When will Southern's ageing Class 455/8 get replaced?

[AAO]

I often commute on Southern Railway and on weekends in particular, I am likely to be stuck on a Southern Railway Class 455 that offers cramped 3 seating in an all family-style layout, no tables, no arm-rests, poor legroom, no toilet facilities, no coat hooks, no floor luggage racks, no First Class (that would offer better comfort), no air-conditioning, no plug-powerpoints, horribly bright lighting, and a very loud and jerky ride. I cannot be the only one who cannot stand this.
My question is when and how likely will the Class 455/8 get replaced, and why do Southern put the Class 377's in storage and utilise a high class 455 fleet on suburban services via Norbury and Crystal Palace.
Now, I understand that the Class 379's from Greater Anglia will be free (after they get replaced by new Stadler and Bombardier trains) which have similar characteristics as the existing Class 377/6 on the suburban southern network. Is this a possibility or will they end up with East Midlands Railway?
The Class 707's are said to be going to southeastern from what I can understand, and I don't think their Class 377/5's will ever be seen absorbed onto the Southern Network.
What about the Class 458's from South Western Railway?
Also why does the C2C Class 387 have Southern moquette? Will they eventually go to Southern? Sorry if there is loads of questions, but I am just so confused why what it appears to be new electrostar Southern trains going to C2C, Great Northern and Southeastern, when they have ageing trains from the 1980's. I much rather the Class 319 come onto the southern network, they offer a much moor comfortable ride than the Class 455's that just have a very jerky motor ride.

 

[ic31420]

They sound like luxury. You should try living in the north most of our fleet are like that. With the addition of a diesel engine. And that's the good stuff.

 

[Andrew Holland]

They sound like luxury. You should try living in the north most of our fleet are like that. With the addition of a diesel engine. And that's the good stuff.

I was thinking exactly the same thing! Wonder how the OP would have coped with a Pacer?!

 

[ic31420]

I'm still trying to get over the lack of coat hooks.

 

[jopsuk]

When the Southern 455s get replaced there's a decent chance it'll be with something similar to the Class 707- 2+2 seating with wide aisles, no loos (maybe- we're of course seeing SWR introduce loos on their 455 replacement), no 1st, no coat hooks etc (though with AC). They're Metro trains on Metro routes.

Even if the 379s were brought across (and 30 units is not enough to replace 46)they would have their airport-express interior entirely ripped out and replaced with a metro seating layout (a SSouthern class 455 has 307 seats, a 379 has 209, of which 20 are first, with relatively poor standing capacity)

 

[Neptune]

Seating. You should try one of Northerns 150’s, especially the ones with the original seats with the legroom of a small mammal.

First class. Why would you need first class on a unit used for metro services?

Aircon. It is great if reliable but so long as the heating is efficient it is ample for the winter and windows can be opened in the summer.

Toilets. Are the routes long enough to justify the loss in capacity.

Power sockets. Useful but is it essential on short journeys?

Lighting? Bright lighting aids security at night. I know it can be harsh but better than the dimly lit suburban stock from the past.

Coat hooks? Really? This seems really like a first world millennial issue.

Noise? Try a booming Diesel engine under your feet for half an hour.

Yes they are old but vastly better than some of the more modern units out there and at least they‘re electric.

 

[bramling]

I often commute on Southern Railway and on weekends in particular, I am likely to be stuck on a Southern Railway Class 455 that offers cramped 3 seating in an all family-style layout, no tables, no toilet facilities, no coat hooks, no floor luggage racks, no First Class, no air-conditioning, no plug-powerpoints, horribly bright lighting, and a very loud and jerky ride. I cannot be the only one who cannot stand this.
My question is when and how likely will the Class 455/8 get replaced, and why do Southern put the Class 377's in storage and utilise a high class 455 fleet on suburban services via Norbury and Crystal Palace.
Now, I understand that the Class 379's from Greater Anglia will be free (after they get replaced by new Stadler and Bombardier trains) which have similar characteristics as the existing Class 377/6 on the suburban southern network. Is this a possibility or will they end up with East Midlands Railway?
The Class 707's are said to be going to southeastern from what I can understand, and I don't think their Class 377/5's will ever be seen absorbed onto the Southern Network.
What about the Class 458's from South Western Railway?
Also why does the C2C Class 387 have Southern moquette? Will they eventually go to Southern? Sorry if there is loads of questions, but I am just so confused why what it appears to be new electrostar Southern trains going to C2C, Great Northern and Southeastern, when they have ageing trains from the 1980's. I much rather the Class 319 come onto the southern network, they offer a much moor comfortable ride than the Class 455's that just have a very jerky motor ride.

I tend to agree with the sentiments elsewhere on this thread - Southern's 455s aren't bad at all for the work they do, they are metro units after all.

As to when they will be replaced, I'd say it's quite likely the next franchise will replace them, whenever that may be. Numerous possibilities for what replacement may involve - either new build or some kind of cascade.

 

[Fincra5]

I often commute on Southern Railway and on weekends in particular, I am likely to be stuck on a Southern Railway Class 455 that offers cramped 3 seating in an all family-style layout, no tables, no toilet facilities, no coat hooks, no floor luggage racks, no First Class, no air-conditioning, no plug-powerpoints, horribly bright lighting, and a very loud and jerky ride. I cannot be the only one who cannot stand this.
My question is when and how likely will the Class 455/8 get replaced, and why do Southern put the Class 377's in storage and utilise a high class 455 fleet on suburban services via Norbury and Crystal Palace.
Now, I understand that the Class 379's from Greater Anglia will be free (after they get replaced by new Stadler and Bombardier trains) which have similar characteristics as the existing Class 377/6 on the suburban southern network. Is this a possibility or will they end up with East Midlands Railway?
The Class 707's are said to be going to southeastern from what I can understand, and I don't think their Class 377/5's will ever be seen absorbed onto the Southern Network.
What about the Class 458's from South Western Railway?
Also why does the C2C Class 387 have Southern moquette? Will they eventually go to Southern? Sorry if there is loads of questions, but I am just so confused why what it appears to be new electrostar Southern trains going to C2C, Great Northern and Southeastern, when they have ageing trains from the 1980's. I much rather the Class 319 come onto the southern network, they offer a much moor comfortable ride than the Class 455's that just have a very jerky motor ride.

Nothing in this Franchise. Unless the DfT, who pull the strings, decide otherwise.

First Class ins't needed on Metro Trains. No powerplugs really...

455s are out because people still have to drive them and they, like all other stock, can't just be left idle for months on end. It is also a Sunday service and for ease its, mostly, kept to the Sunday Diagrams for Crew and Trains.

379s would require a big refit inside to metro style but yes could be possible. 3rd Rail Shoes and associated equipment would need it be fitted.458s are a no go in the Metro; They're not equipped for DOO at all.

C2Cs 387s, are "Temporary" and are a follow on for the 387/1s that Southern Ordered - which ended up on Thameslink and the Great Northerm.

Also, if its THAT bad, wait for a 377 to come along...

 

[RichJF]

There's nothing wrong with the Southern 455s. I don't know why people 'poo' on them so much. They're decently equipped and suited to the runs they do - Metro services that usually last an hour or so.
They've just been through the latest round of PRM mods which bring them up to a standard comparable with SWR 455s (with DC traction obviously). They'll probably tender a replacement in the next franchise in my opinion.

I think Southern have more pressing issues with replacing the 313s on the Coastway as they are 6-7 years older than the 455s.

 

[Energy]

Wait, some trains have coat hooks? I thought you either just wear your coat or you can put it in the rack overhead, some of the overhead racks are small enough the only thing that can fit is a coat!

 

[D365]

Wait, some trains have coat hooks? I thought you either just wear your coat or you can put it in the rack overhead, some of the overhead racks are small enough the only thing that can fit is a coat!

Yep, they're subtle but you can often find hooks between the window panes.

 

[Energy]

Yep, they're subtle but you can often find hooks between the window panes.

Not needed for metro though.

 

[387star]

The 387s Great Northern were ordered for Thameslink as a temporary solution to release 319s prior to the delayed 700s. They later went to Great Northern. C2C is a small temporary solution before new trains arrive there. So the C2C units will definitely become available but it's a tiny number. 387s had southern interiors as they had it ready to go at the time.

377/5 went to southeastern but their future long term is uncertain. They were used on fcc and later thameslink services but we're originally intended for southern hence southern interiors

455s could be better if refurbished like the swr units.

 

[Domh245]

Southern's Metro routes include the services out as far as Horsham and Caterham with Journeys of around an hour end to end. It's not exactly a hardship to add these where there are window pillars.

 

[Fincra5]

Southern's Metro routes include the services out as far as Horsham and Caterham with Journeys of around an hour end to end. It's not exactly a hardship to add these where there are window pillars.

No 455 reaches Horsham anymore.

 

[D365]

Not needed for metro though.

I meant trains in general.

 

[London Trains]

Southern's Metro routes include the services out as far as Horsham and Caterham with Journeys of around an hour end to end. It's not exactly a hardship to add these where there are window pillars.

No 455s reach Horsham, Dorking (99% sure) or Guildford, and only the really slow Caterham services use 455s (from LBG they should only be used up to Selhurst). From London the furthest stations you would most likely be on a 455 are for Carshalton Beeches / Selhurst / Anerley / Crystal Palace / Birkbeck as to go further out there are faster, 377 operated services.

 

[London Trains]

I do think they should be replaced, but this is unlikely this franchise.

When the Southeastern franchise is renewed it would make good sense for them to order a new fleet to replace everything (other than the 395s), then scrap the 465, 466, 376 and 375/9s and give the 377/5s, the 2 377/1s and the other 375s to Southern (I would reclassify these as 377s and fully refurbish them and repalce the seats with 377/6 style ironing boards with armrests and tables (not the awful 700 setup) and repaint them in Southern livery). The 707s would go somewhere else (not Southern).

Also I would scrap the Gatwick Express brand (all services to call at Clapham Jct and more services to the coast) and paint the 387s in Southern livery and swap out the seat covers to Southern ones. These would then be used across the network as well. Also the 6 C2C 387s could join them once they get the Aventras.

Once this is done the 455s and 313s could be scrapped. The 377/1 - 377/5s could then be refurbished to the same standards so Southern have a large fleet of trains with the same livery, seats etc, and would have more trains enabling them to lengthen trains to the max possible. Also first class would be scrapped across the franchise for extra capacity as it is pointless anyway.

 

[Aictos]

No 455s reach Horsham, Dorking (99% sure) or Guildford, and only the really slow Caterham services use 455s (from LBG they should only be used up to Selhurst). From London the furthest stations you would most likely be on a 455 are for Carshalton Beeches / Selhurst / Anerley / Crystal Palace / Birkbeck as to go further out there are faster, 377 operated services.

You used to get 455s on the Horsham's but they stopped with the introduction of the Class 377/6s and 377/7s although you did get a mix of both 455s and 377s when first introduced, now it's just 377s I believe?

 

[London Trains]

You used to get 455s on the Horsham's but they stopped with the introduction of the Class 377/6s and 377/7s although you did get a mix of both 455s and 377s when first introduced, now it's just 377s I believe?

There were 455s to Horsham right up until the May 2018 timetable where diagrams were simplified so trains did not switch between routes. Horsham and Dorking trains are always 377s now and run Horsham - Victoria - Epsom - Victoria - Horsham or Dorking - Victoria - Epsom - Victoria - Dorking. All stations on this line from Mitcham Eastfields to Horsham (other than Sutton on trains via West Croydon) have barely any 455 operated services.

 

[JonathanH]

When the Southeastern franchise is renewed it would make good sense for them to order a new fleet to replace everything (other than the 395s), then scrap the 465, 466, 376 and 375/9s

You don't scrap trains just because some people don't like the seats. The 375/9s have as much life ahead of them as any other 375s.

Also I would scrap the Gatwick Express brand (all services to call at Clapham Jct and more services to the coast) and paint the 387s in Southern livery and swap out the seat covers to Southern ones.

Again, what is the point?

 

[357 LTSRail]

then scrap the 465, 466, 376 and 375/9s

I'm not sure that would go down too well - the 376s and 375/9s are sub 20 year old trains that are (maybe bar seating) really quite good!

The 707s would go somewhere else (not Southern).

I think they'll be pretty well suited to SE to be honest. Anyways, as both a taxpayer and fare-payer, I certainly don't fancy funding a massive fleet replacement with all those perfectly good units being redundant - the railway needs to be cheaper and any avoidable train replacements won't help.

For the class 455/8s, they may be "okay" but they're the best part of 40 years old - I think for the decade of the 2020s the London area routes should have air conditioned trains with USB/power sockets and quiet interiors should be standard. I can't imagine they're terribly practical to maintain going forwards given most of the parts aren't really in production (maybe scavenging from the ex-SWR units would solve that) so a replacement (along with maybe Southern's 313s, although I'd say these are pretty good rattling along the coast for the time being) in the next decade would be necessary - preferably with an electrostar cascade (maybe a future Southeastern addition or 387 cascade from Great Northern & c2c would allow that) or an add-on class 701 order.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

455 seating layouts are a pain I admit and their urm, "refurbished" cab ends have been an eyesore for 15 years. But they're alright. I'd prefer an older 377-the ones with the small side table and the large comfy seats, but I'd rather a 455 than yet another Desiro.

 

[Starmill]

Didn't Southern significantly reduce the number of class 455 diagrams that are turned out daily (to support the full timetable that is) in 2018? They certainly reduced their geographic spread.

From 46 units, isn't it only a little over half that are called upon?

 

[Starmill]

Southern's Metro routes include the services out as far as Horsham and Caterham with Journeys of around an hour end to end. It's not exactly a hardship to add these where there are window pillars.

It is only 20 minutes from Caterham to East Croydon. If there is anybody travelling from Caterham to London via Streatham, I am very worried!

Someone will correct me if 455s are actually still to be found working the fast services from Caterham & Tattenham Corner?

 

[JonathanH]

Didn't Southern significantly reduce the number of class 455 diagrams that are turned out daily (to support the full timetable that is) in 2018? They certainly reduced their geographic spread.

From 46 units, isn't it only a little over half that are called upon?

No, it was discussed at one point that many would end up working only in the peak but actually they ended up using just as many as they did before. Many work as 8-car all day, just as the 377s work 10-car all day because it is disruptive to have units splitting at the end of the morning peak and joining at the start of the evening peak with all the empty stock moves that entails. Still something like 40 diagrams.

They have reduced their geographical spread, being limited mainly to the routes with an eight-car restriction (London Bridge to Beckenham Junction via Tulse Hill, London Bridge to Caterham via Tulse Hill, London Bridge to Coulsdon Town via Forest Hill, London Bridge to Sutton via Tulse Hill) and Victoria to Sutton and Epsom Downs via Norbury which could take 10-car but mainly use 8-455.

 

[JonathanH]

Someone will correct me if 455s are actually still to be found working the fast services from Caterham & Tattenham Corner?

No, except the 0801 and 1631 Victoria to Caterham (which don't split at Purley for Tattenham Corner)

 

[London Trains]

Didn't Southern significantly reduce the number of class 455 diagrams that are turned out daily (to support the full timetable that is) in 2018? They certainly reduced their geographic spread.

From 46 units, isn't it only a little over half that are called upon?

In May 2018 they simplified the diagrams which kept particular trains to particular routes. For example, the Victoria to Epsom/Dorking/Horsham route is self contained with only 377s. Similarly the London Bridge to Caterham and Tattenham Corner (377), London Bridge to Caterham (455), London Bridge to Coulsdon Town (455), London Bridge to Beckenham Jct (455), London Bridge to Epsom (377), Victoria to Epsom Downs (both) and Victoria to Sutton (both) are all self contained routes. London Bridge to Victoria and Victoria to West Croydon interwork: sidings - West Croydon - Victoria - London Bridge - Victoria - West Croydon - sidings.

 

[Energy]

then scrap the 465, 466, 376 and 375/9s

The 465s and 466s can be scrapped, the 376s are fine but a small fleet compare to the rest of SE metro so I would send them to Southern, if what Starmill said is true about only requiring just over a half then there will be enough 376s to replace the 455s. Then transfer the SE 377s across and there will be enough to replace the 313s.

 

[London Trains]

The 465s and 466s can be scrapped, the 376s are fine but a small fleet compare to the rest of SE metro so I would send them to Southern, if what Starmill said is true about only requiring just over a half then there will be enough 376s to replace the 455s. Then transfer the SE 377s across and there will be enough to replace the 313s.

Please keep the awful 376s away from Southern territory. However the 377s and some of the 375s (not the /9s) would do them well.