply built which means everything rattles after such a short time, the toilets smell if you can find one which works and after all that you have a piece of beige plastic to look at, great fun!. I know Mk3 coaches didn't always have lined up windows but none were as bad as that!.

And now you have your 5 ingredients for a train service.

If you can't do stage one, you will have buses which nobody wants

As Yorkie has mentioned, the cost of the new trains, signalling and track upgrades, power supply upgrades, depot modifications etc etc have cost absolute fortune and sooner or later that is going to catch up with us all and how that is going to affect you? a) your pocket and possibly b) your local train line being closed because it is economically unviable because there are no resources left? you think that is a long shot??

Stage 3 & 4 is already having an impact with no connections as it is so that 5 minute gap between trains is important. But the hyper sensitive alarm in the toilet which is faulty has set off the alarms and the train has grinded to a halt, you now miss your connection, whens your next train, a couple of hours? the next day? Mr First Time traveller is going to be really impressed with that, think he is going to come back?. Remember the new trains are all riddled with software faults which never seem to be ironed out and these incidents happen very regularly, and I can tell you that from bitter experience especially the Southern region Mk1 replacements. Remember the humble Mk1's with twist and go technology? remember them? the trains that turned up every day come rain or shine and got you to where you were going in simple comfort without the need for an automatic door on the toilet which if it goes wrong shuts down the train, or the Air conditioning which when broken makes the train unexplainably uncomfortable or the stupid CIS screens which never work properly.

And stage 5, well I will leave that to personal preference but from what I have read in various rail magazines, passenger user groups etc etc trains like the Pendolino have gone down like a lead balloon. Mr Thompson who pays £5,000 for his season ticket isn't impressed with having piles after taking his train to work every morning or the fact that failures are SO regular that waiting 2 hours for a train becomes common place.

Sorry chaps progress isn't what it is made out to be, yes the trains look super sexy with curves and lines and eleventy million watt light bulbs but from the broader picture the new trains have brought nothing new to the table, the best train in this country is still the HST, the most reliable train is still a 40 year old relic with slam doors and comfortable seats and the most punctual line is still a 7 mile railway with trains dating back to end of the second world war. Can you honestly say that any of the new breed of train can totally justify its existance other than the usual natural railway evalution? Maybe the 357 but after that............................

 

[Bonnie Prince Charlie]

2) Run trains efficiently, something which is obviously not in long distance operators business plans because replaceing perfectly useable coachs with Multiple units which cannot be justified is simply madness. Before some smart alec comes out with age look at what GNER have done to the Mk4 coaches and yes before some even smarter alec comes back with "but most were Mk3 coaches" the theory behind refurbishment or "refresh" in PR jargon is simple, improve what is already good!. I will be interested to see what GNER plan to do with the HST sets, if the Mk4's are anything to go by they should be very good and perhaps a very costly lession about waste!.
.........

You think the mk 4 mallard refurbs are good.... There already falling apart. nothing ever works on them, The galley is the most unspacious place on earth, yet to mention the cafe bar there is not enough room to swing a cat. I sincerly hope when the HSTs are refurbed, its not to this standard

 

[Southern]

I welcome the new trains but still will miss the old. Not such a big fan of the VEP, though. I personally found the seating arrangement terrible, unless I sat in a compartment. Standard Class was a mixture of knocking knees and having to scrunch in every time someone needed to open the door. I think my favourite slammer would have to be the CIG because of the large windows and little orange tables.

 

[heart-of-wessex]

You think the mk 4 mallard refurbs are good.... There already falling apart. nothing ever works on them, The galley is the most unspacious place on earth, yet to mention the cafe bar there is not enough room to swing a cat. I sincerly hope when the HSTs are refurbed, its not to this standard

Not enough room to swing a cat? that sounds like the FGW buffet cars then!

 

[Guinness]

IMO Slam Doors have come and gone. Been an excellent part of British Railways. New Replaces Old.

If you can't handle it then you have Withdrawal Symptoms. Moaning about it on a Forum won't solve anything, nor will complaining. Whats done is done. Besides you can't go back - Half of the Slammers have been scrapped.

Head over to a Preserved Railway such as EKR or GCR etc. Then continue your expearance - After all, that is one of the main objectives of a Preserved Railway.

50 year old Trains don't really look good on a Mainline Railway - Does it?

 

[yorkie]

IMO Slam Doors have come and gone. Been an excellent part of British Railways. New Replaces Old.

They have. It does but it should only do so if it's economically viable and is a genuine improvement.

If you can't handle it then you have Withdrawal Symptoms. Moaning about it on a Forum won't solve anything, nor will complaining.

You could say no forum discussions will 'solve' anything, so you could use that argument to not bother with forums. But if people want to discuss it, they should be able to, providing they use factual evidence.

Whats done is done. Besides you can't go back - Half of the Slammers have been scrapped.

Much more than half, unfortunately.

Head over to a Preserved Railway such as EKR or GCR etc. Then continue your expearance - After all, that is one of the main objectives of a Preserved Railway.

Yes but my argument isn't based on sentiment. If you read the posts by myself and Tom C you will understand that.

50 year old Trains don't really look good on a Mainline Railway - Does it?

Just because in your opinion they don't look good doesn't mean they don't look good to others.

But, again, I am not arguing on looks. I am talking about economics, capacity, costs, etc.

 

[heart-of-wessex]

IMO Slam Doors have come and gone. Been an excellent part of British Railways. New Replaces Old.

If you can't handle it then you have Withdrawal Symptoms. Moaning about it on a Forum won't solve anything, nor will complaining. Whats done is done. Besides you can't go back - Half of the Slammers have been scrapped.

Head over to a Preserved Railway such as EKR or GCR etc. Then continue your expearance - After all, that is one of the main objectives of a Preserved Railway.

50 year old Trains don't really look good on a Mainline Railway - Does it?

I agree with chaz there, sorry but if its new i get used to it, it takes me from A - B, so the 377s have rubbish seats some say (not that i find it a problem, nor voyagers) and I get used to it.

Moaning about it will stick to your and as Chaz says, youd get withdraw syndromes!

 

[yorkie]

I agree with chaz there, sorry but if its new i get used to it, it takes me from A - B, so the 377s have rubbish seats some say (not that i find it a problem, nor voyagers) and I get used to it.

See reply above.

Moaning about it will stick to your and as Chaz says, youd get withdraw syndromes!

I've never heard of that syndrome, but talking of withdrawals, did you know the Melksham line is one of those up for closure due to the money crisis?

 

[Dennis]

I think many of the above arguments are irrelevant - members of this forum (as a generalisation) like 'old' trains which offer more excitement (heads out, slamming doors, clag thrash and all the rest) rather than a genuinely improved travelling experience.

The majority of passengers think the new plastic is an improvement over older trains - just look at passenger satisfaction surveys. With my engineers hat on I must agree, lower NVH, controlled environment, improved performance etc are a real benefit and sentiment MUST not be allowed to impede progress.

I know there are reliability issues; robust engineering solutions to these must be found. Station dwell times are also extended but this is 2005 - ALL risks to passengers must be minimised otherwise the ambulance chasers will be smiling.

DO NOT CONFUSE REAL PROGRESS WITH ENTHUSIAST SENTIMENT