Where should HS3 go and why?

[59CosG95]

With HS1 operating to the SE of London and the continent, HS2 operating to the North of the country (Brum, Liverpool, Leeds, Manchester, Sheffield, Newcastle and potentially Glasgow and Auld Reekie, where should HS3 go, if it were to go ahead?

 

[DarloRich]

shall we try and get HS2 built first?

 

[philjo]

There should be a general plan on how the High Speed Network will develop over time so that potential interchanges or connections where HS lines meet can be allowed for in the HS2 design/build to save having to rebuild later at much greater expense.

I personally think that considering the growth areas of Cambridge and Harlow etc an eastern line is needed to extend northwards from Stratford to Stansted Airport where one branch will go east to join the GEML somewhere south of Colchester. The main section would continue past Cambridge to join ECML north of Peterborough but with connections into both Cambridge & Peterborough (using a connection where it crosses the Ely/PBO line). It wouldn't extend any further north than that initially but Linconshire is nice and flat for future extension later.
That would take most London to Stansted and Cambridge/Kings Lynn traffic away from ECML/Welwyn and allow outer suburban Hertfordshire/Bedfordshire stations to have a better service (mostly into Thameslink from ECML)
Harlow/Bishops Stortford etc would also get a better service without the London-airport traffic.

Otherwise WAML will need four tracking and Welwyn still needs sorting so I think HS line would be cheaper and less disruptive.

It should integrate properly into HS1/HS2 so a Stansted/Colchester portion say could couple at Stratford International with a portion from Kent/HS1 and then run as a single train to Birmingham or Manchester via HS2.


An alternative option is a new HS line from Gatwick towards London (bypassing East Croydon) - underground station at London Bridge and then tunnel to connect with HS2 under at undergounrd platforms at Euston to allow through running. Would give Gatwick/Brighton line more capacity.

I think we need to think of more cross City services (not just for London but also for Manchester/Birmingham) etc to allow the existing lines to take more local services

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Heathrow to Bristol Parkway - with a link / junction from South Reading to the Micheldever area to link into the SW routes , giving (a) South Wales to the M4 corridor and fast links from Soton and Pompey to Heathrow and Crossrail (clearing capacity into Waterloo Main)

 

[route:oxford]

With HS1 operating to the SE of London and the continent, HS2 operating to the North of the country (Brum, Liverpool, Leeds, Manchester, Sheffield, Newcastle and potentially Glasgow and Auld Reekie, where should HS3 go, if it were to go ahead?

It'll be HS1 in Scotland...

 

[59CosG95]

shall we try and get HS2 built first?

Yes, but HS2 was probably in planning way before HS1 came to fruition. The same is probably happening now with HS3.

 

[Yew]

I wouldnt have it quite as fast as HS1/2 but I would have it as 150mph of so to bristol from london. with a spur from paddlingtin to connect to HS2 for some sort of XC route.

 

[Bald Rick]

Brighton - London. Via Gatwick.

 

[Squaddie]

With HS1 operating to the SE of London and the continent, HS2 operating to the North of the country (Brum, Liverpool, Leeds, Manchester, Sheffield, Newcastle and potentially Glasgow and Auld Reekie, where should HS3 go, if it were to go ahead?

Obviously, Holyhead to Cardiff, with a tunnel beneath Snowdonia...

 

[Bald Rick]

Yes, but HS2 was probably in planning way before HS1 came to fruition. The same is probably happening now with HS3.

It wasn't and isn't.

 

[tbtc]

shall we try and get HS2 built first?

One of the criticisms of HS2 is that "its only a line and not a network", so to appease those members of the Great British Public, should we build HS3 before HS2?

(one of my criticisms of HS2 is that its trying to solve too much - and that the eastern "arm" will make it a lot harder to justify a proper High Speed line up the eastern side of the UK - I think it'll be hard to find enough of a niche for any further High Speed lines in the UK - e.g. not enough population live west of Reading for a whole separate line there)

 

[Temple Meads]

Quite simply it shouldn't go anywhere, and the money should be invested in the current railway system, like what should have happened with HS2

 

[RichmondCommu]

One of the criticisms of HS2 is that "its only a line and not a network", so to appease those members of the Great British Public, should we build HS3 before HS2?

What we need to do is to make more of an effort to intergrate HS2 into the rest of the rail network in the West Midlands. It's such a pity that we can't afford to run HS2 into New Street.

 

[tbtc]

Quite simply it shouldn't go anywhere, and the money should be invested in the current railway system, like what should have happened with HS2

I assume that the rolling eyes "smiley" is because the thousand miles of electrification between now and the end of the decade isn't enough?

The investment in new trains like IEP not spending enough money?

There's a lack of investment at places like Reading Station?

Thameslink? Crossrail?

Or do you honestly believe that HS2 has starved the current system of money?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

What we need to do is to make more of an effort to intergrate HS2 into the rest of the rail network in the West Midlands. It's such a pity that we can't afford to run HS2 into New Street.

I don't think we've enough space - the station is enough of a bottleneck - HS2 is expensive enough already without knocking it into New Street.

Would be great if it could, don't get me wrong, but hard to justify - esp when Curzon Street is so close.

 

[anthony263]

London to Bristol connecting to the GW mainline could continue into South Wales over the Severn Barrage or a new Severn Tunnel.

London - Bristol Journey times can then be reduced to 60 minutes from 85 minutes as they are supposed to be when electrification is completed and Cardiff to 65 minutes. Some services will continue beyond Bristol to Plymouth and Penzance brining London - Plymouth to under 3 hours

 

[RichmondCommu]

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


I don't think we've enough space - the station is enough of a bottleneck - HS2 is expensive enough already without knocking it into New Street.

Would be great if it could, don't get me wrong, but hard to justify - esp when Curzon Street is so close.

The only way we could do it would be by tunneling under New Street and building low level platforms but this would of course cost a billion plus!

I concur that Curzon Street is realistically our only option but it's not ideal for those with baggage or if it's p*ssing it down!

 

[Temple Meads]

Or do you honestly believe that HS2 has starved the current system of money?

I'm not actually saying that, I'm saying that the money would be better spent on improving the railway network nationwide, like new rolling stock here in the South West, or for the Northern local routes.

 

[ainsworth74]

The discussion about HS2 and it's value for money (or otherwise) in comparison to other projects is taking place on the main HS2 thread. This thread is for discussing a hypothetical HS3 and I would ask that you keep this in mind.

 

[tec]

shall we try and get HS2 built first?

No.

 

[anthony263]

My proposal for HS3 running to the Bristol area or further south will help boost the economies of the devon & Cornwall as journey times to London and other cities are reduced.

One problem already mentioned is the services from London to Plymouth are overcrowded especially during the summer. HS3 would allow more faster services from Penzance & Plymouth to London as well as freeing up capacity elsewhere.

Plymouth has long been campaigning for services to London which do the journey in 3 hours or less HS3 will allow this and it will also free up capacity in particular along the berk & hants route for additional local and freight services once the non or limited stop expresses are diverted onto HS3.

That will allow us to have a 30 minutely stopping service between Reading & Newbury with 1 per hour extendeding to Westbury along with an hourly semi-fast London - Taunton service calling at principal stations such as Newbury, Bedwyn, Westbury & Catsle Cary etc. There will also be more capacity along the berk & hants for additional freight traffic especially if the whole route is wired and some traffice from Southampton can be diverted that way rather than via Bassingstoke.

 

[telstarbox]

It has to be the South West, or at least Bristol.

 

[WatcherZero]

Part of me wants a new high speed transpennine route only calling at the major cities (naturally it would be slower than HS2 but theres a lot of room for speed improvements here), the rational part of me however realises that would probably make a lot of the remaining small stations and branch lines uneconomical.

So Instead I propose the modest upgrading of the Great Western.

 

[JamesRowden]

I wouldnt have it quite as fast as HS1/2 but I would have it as 150mph of so to bristol from london. with a spur from paddlingtin to connect to HS2 for some sort of XC route.

Network Rail are considering upgrading the GWML to 140mph. Also, if the HS2 Heathrow branch is built, services from Weymouth could run to Heathrow via Reading to provide connections for cross country journies via HS2 (alternatively Old Oak Common could do a similar job).

 

[tbtc]

One of the justifications for HS2 is that it'll free up capacity for local services (on lines currently dominated by non-stop high speed services).

But there are very few local services west of Reading (until you get to Newport/ Bath), it becomes a lot harder to justify separate infrastructure for fast services. Better to focus on upgrading the existing lines west of Reading.

I'd stick to something like Central London - Stratford - Stansted - Cambridge - Peterborough - Nottingham - Meadowhall - Wakefield - Leeds - Bradford (at the expense of an eastern arm of HS2) - since that could free up space for more local services at places that currently see a lot of fast services running non-stop through (like Stevenage)

 

[The Ham]

One of the justifications for HS2 is that it'll free up capacity for local services (on lines currently dominated by non-stop high speed services).

But there are very few local services west of Reading (until you get to Newport/ Bath), it becomes a lot harder to justify separate infrastructure for fast services. Better to focus on upgrading the existing lines west of Reading.

Although by building through Reading and beyond it would allow a better service to places like Swindon and Pangbourne, both of which could provide more passengers if the trains which called there weren't full and/or had a more frequent service.

If there was a high speed line which removed the express services then it is likely that there could be demand for more stations along the line and for the existing stations a more frequent service. Therefore creating a market which hasn't previously existed because there wasn't the need to cater for it.

New stations which could be built could include Grove (Wantage), possibly a second staion for Swindon, Wooton Bassett and Chipping Sodbury.

 

[anthony263]

Although by building through Reading and beyond it would allow a better service to places like Swindon and Pangbourne, both of which could provide more passengers if the trains which called there weren't full and/or had a more frequent service.

If there was a high speed line which removed the express services then it is likely that there could be demand for more stations along the line and for the existing stations a more frequent service. Therefore creating a market which hasn't previously existed because there wasn't the need to cater for it.

New stations which could be built could include Grove (Wantage), possibly a second staion for Swindon, Wooton Bassett and Chipping Sodbury.

That is actually one reason why I suggested HS3 run to Bristol as it free up capacity on the GW mainline for improved local passenger services as well as freight traffic.

New stations at Corsham, Royal Wotton Bassett and Wantage Road are certainly justified. By diverting some of the GW express onto HS3 we free up capacity on the GW mainline which could be used to speed up some remaining high speed services which will remain on the GW mainlin such as the Cheltenham to London. Ideally Swindon needs to be under 45 minutes from London. This could be done by running the Cheltenham - London service nons top between Swindon & London with some new Swindon - London shuttles which would serve Didcot & Reading.

The London - Plymouth/Penzance services running via HS3 could bring Plymouth to London down to around 2 hours 45 minutes and take pressure off teh Berk & hants route. We could then have a much impoved local and semi-fast service via the berk and hants line.

Perhaps with extra cpacity available on the GW by HS3 we could see direct crosscountry services linking Bristol to Notttingham via Swindon, Oxford, Bicester Town & Bedford allowing passengers a direct service avoiding Birmingham New Street. Also it would atke some pressure off the Crosscountry services which run via Birmingham New Street

 

[Leo1961]

Shouldn't we stop pretending that speed is the issue and concentrate on capacity?

So should we be discussing HC1?

And my twopence worth would be for a network improvement, first of all a South-West to North-East line that starts at Penzance and ends at Inverness. Four line all the way to allow for through trains to run past stopping trains without compromising capacity in any way. And at the same time a new link from the Channel Tunnel through to Glasgow with the majority of it following the line of the old Great Central, using the international gauge to allow for freight and passenger services to replace the
huge amount of road freight we are currently witnessing.

Why aim so low as to choose a single route , go for a huge project that may take twenty years to come to fruition, but when complete will be something that is useful and fit for another 100 years.

As someone famous once said, "If we build it they will come"

 

[Mojo]

I concur that Curzon Street is realistically our only option but it's not ideal for those with baggage or if it's p*ssing it down!

It depends on where they are going; for much of Birmingham city centre, the so-called Curzon Street HS2 terminus is no less convenient than New St.

 

[CalderRail]

I suspect that after HS2 the next stage will be expansions and branches off it.

However, Bristol-South Wales-Wexford-Dublin would be interesting though. Make those tunnels Betuweroute double-stack loading gauge while we're down there.

 

[RichmondCommu]

It depends on where they are going; for much of Birmingham city centre, the so-called Curzon Street HS2 terminus is no less convenient than New St.

Thats true but we also need to think about journeys that originate in the West Midlands.