When Up Becomes Down

[wheelnrail]

If this has been asked before, i apologise, and would like to see the thread. So I've slowly grasped the terminology of Up and Down lines and it had me wondering, for Thameslink (or any other lines in London), lines towards the capital is Up at both directions. At what point in the Thameslink Core does the line status change from Up to Down for the respective tracks? Is it Blackfriars, Farringdon, or St Pancras, or is it a particular street or landmark the core passes under? It sounds pedantic, but its something i'm very curious about knowing.

 

[richa2002]

I believe Farringdon is when Up switches to Down and vice versa.

 

[3141]

I don't know the answer, but a similar question will arise for Crossrail.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I believe Farringdon is when Up switches to Down and vice versa.

Logical, because pantographs do the same at that point!

 

[21C101]

I don't know the answer, but a similar question will arise for Crossrail.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Logical, because pantographs do the same at that point!

The boundary is as far as I know the south end of Farringdon station as that is the boundary between the Metropolitan Railway and the London Chatham and Dover Railway, and later the SR/LMR regional boundary.

The pantograph now switches at City Thameslink on northbound trains.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

When I worked down there, about ten years ago now, southbound services went 'Up' to Moorgate, and 'down' from Moorgate. Southbound services to Brighton and Sutton joined the Down Snowhill at Farringdon Junction, while northbound services joined the Down Moorgate from the Up Snowhill.

The junction no longer exists though, thanks to the platform lengthening, but that is where the change is, the Up Moorgate becomes the Down Snowhill and the Up Snowhill becomes the Down Moorgate (although they might now be renamed)

I guess the landmark is the start of the right hand turn (heading south) at the south end of the platforms at Farringdon, under the London Underground ticket hall (assuming it is still the LUL ticket hall). The line to Moorgate followed the LUL lines to the left.

Thameslink does have another change of up and down, the less well known change at Sutton, where the Up Wimbledon* diverges from the Down Portsmouth and the Down Wimbledon* joins the Up Portsmouth.

*It's been ten years since I had to know the names of those lines so it might not be entirely correct on that front.

 

[edwin_m]

The Sectional Appendixes will have information on this.

I suggested to the Crossrail team in 2009 that their Up/Down change should happen just west of Westbourne Park, to coincide with the change of control from the Crossrail central section to Great Western main line, but I don't know what they actually did.

 

[W230]

The boundary is as far as I know the south end of Farringdon station as that is the boundary between the Metropolitan Railway and the London Chatham and Dover Railway, and later the SR/LMR regional boundary.

According to the sign in the 6 foot it is north end of Farringdon.

Up Moorgate becomes Down Snow Hill etc. Having said that it may have changed since the link to the Moorgate lines that ran round the corner was severed - which would make sense.

There are a few other places I can think of where this happens although they are at junctions... At Peckham Rye, the Down South London either continues as Down Portsmouth or joins the Up Atlantic. At Loughborough Junction the Down Holborns (Fast & Slow) have a connection with the Up Brixton Spur. And at Tulse Hill, the Down Portsmouth and Down Holborn (Down platform loop) join with the Up line into Streatham Hill.

Etc etc etc...

 

[swt_passenger]

There was a Network Change notice published to reposition the territory maintenance and signalling boundaries to the north end of Farringdon back in Jan 2010, all resulting from the lifting of the redundant junction. A handful of signals and points were re-controlled from WH to VS at the same time, I'd have thought the 'Moorgate' line names might be changed to something different as they no longer go there, but then this is the railway isn't it...

 

[bussnapperwm]

I think Smethwick Galton Bridge has a change. Either there or Smethwick West...

 

[Cherry_Picker]

Miles away from London it happens at Stourbridge too, on the Birmingham side of SBJ station at the junction between the Snow Hill lines and the South Staffs (freight) line. The line is marked to Paddington via Worcester on one side and to Paddington via Oxford on the other. This means that Marylebone bound trains from Kidderminster are actually going down to London for about eight miles until they are through Stourbridge Junction station.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Direction changes occur in these areas: Shacklegate Junction on the Kingston loop, Whitton Junction on the Hounslow loop, an oddity is the line between Fareham & St Denys because that's the up Netley, yet it's going away from London.

 

[route:oxford]

Somewhere near Falkirk (both High and Grahamston) the lines switch from Up to Down.

Imagine it'll be the same somewhere near Bicester Village station.

 

[21C101]

The Sectional Appendixes will have information on this.

I suggested to the Crossrail team in 2009 that their Up/Down change should happen just west of Westbourne Park, to coincide with the change of control from the Crossrail central section to Great Western main line, but I don't know what they actually did.

As it will be owned by TfL I wouldn't be entirely surprised if crossrail metals use Eastbound and Westbound and delineate in kilometres from Ongar.

 

[swt_passenger]

As it will be owned by TfL I wouldn't be entirely surprised if crossrail metals use Eastbound and Westbound and delineate in kilometres from Ongar.

The ELL proves otherwise then doesn't it?

(Goes and checks Anglia SA...)

Change of mileage reference on the curve towards Dalston Jn. ELL Datum is at 0m 250yds, which is 2m 369yds on the NLL.

Directions are Down ELL from Highbury and Islington, Dalston Jn station is at 0m 20ch.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

All sorts of oddments - Cardiff Valleys is up to to the valley end (I believe) - logical I suppose - and "up" to Hereford from Newport.

 

[westcoaster]

When I worked down there, about ten years ago now, southbound services went 'Up' to Moorgate, and 'down' from Moorgate. Southbound services to Brighton and Sutton joined the Down Snowhill at Farringdon Junction, while northbound services joined the Down Moorgate from the Up Snowhill.

The junction no longer exists though, thanks to the platform lengthening, but that is where the change is, the Up Moorgate becomes the Down Snowhill and the Up Snowhill becomes the Down Moorgate (although they might now be renamed)

I guess the landmark is the start of the right hand turn (heading south) at the south end of the platforms at Farringdon, under the London Underground ticket hall (assuming it is still the LUL ticket hall). The line to Moorgate followed the LUL lines to the left.

Thameslink does have another change of up and down, the less well known change at Sutton, where the Up Wimbledon* diverges from the Down Portsmouth and the Down Wimbledon* joins the Up Portsmouth.

*It's been ten years since I had to know the names of those lines so it might not be entirely correct on that front.

* its the up and down st helier.

 

[edwin_m]

As it will be owned by TfL I wouldn't be entirely surprised if crossrail metals use Eastbound and Westbound and delineate in kilometres from Ongar.

Unless things have changed radically from when I worked there, it will be controlled by whichever Network Rail signalling centre also controls the Liverpool Street area. I supposed the chainage could come from Ongar via the long-extinct connection to the Central north of Stratford...

 

[Donny Dave]

It's the same around here. From Doncaster your heading 'down' (towards Leeds/York), but as soon as you cross onto the 'up' line (from Leeds/York) going across Marshgate Jn, your then heading 'up' to Scunthorpe and Barnetby. I do believe there is another direction chage at Wrawby Jn as well, but I'll leave that for an expert to confirm (paging [/b]Tomnick[/b]).

What the situation is for the line towards Goole and Hull from Thorne Jn is, I've no idea, so again, an expert will have to explain that .....

 

[Tomnick]

It's the same around here. From Doncaster your heading 'down' (towards Leeds/York), but as soon as you cross onto the 'up' line (from Leeds/York) going across Marshgate Jn, your then heading 'up' to Scunthorpe and Barnetby. I do believe there is another direction chage at Wrawby Jn as well, but I'll leave that for an expert to confirm (paging [/b]Tomnick[/b]).

What the situation is for the line towards Goole and Hull from Thorne Jn is, I've no idea, so again, an expert will have to explain that .....

I feel honoured! There's quite a few changes of direction around there. Leaving Sheffield on the Down (ex Manchester, they're Up trains as far as Dore), it becomes the Up at Swinton, Down again through Doncaster itself, then back to the Up (as you say) at Marshgate Jn. They're then Up all the way to Cleethorpes (that was how the lines of the MS&LR were designated all the way from Manchester via Woodhead). Hull trains, though, become Down trains again at Thorne Jn.

 

[Donny Dave]

Ta muchly for the quick reply and corrections to my post. I knew there are a few changes in the area, but the only one I felt confident about mentioning (as it's the only one I know for certain) is the change from Down to Up at Marshgate Jn.

PS Quick question, seeing as it's related. What the designation of line from Cleethorpes to Newark? Cleethorpes to Barnetby will be down (after reading your post) but after that?

 

[Tomnick]

Down from Barnetby to Pelham Street Jn (also ex-GC), then Down over the former GN through Lincoln, then finally changing to Up at West Holmes Jn (after the 1980s BR section, ex-Midland).

 

[61653 HTAFC]

From Huddersfield, towards Manchester and Sheffield are 'Up', with Leeds and Wakefield being 'Down'. The Calder Valley route is also 'up' towards Manchester, meaning that services to Leeds via Bradford are heading 'down' until Bradley Junction (unsure how the curve is measured) and becomes 'up' through Brighouse until rounding the curve towards Halifax. Again I'm not sure where the curve is measured from, but after Dryclough Junction the service is then Down as far as Leeds, even with the reversal at BDI!

 

[Llama]

Not quite, it is Down to Bradford, then Up out of Bradford until Holbeck Jn when you join the Down Doncaster line (unless you get put facing-road at Wortley Jn then you are travelling in the Down direction on the Up Doncaster)...

Manchester Victoria is a datum point, zero milepost is in the middle of the through platforms where the L&Y headquarters were. All lines away from Manchester Vic are Down.

 

[Kentish Paul]

The Kent Coast lines are interesting.The line from Folkestone to Dover changes from the "down main" to "up Chatham" at the site of the former Hawkesbury Street Junction. At Buckland Junction the line to Canterbury becomes the "up main" while the line to Ramsgate becomes the "down Deal" and remains so until Ramsgate where down becomes up.

On the Marshlink The "down Ore" becomes the "up Hastings" at Hastings. Between Appledore and Ashford the line towards Ashford is the "up Hastings" and the other is the "down Hastings". Between Appledore and Ore it is known as the "Rye Single", up towards Ashford and down towards Hastings.

 

[Llama]

Between Mirfield East Jn and Thornhill LNW Jn you might be travelling on the same physical bit of P-way but the middle line is the Down L&Y if you are travelling in the Down (Wakefield) direction over it, and the same line is the Up Fast if you are travelling in the Up (Manchester) direction over it.

 

[swt_passenger]

.. an oddity is the line between Fareham & St Denys because that's the up Netley, yet it's going away from London.

When it was built it was done gradually from the St Denys end, the missing section towards Fareham was a later addition. So it is logically correct as built, and then it was correct for a facing branch off the up line from Gosport via Eastleigh, and then still correct when the up line from Portsmouth to Waterloo via Eastleigh was connected...

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Standing On the Anglo - Scottish border, it is 'up' northwards, towards Edinburgh or Glasgow, and 'up' southwards, towards Newcastle or Carlisle.

On the ECML, the change is on the border, though the nearest reference point is at signals EG 402 and 403 at Lamberton, a few hundred meters north of the border.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

To bring a little humour into the thread. may I make reference to one of the final scenes in "The Great St Trinians Train Robbery" where a totally and utterly confused member of the station staff was reporting the matters prevailing. to his control.

 

[Bill EWS]

The original naming would have been set by which direction a line took at a junction, whether it turned south onto the Up main (towards London) or north to the Down main.

E.G. Oxford to Bletcheley. You are heading north eastwards, therefore going away from London, in regards to Oxford, so the line towards Bletchley should be the down direction. When the triangle junction was at Bletchley you went onto the up when heading south towards London and Down, turning northwards.

To Scots it always seemed strange being on the Up line when you are heading south as outside the railway it is always heading 'South' to England. The majority of station in London were terminal stops therefore it didn't matter. However any through line would create the moment when the Up would become the Down and vice versa.

 

[The Planner]

Up and Down get reversed between Bicester and Oxford when it reopens.