When will TPE direct Liverpool to Glasgow and Edinburgh trains start running?

[cle]

Could they run as 8 car 350 units and split at Carstairs or Carlisle?

Either that, or up the Liverpool to hourly (Glasgow only) and have Manchester as Edinburgh only, with a timed transfer at Preston or Lancaster - and some neat infographics and branding about how the service works. And then send the Manchester to run first, and faster (rationale being that Manc has the Cumbria trains also).

Stopping patterns with the Birmingham and fast London services could be played with too, if the Liverpool was making more of the local stops following the Manc-Edinburgh.

 

[Esker-pades]

Could they run as 8 car 350 units and split at Carstairs or Carlisle?

Either that, or up the Liverpool to hourly (Glasgow only) and have Manchester as Edinburgh only, with a timed transfer at Preston or Lancaster - and some neat infographics and branding about how the service works. And then send the Manchester to run first, and faster (rationale being that Manc has the Cumbria trains also).

Stopping patterns with the Birmingham and fast London services could be played with too, if the Liverpool was making more of the local stops following the Manc-Edinburgh.

Some services, mostly Edinburgh ones, already run as 8 coaches.

 

[AndrewE]

Some services, mostly Edinburgh ones, already run as 8 coaches.

So do a "Belgium" then, and run 12 Preston to Carstairs, dropping an appropriate number off the back for Edinburgh. An extra benefit is that it is flexible, allowing you to send the double unit on whichever flow needs most capacity at the particular time of day (stock availability and balancing moves permitting.)

 

[Esker-pades]

So do a "Belgium" then, and run 12 Preston to Carstairs, dropping an appropriate number off the back for Edinburgh. An extra benefit is that it is flexible, allowing you to send the double unit on whichever flow needs most capacity at the particular time of day (stock availability and balancing moves permitting.)

Given that TPE only have 10 350s in total, this wouldn't be possible.

 

[Agent_Squash]

So do a "Belgium" then, and run 12 Preston to Carstairs, dropping an appropriate number off the back for Edinburgh. An extra benefit is that it is flexible, allowing you to send the double unit on whichever flow needs most capacity at the particular time of day (stock availability and balancing moves permitting.)

And more importantly, there won't be any 350s to split soon after the 397 introduction

 

[Camden]

Manchester Airport (that place again!) to Scotland doesn't need 8 carriages to itself. Manchester city centre to Preston is a commuter flow. Preston to Scotland is Liverpool and Manchester combined passengers. A better solution would be four carriages to each city, with Manchester being supplemented (as Liverpool is served) with a 4 carriage EMU commuter train running in addition.

 

[47271]

I use the Manchester-Scotland directs a lot, and yes the Edinburgh services are much busier end to end.

I also travel frequently between Scotland and Liverpool and having to change is a pain in the neck for me and the large numbers of others alongside me. This has got worse since the Transpennines started missing Wigan, which offers a cross platform change northbound. Preston is big inconvenient station especially if you have luggage, and I can do without bouncing down the main line in a 319 with all its windows open. If I'm travelling to Liverpool now I always select a Virgin service stopping at Wigan, whether from Edinburgh or Glasgow.

I don't think that there's any need to overcomplicate Liverpool-Scotland services with portion working and other exotic ideas, but it would be handy to have them serving both Edinburgh and Glasgow alternately in the same way as the Manchester Airports do at the moment. Knowing how many people change at the moment, and how busy the Scottish TPEs are generally, my guess is that Glasgow and Edinburgh would see similar loadings from Liverpool. I'd happily build my travel plans around a relatively infrequent direct service, although anything less than a train every three hours wouldn't be enough.

 

[AndrewE]

And more importantly, there won't be any 350s to split soon after the 397 introduction

Manchester Airport (that place again!) to Scotland doesn't need 8 carriages to itself. Manchester city centre to Preston is a commuter flow. Preston to Scotland is Liverpool and Manchester combined passengers. A better solution would be four carriages to each city, with Manchester being supplemented (as Liverpool is served) with a 4 carriage EMU commuter train running in addition.

Don't worry, there will only be the option of 1 or 2 5-car sets on the long distance trains in future, so no chance of matching capacity to demand anyway. I wonder why I don't expect there to be a fast commuter-shifting relief ahead of the Manchester to Scotland train in my lifetime? Any chance of one running Leeds to Huddersfield? It is desperately needed now - and I would bet probably long into the future. I doubt either will ever happen though.
What a wonderful flexible forward-looking customer-responsive railway we have (not!) It's a good job that only 10 class 350 units isn't set in stone forever. Anyone still care to defend the current privatisation/stock ownership structure?

 

[cirithungol]

Will the Liverpool to Glasgow service go through St Helens Central or Junction? Or has that not been announced yet?

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Will the Liverpool to Glasgow service go through St Helens Central or Junction? Or has that not been announced yet?

The map shown here http://maps.dft.gov.uk/transpennine-express/#liverpool clearly shows the intended route is via St Helens Central even if this isn't said specifically.

I would also echo the other comments regarding the potential market: it definitely exists. Plenty of Glaswegians can be found on trains via St Helens especially around/at weekends. To what extent genuine cultural links exist I couldn't say but there's no doubt that both have a very similar independent spirit vis-a-vis neighbouring cities that are deemed to be more "important". Certainly when I was growing up my awareness of the two fine cities was of them having similar histories, which have been rather dispiriting in recent decades, but any visit to either with open eyes will reveal a rather more upbeat situation today.

 

[cle]

Not sure that equates to demand for travel though. I’d say it’s more down to business connections and specific leisure travel, rather than some kind of emo underdog empathy...

 

[cuccir]

If you look at the top 30 busiest stations in the UK, they're found 9 cities (counting Gatwick as an outpost of London).

Of the 9 cities, Liverpool-Glasgow and Liverpool-Edinburgh are the closest unconnected citites, excluding the various combinations involving Brighton, which is a unique case geographically. While not a perfect analysis, it might sugggest a likely demand for direct services.

 

[tbtc]

I don't think that there's any need to overcomplicate Liverpool-Scotland services with portion working and other exotic ideas, but it would be handy to have them serving both Edinburgh and Glasgow alternately in the same way as the Manchester Airports do at the moment. Knowing how many people change at the moment, and how busy the Scottish TPEs are generally, my guess is that Glasgow and Edinburgh would see similar loadings from Liverpool. I'd happily build my travel plans around a relatively infrequent direct service, although anything less than a train every three hours wouldn't be enough.

I agree about some of the over-complicated "solutions" being suggested on here.

Instead of the various coupling/uncoupling ideas, one idea not suggested so far would be to reverse the Edinburgh - Carlisle (Manchester/ Birmingham) services at Carstairs, and stop all Glasgow - Carlisle (Manchester/ Birmingham) services there too.

It'd take an extra couple of minutes on the Edinburgh services, but (combined with stopping the Scortail/XC services from Glasgow Central to Waverley at Carstairs) it'd hopefully give connections at Carstairs for Glasgow/ Edinburgh - meaning that passenger numbers would even out more (i.e. no need for Edinburgh-bound passengers to wait for the next Edinburgh service at Preston - they could jump on any northbound (ex Manchester/ Birmingham) service.

(I'm not talking about the complicated joining/splitting at Carstairs that they used to have in the '80s, I'm not trying to run any additional services, I accept it'd be a massive over-provision for Carstairs passengers, but you could provide a lot more connections for Scottish passengers by offering regular opportunities to change there)

What a wonderful flexible forward-looking customer-responsive railway we have (not!) It's a good job that only 10 class 350 units isn't set in stone forever. Anyone still care to defend the current privatisation/stock ownership structure?

Manchester - Scotland?

I remember the irregular service in BR days, run by 158s (or even two coach HSTs!).

This became a clock face bi-hourly service at Operation Princess, with brand new four/five coach trains (running through from the Thames Valley and West Midlands).

This was replaced by a dedicated service from Manchester Airport to Scotland (i.e. not already full of Birmingham passengers), modern three coach 185s, slowly upgraded from bi-hourly to 3tp2h.

This was replaced by brand new trains (10x four coach 350/4s - able to run 110mph) running every hour.

These are being replaced by another fleet of brand new trains, a dozen five coach 125mph 397s (with the option for more units to be built), with the hourly Manchester service supplemented by some Liverpool - Glasgow services.

(this is at the same time as Euston - WCML - Glasgow was doubled in frequency to hourly, and Birmingham - WCML - Scotland doubled to hourly, so not as if the Manchester services are at the expense of something else)

Is the current privatisation/stock ownership structure absolutely perfect? No. But it seems fairly flexible forward-looking and customer-responsive for passengers between Manchester and Scotland - they've seen a lot of improvements since the BR days - they are almost ready for their third brand new fleet in under twenty years. Maybe in another five years there'll be another (bigger, better, faster) new fleet on the way?

The fact that some people are complaining that a five coach train every hour from Manchester (on top of the ex-Euston/ Birmingham/ Liverpool services to Scotland) might not be enough shows that improving the trains every few years increases the demand for those trains - it's a virtuous circle - it's something we should be celebrating.

 

[30907]

I agree about some of the over-complicated "solutions" being suggested on here.

Instead of the various coupling/uncoupling ideas, one idea not suggested so far would be to reverse the Edinburgh - Carlisle (Manchester/ Birmingham) services at Carstairs, and stop all Glasgow - Carlisle (Manchester/ Birmingham) services there too.

Why Carstairs, though, when all the trains already call at Preston and Carlisle (and nearly all Lancaster)

 

[Bevan Price]

Could they run as 8 car 350 units and split at Carstairs or Carlisle?

Either that, or up the Liverpool to hourly (Glasgow only) and have Manchester as Edinburgh only, with a timed transfer at Preston or Lancaster - and some neat infographics and branding about how the service works. And then send the Manchester to run first, and faster (rationale being that Manc has the Cumbria trains also).

Stopping patterns with the Birmingham and fast London services could be played with too, if the Liverpool was making more of the local stops following the Manc-Edinburgh.

Apart from lack of resources, any decision about even more Liverpool - Scotland services will almost certainly wait to see how passenger numbers develop, and possibly until the next franchise change (or post-Corbyn deprivatisation...)

 

[frodshamfella]

Quick question, why can't Liverpool passengers change at Warrington, Wigan or Preston for Scotland?

Liverpool is a large enough city and very popular as a city break destination to support direct Scottish services.

 

[tbtc]

Why Carstairs, though, when all the trains already call at Preston and Carlisle (and nearly all Lancaster)

The idea being that there's a train roughly every hour doing Central - Carstairs - Waverley (the ScotRail services from Ayr stop there, plus the XC services pass through on their way to the ECML), so if you could stop the XC services there then you'd create journey opportunities not currently available by changing at Preston/ Carlisle (given that the awkward splits on the WCML can see three Glasgow-bound services leaving Preston before the next Edinburgh departure - http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/sea...18/09/07/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt - since the Euston service is every hour, plus alternate Birmingham/Manchester services run to Glasgow - you can easily be waiting over an hour for the next Preston - Edinburgh service).

And then, if the Glasgow - Manchester service stops at Carstairs and the Manchester - Edinburgh service stops there too then you might end up with a convenient opportunity to do Motherwell - Edinburgh too.

(I'm not talking about stopping Euston services at Carstairs - the headline time is too important on a service that competes with planes - but I think we could smooth out demand and create more journey opportunities if the Manchester services - plus the Ayr services and the XC services - stopped at Carstairs)

Liverpool is a large enough city and very popular as a city break destination to support direct Scottish services.

Don't forget Blackpool - it's not as big as Liverpool but Glaswegians are attracted to it like moths/flames.

 

[frodshamfella]

The idea being that there's a train roughly every hour doing Central - Carstairs - Waverley (the ScotRail services from Ayr stop there, plus the XC services pass through on their way to the ECML), so if you could stop the XC services there then you'd create journey opportunities not currently available by changing at Preston/ Carlisle (given that the awkward splits on the WCML can see three Glasgow-bound services leaving Preston before the next Edinburgh departure - http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/sea...18/09/07/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt - since the Euston service is every hour, plus alternate Birmingham/Manchester services run to Glasgow - you can easily be waiting over an hour for the next Preston - Edinburgh service).

And then, if the Glasgow - Manchester service stops at Carstairs and the Manchester - Edinburgh service stops there too then you might end up with a convenient opportunity to do Motherwell - Edinburgh too.

(I'm not talking about stopping Euston services at Carstairs - the headline time is too important on a service that competes with planes - but I think we could smooth out demand and create more journey opportunities if the Manchester services - plus the Ayr services and the XC services - stopped at Carstairs)



Don't forget Blackpool - it's not as big as Liverpool but Glaswegians are attracted to it like moths/flames.

Yes very true they do.

 

[frodshamfella]

Could this be the start of Liverpool being properly reconnected again to a number of other cities lost over time ? When I'm told my mum she couldn't go directly to Llandudno from Liverpool and would have to change in Chester ( I know this will improve with Halton Curve.......eventually !), she couldn't believe it, neither can I really !
I'm sure direct Glasgow and Edinburgh rail links will be warmly received, just hurry it along and start !

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

Could this be the start of Liverpool being properly reconnected again to a number of other cities lost over time ? When I'm told my mum she couldn't go directly to Llandudno from Liverpool and would have to change in Chester ( I know this will improve with Halton Curve.......eventually !), she couldn't believe it, neither can I really !
I'm sure direct Glasgow and Edinburgh rail links will be warmly received, just hurry it along and start !

Yes definitely! Llandudno, Shrewsbury, Cardiff and Chester are next!

 

[185143]

Quick question, why can't Liverpool passengers change at Warrington, Wigan or Preston for Scotland?

They can.

But if Warrington, Wigan and Manchester can have direct services, why can't Merseyside?

 

[driver_m]

You only have to see the explosion in leisure travel to Liverpool from the South East and the West Midlands to know that Liverpool is now a huge destination for Tourism, Shopping, Football and it's going to continue to Grow. This service should prove to be hugely popular. I'd imagine the people of St Helens will be very happy to also have long distance connections fully restored again after losing them gradually from the late 80s. A lot of scottish family connections there too when a lot of people came South to work in the glass factories.

 

[Agent_Squash]

I personally see the Liverpool service as a test to see if the demand is there - eventually becoming part of a 2tph TPE NW offering.

 

[takno]

The idea being that there's a train roughly every hour doing Central - Carstairs - Waverley (the ScotRail services from Ayr stop there, plus the XC services pass through on their way to the ECML), so if you could stop the XC services there then you'd create journey opportunities not currently available by changing at Preston/ Carlisle (given that the awkward splits on the WCML can see three Glasgow-bound services leaving Preston before the next Edinburgh departure - http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/sea...18/09/07/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt - since the Euston service is every hour, plus alternate Birmingham/Manchester services run to Glasgow - you can easily be waiting over an hour for the next Preston - Edinburgh service).

And then, if the Glasgow - Manchester service stops at Carstairs and the Manchester - Edinburgh service stops there too then you might end up with a convenient opportunity to do Motherwell - Edinburgh too.

(I'm not talking about stopping Euston services at Carstairs - the headline time is too important on a service that competes with planes - but I think we could smooth out demand and create more journey opportunities if the Manchester services - plus the Ayr services and the XC services - stopped at Carstairs)



Don't forget Blackpool - it's not as big as Liverpool but Glaswegians are attracted to it like moths/flames.

The Edinburgh-Birmingham time is already slowed down too much by hanging around at Wolverhampton. Adding a Carstairs stop which requires a reversal and going round the even-worse curve would make it essentially untenable. At the end of the day there is a competing air service on that route as well. I'd appreciate more services up the line generally (until Haymarket, where they always seem to show up late and get in the way of the Glasgow-Edinburghs), but in terms of changing I'd rather wait an extra hour at New Street (or Wigan, Preston or Crewe) than spend 20 minutes at a nothing station like Carstairs waiting for an all-shacks that gets me to Edinburgh maybe 20 minutes ahead of the following direct train

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Do what the Germans do - hourly standard paths for everything with decent connections at anywhere like Wigan, Preston, Lancaster, Carlisle and Lockerbie.

Does demand exist for a Liverpool - Scotland train? Maybe, maybe not. But a high-quality ‘fast’ service from Liverpool to Preston via Wigan should resolve that. Otherwise, run the Liverpool ‘fast’ trains as 769s to Windermere and Barrow so people can connect at Lancaster or Wigan instead of Preston and have more Preston / Blackpool starters to Manchester over Bolton.

 

[Agent_Squash]

Do what the Germans do - hourly standard paths for everything with decent connections at anywhere like Wigan, Preston, Lancaster, Carlisle and Lockerbie.

Does demand exist for a Liverpool - Scotland train? Maybe, maybe not. But a high-quality ‘fast’ service from Liverpool to Preston via Wigan should resolve that. Otherwise, run the Liverpool ‘fast’ trains as 769s to Windermere and Barrow so people can connect at Lancaster or Wigan instead of Preston and have more Preston / Blackpool starters to Manchester over Bolton.

The population on the Furness and Lakes lines are far more linked to Manchester than Liverpool - I don’t think losing their 195s and Manchester services would go down well (unless it was separate, at which point you’d have to question whether the demand is there)

 

[Ianno87]

Problem with Carstairs stops is that the station itself generates virtually zero demand (and has no parking and a terrible road network in the area) it is essentially wasted time on the train's journey when passengers can change elsewhere.

Plus the station 'facilities' at Carstairs amount to little more than a bus shelter nowadays...

 

[Tremzinho]

As others have said, there are regularly large numbers of Liverpool passengers connecting at Wigan and Preston on to Scottish services. And it's not just about Glasgow, try getting to and from Cumbria and the Lake District from Liverpool, especially on Sundays when it can take several hours, with long connections at both Lancaster and Preston/Wigan. As a result many people drive instead.

Liverpool is a major business and leisure destination. It's got a major conference center that attracts major events, plus the port and football traffic, this all adds up to enough traffic to justify a lot more direct connections than there currently are.

There seems to have been an assumption in recent years that nobody in Liverpool wants to travel further north than Blackpool.

 

[edwin_m]

Instead of the various coupling/uncoupling ideas, one idea not suggested so far would be to reverse the Edinburgh - Carlisle (Manchester/ Birmingham) services at Carstairs, and stop all Glasgow - Carlisle (Manchester/ Birmingham) services there too.

It'd take an extra couple of minutes on the Edinburgh services, but (combined with stopping the Scortail/XC services from Glasgow Central to Waverley at Carstairs) it'd hopefully give connections at Carstairs for Glasgow/ Edinburgh - meaning that passenger numbers would even out more (i.e. no need for Edinburgh-bound passengers to wait for the next Edinburgh service at Preston - they could jump on any northbound (ex Manchester/ Birmingham) service.

I can't see that this proposal improves much on what is already possible. The Birmingham and Manchester services alternate between Glasgow and Edinburgh in such a way that Preston and Carlisle both have an Edinburgh train roughly every hour. So Liverpool already has hourly connections to Edinburgh and Manchester has a connection in the hours when there is no direct service.

 

[route:oxford]

What's the current position of the upgrade to the Carstairs junction?

I'm guessing 11 car Pendolinos decelerating, then crossing a junction at 15mph is not ideal for maximising route capacity.