Where is the Maltese cross/dagger?

[dvalts]

I have an Advance ticket purchased from GWR that was routed 'via Reading and London'. (Lympstone to Crossflatts). The itinerary mentions London Underground to transfer between Paddington and Kings Cross, but there is no dagger or cross shown anywhere I can see on the ticket - I assumed it was going to be valid on the tube for the transfer, but apparently this is not the case. Is this correct? Are the LU connections no longer included in the price?

 

[maniacmartin]

This is the ticket, and it clearly has a Maltese Cross in the fares database.

This looks like an issuing error to me. It would be interesting to know if the cross-London transfer has been encoded on the magnetic strip, but perhaps not something you want to have the hassle of when trying to sort out make your next train. I would contact the company who sold you the ticket online with the picture and see if they can resolve it for you in advance.

 

[najaB]

I have had new format tickets that included the dagger symbol. Your ticket appears to be this one so it should include the cross-London transfer.

 

[sheff1]

I also see that the ticket states "Valid on 07-Mch-17" but the itinerary and reservations show that the journey is being made on 8 March.

 

[Paul Kelly]

I have had new format tickets that included the dagger symbol.

Were they advance fares? Advances in the new format don't include the route description, so the obvious place to put the Maltese Cross (before the route description) simply isn't there. If the ticket in the OP is printed correctly, following the ATOC spec, that would seem to be quite an oversight.

 

[dvalts]

I also see that the ticket states "Valid on 07-Mch-17" but the itinerary and reservations show that the journey is being made on 8 March.

Yes, I just noticed that too

 

[sheff1]

If the ticket in the OP is printed correctly, following the ATOC spec, that would seem to be quite an oversight.

Or maybe all part of a plan to stop issuing cross-London tickets ! Another thread has confirmed that the new onboard ticket issuing machines will not issue such tickets.

 

[Joe Paxton]

How it is printed, without the cross, is stupid, and you should submit a complaint to whoever sold you the ticket along with an photo or scan of the ticket.

However I reckon it'll probably have the cross-London transfer encoded correctly on the magstripe, so will still work the Tube gates at each end of the Tube journey.

 

[Joe Paxton]

I also see that the ticket states "Valid on 07-Mch-17" but the itinerary and reservations show that the journey is being made on 8 March.

I think that's because the journey commences before 0430 on 8 March, so in railway ticketing terms it's still the previous day, i.e. 7 March

 

[sheff1]

I think that's because the journey commences before 0430 on 8 March, so in railway ticketing terms it's still the previous day, i.e. 7 March

Ridiculous if that is the case. The ticket is an Advance valid only on trains operating on 8 March and the first booked train does not reach its destination until 0523. If the OP encounters a problem because of no Maltese Cross, the the fact that the ticket is dated for the previous day is only going to make the problem bigger.

 

[Paul Kelly]

Also worth noting that the OP will easily make the connection to the 0856 from Leeds to Crossflatts and doesn't need to wait for the 0926.

 

[najaB]

Were they advance fares?

I'd need to check, but probably not.

 

[Hadders]

I suspect this is because the Underground will only accept tickets on the date shown (upto 0429 the following day). The date on the ticket is the 7th so the Underground will only accept the ticket until 0429 on the 8th.

Although the quote below is about Off Peak tickets from the National Rail website I suspect this is applied to Advance tickets as well.

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/46590.aspx

Note: Tickets will only be accepted by London Underground and DLR on the date shown on the ticket (or last day of validity for return portions of Off-Peak Returns) and until 04:29 the following day.

 

[Deerfold]

I suspect this is because the Underground will only accept tickets on the date shown (upto 0429 the following day). The date on the ticket is the 7th so the Underground will only accept the ticket until 0429 on the 8th.

Although the quote below is about Off Peak tickets from the National Rail website I suspect this is applied to Advance tickets as well.

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/46590.aspx

That makes even less sense. The tube will have given up for the night by the time the OP arrives, but it will start up in time to get them to Kings Cross on an early service.

 

[Joe Paxton]

Or is it dated the 7th because the journey from Lympstone Village could conceivably begin before midnight, i.e. still on the 7th? (Though yes there is a train from there at 0008 which gets to Exeter St D at 0037, in time for the booked 0106 to Paddington.)

Good point Hadders re the Tube only accepting the ticket on the date shown on it. I wonder if it might work anyway? (e.g. magstripe encoded for the 8th?)

 

[yorkie]

Or is it dated the 7th because the journey from Lympstone Village could conceivably begin before midnight, i.e. still on the 7th? (Though yes there is a train from there at 0008 which gets to Exeter St D at 0037, in time for the booked 0106 to Paddington.)

Good point Hadders re the Tube only accepting the ticket on the date shown on it. I wonder if it might work anyway? (e.g. magstripe encoded for the 8th?)

The ticket should work the barriers (but it might not do). If it doesn't, it should be accepted by LU staff (but it might not be).

In theory, London Underground barrier staff (Customer Support Assistants) will:

...assist in the safe supply of ... high quality customer service...

...[provide] a helpful and speedy response to all customer problems,
Enquiries and complaints, seeking senior staff assistance whenever
necessary...

...help customers, deal with ticketing problems...

[Have] Good communication skills so that both written and verbal information is
understood by customers and staff

... understand the importance of providing good customer service ...

[source]

I wish I could guarantee the above, but while most do act in accordance with their job description, I have had the misfortune to encounter some who most certainly do not.

 

[91103eastcoast]

The ticket should work the barriers (but it might not) and if it's not, it should be accepted by LU staff (but they might not act correctly).

Looking at the images it appears to be printed from a VTEC machine and I've had to persuade lots of tube staff that I have valid tickets when I have travelled cross London with tickets printed from VTEC machines using the new font.

Hopefully as they become more common the tube staff will be more accepting.

 

[Deerfold]

Yes, the journey commences on the 7th, hence that is the date shown.

The ticket should work the barriers (but it might not) and if it's not, it should be accepted by LU staff (but they might not act correctly).

Looks like it starts at 0008 on the 8th.

 

[yorkie]

Or is it dated the 7th because the journey from Lympstone Village could conceivably begin before midnight, i.e. still on the 7th? (Though yes there is a train from there at 0008 which gets to Exeter St D at 0037, in time for the booked 0106 to Paddington.)

This is possible; a ticket issued for 7th can be used to commence the journey up to 0429 on the following day. However if an itinerary is chosen starting after midnight, then the ticket should have been dated for the 8th.

I looked at this post suggesting a pre-midnight departure and looked at a journey planner which gave me an itinerary commencing on the 7th which arrived into Crossflatts 0946, however looking at the itinerary provided with the ticket, the journey in this case does appear to commence on the 8th. So it would suggest an issuing error for this ticket.

Regardless, it must be honoured by all relevant parties, as per UK consumer law (which LU are not exempt from).

Good point Hadders re the Tube only accepting the ticket on the date shown on it. I wonder if it might work anyway? (e.g. magstripe encoded for the 8th?)

It is likely the magstripe is encoded for cross-London transfer. Whether it is encoded to be valid on the 8th or not is something I'd be less confident of.

 

[causton]

It is likely the magstripe is encoded for cross-London transfer. Whether it is encoded to be valid on the 8th or not is something I'd be less confident of.

I don't think it would be. Covering up the 7th on the main ticket and pointing to the 8th on the reservations might be enough to get them to let you through though.

Unless the staff member knows enough to check properly for the Maltese cross...

It is ludicrous that these sort of mistakes still happen :roll:

 

[gray1404]

Lets hope so. Especially since the OP will clearly be using LU to travel between the 2 reserved sectors of their journey.

Is this, the + not being printed, a known issue or is this merely a one off glitch?

 

[Haywain]

Lets hope so. Especially since the OP will clearly be using LU to travel between the 2 reserved sectors of their journey.

Is this, the + not being printed, a known issue or is this merely a one off glitch?

It could be a known glitch!

 

[Ralph Ayres]

The ticket should work the barriers (but it might not do). If it doesn't, it should be accepted by LU staff (but it might not be).

The coding spec does require an extra day's validity to be added where reservations for the journey continue the next day, which should cover gate acceptance. Any hope of LU staff thinking the ticket was valid probably vanished when the Maltese cross or anything remotely resembling it was omitted. Waving a separate bit of paper with an itinerary vaguely mentioning London Underground but implying that it won't be running anyway is no guarantee.

 

[Joe Paxton]

The coding spec does require an extra day's validity to be added where reservations for the journey continue the next day, which should cover gate acceptance. Any hope of LU staff thinking the ticket was valid probably vanished when the Maltese cross or anything remotely resembling it was omitted. Waving a separate bit of paper with an itinerary vaguely mentioning London Underground but implying that it won't be running anyway is no guarantee.

I thought there might be something like that, glad to hear it's in the specifications and so should have been implemented with this particular ticket.

The contract between LU and RDG for tickets with cross-London Tube transfers surely includes the requirement that they are marked in the agreed way, i.e. use of the Maltese cross. Therefore if the Maltese cross is absent then that is the railway's failing (or more specifically the failing of the ticket issuer).

I'd urge the OP to make a complaint to whomever they bought the ticket from.

 

[Haywain]

I'd urge the OP to make a complaint to whomever they bought the ticket from.

Whilst i am not going to encourage complaints, the seller of the ticket is completely in the clear on this one. The fault is entirely with Virgin Trains East Coast and their new TVMs and I can assure the OP that they are aware of this problem, and are actively seeking to resolve it.

 

[maniacmartin]

Whilst i am not going to encourage complaints, the seller of the ticket is completely in the clear on this one. The fault is entirely with Virgin Trains East Coast and their new TVMs and I can assure the OP that they are aware of this problem, and are actively seeking to resolve it.

The OP's contract is with the ticket seller to deliver the ticket though, not with VTEC, even if VTEC's machines are the cause of the issue. Thus the OP has to contact the seller, who can in turn complain to VTEC.

 

[Mag_seven]

Given the OP's itinerary, I wouldn't fancy having to debate with a member of LUL Paddington gateline staff at 05.30 in the morning with the deadline for the 06.30 departure from Kings Cross rapidly approaching.

 

[yorkie]

Given the OP's itinerary, I wouldn't fancy having to debate with a member of LUL Paddington gateline staff at 05.30 in the morning with the deadline for the 06.30 departure from Kings Cross rapidly approaching.

I still think there is a realistic prospect the ticket will work the barriers, especially given Ralph Ayres's post above, which I had hoped would be the case.

If it is not accepted, LUL staff will be in the wrong if they do not accept the ticket. They have received the money for the transfer and to then refuse to allow a passenger access to a service for which they have received revenue for would be a serious matter. The customer has paid the appropriate fare, and any resulting issue is between the relevant rail industry companies/organisations and should not cause inconvenience to the customer.

However I agree that there can be no guarantees that all LUL staff will act in accordance with their job description, or adhere to consumer law, or give the customer access to the services for which their organisation has been correctly paid to provide.

 

[philthetube]

I still think there is a realistic prospect the ticket will work the barriers, especially given Ralph Ayres's post above, which I had hoped would be the case.

If it is not accepted, LUL staff will be in the wrong if they do not accept the ticket. They have received the money for the transfer and to then refuse to allow a passenger access to a service for which they have received revenue for would be a serious matter. The customer has paid the appropriate fare, and any resulting issue is between the relevant rail industry companies/organisations and should not cause inconvenience to the customer.

However I agree that there can be no guarantees that all LUL staff will act in accordance with their job description, or adhere to consumer law, or give the customer access to the services for which their organisation has been correctly paid to provide.

I would not expect LUL gate staff to have the depth of knowledge to know this, and would not expect them to have it. Training will say, if the ticket has a cross on it and is correctly dated it is valid, if not it isn't.

Nobody at Paddington would know at that time if LUL had received money or not.

Also I would not expect the Gate staff to know that a Lympstone to Crossflatts journey involved a cross London Journey.

 

[yorkie]

I would not expect LUL gate staff to have the depth of knowledge to know this, and would not expect them to have it. Training will say, if the ticket has a cross on it and is correctly dated it is valid, if not it isn't.

Nobody at Paddington would know at that time if LUL had received money or not.

Also I would not expect the Gate staff to know that a Lympstone to Crossflatts journey involved a cross London Journey.

If they can't understand the following text on the ticket, then they are not fit to do the job.

Exeter St Davids -> London Paddington
08 Mch 17 01:06 Coach A Seat 27

London Kings Cross -> Leeds
08 Mch 17 06:30 Coach B Seat 33

Their training tells them to offer high quality customer service and a helpful and speedy response to all customer problems and deal with ticketing problems and have Good communication skills.

Given what is printed on the ticket, compliance with their job description will certainly see the ticket be accepted.