When is a child, not a child?

[duncombec]

A local paper recently carried a story about lost tourist attractions, and one such was 'illustrated' with an advert (dating sometime between 1934 and 1959) detailing bus connections. What also caught my attention, though, was that this attraction considered a child to be aged between 1 and 12.

It seems to me that just as tourist attractions have entry fees, us operators have a variety of different policies on "reduced rate" fares, be it purely in terms of age, options, ID requirements, etc. Many of them seem to consider a child fare to expire aged 16, and thus make travel substantially more expensive just at the point (aged 17) when they have an option on the horizon other than parental taxi or their own steam. So this got me thinking...
- when does a "legal child" (i.e. under 18) stop being a child on your local bus operator(s)?
- Are there any requirements beforehand to "prove" eligibility for reduced rate fares?
- Any other restrictions? (e.g. no return fares)

Do these "restrictions" have any effect - positive or negative - either from their, parent, or other adult perspectives? (And not just from the local newspaper "my kid got left behind in the rain by uncaring bus driver" headline perspective!)

For ease of discussion, bearing in mind the growing number of travel passes, I'm referring to normal fare conditions, i.e. an "on-bus" fare, "paid" to the driver for a particular journey or series thereof.

My local operator, Arriva Kent & Surrey, seems to still have the same policy as when I was that age, namely payment due between 5 and 16, with no ID card required (just the ability to front out the driver), and no return or child fares before 9am... which led to the quirk that once I no longer qualified for statutory travel under the 3 mile rule at 16, my journey to school cost twice as much as my journey home!

 

[James101]

First Potteries has the same parameters for children - 5 to 16 with no formal ID required, but advised.

What I find unusual is that children only qualify for 25% discount off the adult fare. In my experience the standard is 50% or a flat rate which is generally below 50% of adult fare.

I’d think this could be a false economy for First, as these relatively high child fares will push parents to opt for a taxi as the narrowing savings through catching the bus no longer outweigh the benefits of taxis.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

A local paper recently carried a story about lost tourist attractions, and one such was 'illustrated' with an advert (dating sometime between 1934 and 1959) detailing bus connections. What also caught my attention, though, was that this attraction considered a child to be aged between 1 and 12.

It seems to me that just as tourist attractions have entry fees, us operators have a variety of different policies on "reduced rate" fares, be it purely in terms of age, options, ID requirements, etc. Many of them seem to consider a child fare to expire aged 16, and thus make travel substantially more expensive just at the point (aged 17) when they have an option on the horizon other than parental taxi or their own steam. So this got me thinking...
- when does a "legal child" (i.e. under 18) stop being a child on your local bus operator(s)?
- Are there any requirements beforehand to "prove" eligibility for reduced rate fares?
- Any other restrictions? (e.g. no return fares)

Do these "restrictions" have any effect - positive or negative - either from their, parent, or other adult perspectives? (And not just from the local newspaper "my kid got left behind in the rain by uncaring bus driver" headline perspective!)

For ease of discussion, bearing in mind the growing number of travel passes, I'm referring to normal fare conditions, i.e. an "on-bus" fare, "paid" to the driver for a particular journey or series thereof.

My local operator, Arriva Kent & Surrey, seems to still have the same policy as when I was that age, namely payment due between 5 and 16, with no ID card required (just the ability to front out the driver), and no return or child fares before 9am... which led to the quirk that once I no longer qualified for statutory travel under the 3 mile rule at 16, my journey to school cost twice as much as my journey home!

Interesting question.

When I was a kid in the 1970s/80s, full fare on the bus started at 14. Just googled and I'm not certain if this was some overhang from when you could legally leave school and start work at 14..... The change to the school leaving age to 15 occurred in 1947!

Local to me, it's free 0-4, then half fare 5-15. If you're 16-21, it's a third off but you have to have either a free First photo pass OR a student ID.

IIRC, when Avon Buses went in Merseyside, one issue cited was the Merseytravel MyTicket for those under 18. No ID needed and apparently, revenue fell appreciably. More on it here https://www.route-one.net/news/avon_buses_blames_myticket_for_sudden_demise/

 

[scotrail158713]

The Young Scot card is available to all 12-26 year olds in Scotland and gives many discounts for shopping and travel. One it has is to give all 16-18 year olds in Scotland 1/3 off the adult price of bus and train fares within Scotland.

What I find unusual is that children only qualify for 25% discount off the adult fare.

Bizarre! I don’t think I’ve ever come across any operator that isn’t 50% off for children.

 

[Eyersey468]

Southern Vectis was 14 when we lived on the Isle of Wight, not sure if it still is. East Yorkshire is 16, though if someone age 16-18 is at college there is a 16-18 fare which is about half way between half and full fare. With EY under 5s travel free.

 

[NorthOxonian]

With Go North East, a child single fare is available for anyone under 19 (it's a flat rate of £1.20), and child rate day and season tickets for anyone aged up to (and including) 25. However, they do ask for ID if you look older than 16. What's interesting is that for many journeys, if you're in your early twenties, it can be cheaper to buy a discounted day ticket than a full fare single!

Sanders Coaches in Norfolk have a third price band between the child and adult day ticket fares called "Inbetweener" - I really hope that's a reference to the TV series!

 

[RT4038]

Bizarre! I don’t think I’ve ever come across any operator that isn’t 50% off for children.

Lots of bus companies changed to three quarters or two thirds or no child fares on Mo-Fr before 9am in the 1970s. Without evidence, but I would say that it was National Bus Company policy to introduce such policies.

At that time, lots of 'non-entitled' (i.e. less than 3 miles/2 miles under 11) children travelled by bus to school, and bus companies were providing many special school journeys to cater for them, either as stand alone specials or duplicates to normal service buses. The cost of providing these services was often high (extra bus in the fleet + extra crew, for use 190 days per annum), with a low revenue from half fares over shortish distances. A view was also taken that a child occupies a seat the same as an adult, so there was no justification for a cheaper fare. However, abolition of child fares completely was probably considered too hot a potato!

De-regulation removed the responsibiliy of providing uneconomic school specials, and the number of adult passengers had reduced considerably, so the economic landscape had changed and many companies have reverted to half fares to encourage travel.

 

[cnjb8]

Sanders Coaches in Norfolk have a third price band between the child and adult day ticket fares called "Inbetweener" - I really hope that's a reference to the TV series!

Got to be surely, in that case well done Sanders

 

[GusB]

Because I didn't attend my official zoned secondary school, I had to pay bus fares when the kids from the village three miles further away were given season tickets by the school. My parents could have paid for a season ticket, but it was difficult for them to afford the upfront money at the time, and the point-to-point unlimited Commuter Card didn't have a child option. I was able to take advantage of 10-journey tickets which cost the same as 8 half singles.

When I turned sixteen I had to pay full fare, but there were quite a few sympathetic drivers who thought it unfair that some people got free transport to school and those from my village didn't and they would "accidentally" ring up a half fare or, if I was using a return or a 10-journey, I'd often find that the hole punch missed the spot.

 

[geoffk]

BR charged full fare on trains at 14 in the 1960s and I'm not sure when this was increased, maybe in 1972 when the school leaving age was raised to 16. Policy on buses varied between the state-owned and municipal sectors as far as I recall. Looking at the NBC timetables which I have for the 1960s, they also seemed to charge full fare at 14. My Sheffield timetable from 1966 states half fare at age 5 (but only 3 in the East Midland Traffic Area). On municipal buses it was generally half fare up to the 15th birthday. Nowadays it's usually a reduced (not necessarily half) fare up to the 16th birthday, except when travelling to or from school.

 

[Mojo]

When I went to York I was quite surprised that Child fare is only available up until age 11, with children 11-16 being required to have a card that is issued by the City Council to those who are resident, or study in the City of York boundary.

I’d never previously been anywhere else where someone 15 or under wasn’t considered a child, and would have thought that it would at least be consistent by operating company.

Is this a historical thing (ie. did the former municipal bus operator in York have a non-standard age)?

 

[buslad1988]

From my travels across the UK I’ve generally found “half fare” to be more a northern thing.

Although altered in the past 2-3 years; Ipswich Buses child fare scheme was controversial... anyone over 11 had to have a company issued ID card or pay full adult fare - they would not even accept passports as proof of ID. Caused many conflicts!

 

[PG]

Bizarre! I don’t think I’ve ever come across any operator that isn’t 50% off for children.

First Aberdeen is another that only offer 25% reduction on child fares.

When I went to York I was quite surprised that Child fare is only available up until age 11, with children 11-16 being required to have a card that is issued by the City Council to those who are resident, or study in the City of York boundary.

Does that mean that any non resident under 16s visiting the City have to pay an adult fare?

 

[Mojo]

Does that mean that any non resident under 16s visiting the City have to pay an adult fare?

Looks like it, unless under 11.

 

[charley_17/7]

Having all these different restrictions based on individual companies, as well as local authority areas, only highlights what an excellent scheme both London and Scotland have.

If we can have a national pass for concessionary travel for older persons, why not for younger people, and while we are at it, why not multi-modal?

No wonder we have traffic congestion and an obesity problem, as well as multiple generations who see car use as 'normalised'.

 

[PG]

Looks like it, unless under 11.

I have a vague memory of reading (way back) the booklets published by the then Department of Transport describing the coming new world of bus deregulation. One was for would be new entrants which IIRC said an operator was free (pun not intended) to set fares as they wished, including whether or not to offer discounts e.g. for children, though it did suggest that offering discounts might be a way to gain a competitive advantage.

 

[Geordie driver]

Going back to pre deregulation ,Tyne and Wear had a flat child fare of 5p, up to 14 years old without a pass or 16 with a pass. Parts of Northumberland had half adult fare, iirc Cumbria had a ⅔ adult fare. I was brought up to believe child fare was lower as they were expected to stand for an adult full fare payer to sit.

Good luck with that.

Loads of aggro with people who were clearly adults trying to travel at a child fare, I have had drunk people at midnight trying to claim they were a child.

 

[Andyh82]

In West Yorks, its free for under 5s, half fare up to age 11

Then from age 11 you need a Photocard which is issued free and allows continued half fare travel

16-18 you need a different photocard which costs £5 and still allows half fare travel

19-25 year olds also have access to discounted M Card products both for buses and trains, but otherwise would be full fare. This is available for students over 25 as well.

 

[Pat1105]

In the West Midlands, a child fare is up to 18, provided that the relevant photocard is shown. If a card isn’t shown, then the full adult fare should be charged.

 

[Geordie driver]

This thread has triggered some memories, IIRC under 5s travelled free but with the provision they were accompanied by an adult. We had a couple of services specifically for first schools where the parents would stand and argue that their kids should travel free. Seemed a bit pointless and petty to charge them, but there was a very real chance an inspector would get on, unlike a senior school run.

I often didn't charge them if the parent asked nicely/gave me her number, I even recall paying for some out of my own pocket as they had no money.

We had a faith based school where the kids at the start of the run paid, as they had chosen a different school to their nearest same faith school, then some got on with a free pass as they lived the required distance (3 miles?) from the school but were in its catchment area, then as you got nearer others had to pay. Made little sense, especially since kids were a flat fare.

Having said that, the kids could pretty much do what they liked, you were on a hiding to nothing trying to control them. Many of them were really canny.

 

[Pat1105]

We had a faith based school where the kids at the start of the run paid, as they had chosen a different school to their nearest same faith school, then some got on with a free pass as they lived the required distance (3 miles?) from the school but were in its catchment area, then as you got nearer others had to pay. Made little sense, especially since kids were a flat fare.

Where I used to live, there was an estate where kids on one side of the road had a free bus pass, whereas the other side didn’t. Lead to some very disgruntled students, who had to pay and others didn’t.

 

[APT618S]

Remember a few years back when a family of two adults and two children got on a First Leeds bus. The driver queried the age of the elder child to which the adult said 4. The child then spoke up loudly in an indignant voice that he was 6 and a half !! To which most of the lower deck burst out laughing. The parents sheepishly paid up and disappeared upstairs. I wonder how much trouble the child was in !

 

[etr221]

Somewhere I've been - abroad, but can't remember wher - had a 'height' test for children - there was a mark on a convenient pole, if your height was less, you qualified for child rate, if more you were an adult!

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Somewhere I've been - abroad, but can't remember wher - had a 'height' test for children - there was a mark on a convenient pole, if your height was less, you qualified for child rate, if more you were an adult!

A very disgruntled Snow White paying full fare, meanwhile.........

 

[TravelDream]

Somewhere I've been - abroad, but can't remember wher - had a 'height' test for children - there was a mark on a convenient pole, if your height was less, you qualified for child rate, if more you were an adult!

Height fares are more common than some would imagine.
You find them here in the UK at tourist attractions like theme parks. I suppose it makes sense there as nobody below 1.2/3 metres can ride the 'big rides'.

 

[PG]

Somewhere I've been - abroad, but can't remember wher - had a 'height' test for children - there was a mark on a convenient pole, if your height was less, you qualified for child rate, if more you were an adult!

Quick quick! The bus is coming, take off your shoes

 

[A Challenge]

My local operator, Arriva Kent & Surrey, seems to still have the same policy as when I was that age, namely payment due between 5 and 16, with no ID card required (just the ability to front out the driver), and no return or child fares before 9am... which led to the quirk that once I no longer qualified for statutory travel under the 3 mile rule at 16, my journey to school cost twice as much as my journey home!

My experience of Arriva Kent and Surrey (and Stagecoach South) was that it was under 16 for child fares, or a bus fare card for 16-19s in college - but I don't ever remember there being a 0900 restriction on child fares.

 

[PeterC]

When I was at school in Romford in the 60s those of us without free travel could get a London Transport pass that gave us child rates on schooldays at ages 14 and 15. These were issued through the school.

I made little use of mine as the bus journey was indirect involving a change and direct walking route was slightly quicker.

 

[JRT]

West Yorkshire, 1970s it was always half fare until 16.
A half fares pass for 16-18 available if travelling to school. Later the pass was half fare for all journeys.
When Omo came in, it was hard for drivers to tell ages at a glance, so younger-looking passengers took advantage, so all 13-16s had to have a pass to get half fare. Which I suppose is reasonable. However the powers that be deemed it would be better to have it age 11, at the school change. So you had the bizarre sight of tiny schoolchildren being refused half fare cos of the rules.

*mod note*
ptb? please explain

 

[Simon75]

Around about 15 years or so Arriva The Shires (High Wycombe at least)
Children fares were 50% of adult.
They then changed it to 25%. Not sure what they are now