Which is each TOC's "poor relation" route?

[Prodigy]

I really think TPE could lay on more services to Edinburgh but most will probably disagree.

 

[northwichcat]

I really think TPE could lay on more services to Edinburgh but most will probably disagree.

TPE didn't even have enough stock to run an Edinburgh service in the first place. Really Virgin should have kept that service and if a VHF timetable was required then more stock should have been ordered instead of making overcrowding on TPE routes worse than it already was.

 

[Prodigy]

TPE didn't even have enough stock to run an Edinburgh service in the first place. Really Virgin should have kept that service and if a VHF timetable was required then more stock should have been ordered instead of making overcrowding on TPE routes worse than it already was.

Ah fair enough. It's a shame though really, I'd of thought there'd be more frequent services to one of the big cities.

 

[lemonic]

Anyway, I would suggest that the poor relation with GE is basically everything around Colchester! None of Sudbury, Walton, Harwich and Clacton get what they should do. I would suggest electrifying Sudbury (eliminating the island in the area) and running through trains to Walton, using the fast stopping pattern, giving Harwich a through service to Londion (again), and giving Clacton a second service every hour (using the slow stopping pattern). Thus, Sudbury has a link to Colchester, walton has a faster link to Colchester, Harwich has a through service to London and Clacton has 2tph.

The Great Eastern Mainline is currently very busy south of Colchester, especially with many trains of differing stopping patterns, so it may not be technically possible to introduce extra trains for Harwich and Clacton. Before, Harwich had an hourly direct service but there were lots of intermediate stops. Now, Harwich still has an hourly service as far as Manningtree but there it connects to a fast intercity service with a net decrease in journey time, so as long as you don't mind changing, this is a good thing! Also, does Clacton really need 2tph?

 

[Kneedown]

On EMT anything that doesn't involve London St Pancras.
I hasten to add that a lot of the blame rests with the government and the general unwillingness to invest in anything north of Watford, South of Manchester and East of Birmingham.

 

[Ivo]

The Great Eastern Mainline is currently very busy south of Colchester, especially with many trains of differing stopping patterns, so it may not be technically possible to introduce extra trains for Harwich and Clacton. Before, Harwich had an hourly direct service but there were lots of intermediate stops. Now, Harwich still has an hourly service as far as Manningtree but there it connects to a fast intercity service with a net decrease in journey time, so as long as you don't mind changing, this is a good thing! Also, does Clacton really need 2tph?

This is all true, but all NXEA did with their "super" new timetable was pretty much revert to the FGE methods!

As for Clacton, for a town of its size its loadings are quite disappointing. I honestly believe that a second service could be justified, but I agree that changes would need to be made. If they could four-track through to Colchester (could be interesting in Chelmsford!), then my ideas could happen, as could the second hourly service to Braintree that is becoming increasingly necessary. The only problem then is that people [myself included] would suggest that Southend should get a fourth every hour, giving an improved service to the rapidly growing airport and ten in all between the two routes, which may then require six-tracking from Shenfield... the list goes on. Sigh.

Why can't they just simplify things? Change the Braintree train to a fast and have the Colchester Town train run right behind it, stopping at all the smaller locations, e.g. Kelvedon, and include stops on the Harwich train where demand justifies it. The make the next fast GE departure out of LST a Southend train, to give room. And so on.

Too much work and not enough 360s I assume? (Sod the 321s.)

------------------------

Another poor relation? Might I suggest the Marshlink for SN?

 

[tbtc]

TPE didn't even have enough stock to run an Edinburgh service in the first place. Really Virgin should have kept that service and if a VHF timetable was required then more stock should have been ordered instead of making overcrowding on TPE routes worse than it already was.

Yup - Virgin moved the Voyagers from this route to the Cheshire - London one (leaving TPE to cover the gaps with their existing stock)

 

[mappman1000]

In terms of NXEA, i think their weakest link has to be Romford to Upminster. Yes, it has two trains per hour, but the last service leaves Upminster at 1954 on weekdays. But then again, it isn't used alot in off peak, and the 317's are a bit of an overkill, especially when its a /7.

People have been complaining about the West Anglia Services earlier in this thread, but I think they get a very good service. Two trains per hour and all the other FCC ones from Cambridge is enough, and also effectively 3tph between Cambridge and Audley End. Stansted gets a brilliant service these days, with 5 trains per hour going to London (4 to Liverpool st and 1 to stratford).

Although much of it is 315's, the Lea Valley lines are well served (4tph chingford, 2tph hertford east, cheshunt via seven sisters and also enfield town), this gives seven sisters 4tph, and hackney downs 10tph into liverpool street. I never get why people complain why Hackney is poorly served ...
Even better is that the 379's have meant that many 317's now operate on the Lea Valley's, and the majority of Cambridges can be made 8-car.

Peterborough - Ipswich has always seemed very lacking, could NX not even operate an hourly service, with one train only going as far as Ely, to connect with the EMT and XC services that give the Ely - Peterborough a decent service.

In DMU land for NX, they'd need to order more units, especially seeing as they are planning on completing a loop at Beccles by the end of 2012.

 

[IanXC]

I think TPEs has to be Scarborough. Sole TOC operating Westwards and 1tph. I can't think there can be many places the size of Scarborough with 1tph and 1tp2h as their total service.

 

[Eagle]

I think TPEs has to be Scarborough. Sole TOC operating Westwards and 1tph. I can't think there can be many places the size of Scarborough with 1tph and 1tp2h as their total service.

Inverness, perhaps?

 

[mappman1000]

Inverness, perhaps?

Felixstowe aswell

 

[Ivo]

Can I revert to my last offering and suggest Braintree and Clacton?

 

[ainsworth74]

I think TPEs has to be Scarborough. Sole TOC operating Westwards and 1tph. I can't think there can be many places the size of Scarborough with 1tph and 1tp2h as their total service.

Also the first area to get cut when the driver's strikes were on leaving people in Malton with no rail service and those from Scarborough and Seemer having to travel via Hull to get to York!

 

[tbtc]

Also the first area to get cut when the driver's strikes were on leaving people in Malton with no rail service and those from Scarborough and Seemer having to travel via Hull to get to York!

I think that "first one to get scrapped in a strike" is a good definition of where a route is in the TOC's priorities.

If your service is usually the one to be scrapped when there's a driver shortage/ poor weather/ strike/ unit failures then you know you aren't a "flagship"

 

[YorkshireBear]

I think that "first one to get scrapped in a strike" is a good definition of where a route is in the TOC's priorities.

If your service is usually the one to be scrapped when there's a driver shortage/ poor weather/ strike/ unit failures then you know you aren't a "flagship"

Yes very much so, there was also some very wierd goings on about the penistone line last snowfall.

I personally think that line (york scarbrough) deserves 2tph not sure how but there you go.

does anyone think picking northerns is difficult? so many can come under catagories mentioned in previous posts.

 

[FenMan]

Whenever bad weather hits, SWT ditch the Ascot-Aldershot trains.

Amazingly, many residents of Camberley do their commuting from Farnborough Main, Woking or Sunningdale instead of their local station. I wonder why that is?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

ATW.....Heart of Wales line.

EMT.....Crewe to Derby

Northern.....Mid-Cheshire Line

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Whenever bad weather hits, SWT ditch the Ascot-Aldershot trains.

Amazingly, many residents of Camberley do their commuting from Farnborough Main, Woking or Sunningdale instead of their local station. I wonder why that is?

Direct trains to where they need to go (i.e. Clapham Junction, London Waterloo, Basingstoke etc)?

 

[IanXC]

Felixstowe aswell

Felixstowe is somewhat smaller (pop 29,000 vs 50,000)

By my working Inverness gets, by ultimate (Scottish) destination, the following services per day:

Aberdeen: 11
Elgin: 1
Edinburgh: 6
Glasgow Queen Street: 3
Wick: 4
Kyle: 4
Tain: 2
Invergordon: 1
Dingwall: 1
Ardgay: 1

34 per day

Scarborough gets 9 to Hull and 17 to York, 26 per day.

 

[Ivo]

Direct trains to where they need to go (i.e. Clapham Junction, London Waterloo, Basingstoke etc)?

Camberley does have a couple of direct trains to London during the peaks though! I realise they aren't the best, but they aren't exactly slow (no stopping at North Sheen for instance). For this reason, I can't see why so many use Farnborough instead; it's busy enough! Maybe these folks prefer 444s to 458s (can't say I blame them)...?

However, I agree that the line is often ditched during snow and the like; I remember being at Winnersh in the snow at the start of last year and someone used the Help Point to ask for Camberley information... he didn't take the response very well.

Is it worth mentioning that even though the line is in SWT's cycle restriction area (peaks only), cycles are valid between Ascot and Guildford at any time?

 

[tbtc]

does anyone think picking northerns is difficult? so many can come under catagories mentioned in previous posts.

It is hard to pick!

I'd be interested to see which is the "most cancelled" service that they (are supposed to) run.

 

[tbtc]

Having thought about this, may I recommend Lincoln - Sheffield as a "poor relation" of Northern routes?

I knows its cliched to submit a local route but...

- A service between two cities, 45 miles apart
- Some reasonable populations en route - Worksop. Retford/ Gainsborough
- Takes almost an hour and a half
- Vast majority of trains on this are (single) 142s or (single coach) 153s
- No "faster" alternative (unlike some other routes, which have faster "end to end" services, so its an hour and a half on a Pacer/153 or nothing...)
- Just an hourly service at suburban Sheffield stations (Darnall/ Woodhouse), pretty poor compared to inner-city services in other conurbations
- This route could be Sheffield's fastest way to London (via the chord at Retford), yet only gets all-stops services
- Scope for connection to Supertram at Nunnery Square P&R, but no station
- No through services to Mansfield (etc)

With a bit of TLC, this route could have a number of improvements- its out on a "limb" for Northern though, so easy for them to ignore.

 

[Lampshade]

Having thought about this, may I recommend Lincoln - Sheffield as a "poor relation" of Northern routes?

It could be sped up by axing stations like Kiveton Bridge/Park, as let's be honest, they serve nowhere important. Run them fast to Worksop and stopping from there to Lincoln. Then introduce a two-hourly stopper to terminate at Retford calling at the minor stations.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Having thought about this, may I recommend Lincoln - Sheffield as a "poor relation" of Northern routes?

I knows its cliched to submit a local route but...

- A service between two cities, 45 miles apart
- Some reasonable populations en route - Worksop. Retford/ Gainsborough
- Takes almost an hour and a half
- Vast majority of trains on this are (single) 142s or (single coach) 153s
- No "faster" alternative (unlike some other routes, which have faster "end to end" services, so its an hour and a half on a Pacer/153 or nothing...)
- Just an hourly service at suburban Sheffield stations (Darnall/ Woodhouse), pretty poor compared to inner-city services in other conurbations
- This route could be Sheffield's fastest way to London (via the chord at Retford), yet only gets all-stops services
- Scope for connection to Supertram at Nunnery Square P&R, but no station
- No through services to Mansfield (etc)

With a bit of TLC, this route could have a number of improvements- its out on a "limb" for Northern though, so easy for them to ignore.

I hadn't thought of that one i think i have to agree...

Ive always thought an extra stopper to worksop/retford and a semi fast to lincoln could probably be held on the line (i think there should be capcity?) Like you say relatively inner city stations barely served by train at all. Although 150s do appear on the line now and again

Nunnery square is interesting. If it was me i would form quite a large station there but i don't think it is a discussion for this thread.

 

[tbtc]

It could be sped up by axing stations like Kiveton Bridge/Park, as let's be honest, they serve nowhere important. Run them fast to Worksop and stopping from there to Lincoln. Then introduce a two-hourly stopper to terminate at Retford calling at the minor stations.

Ive always thought an extra stopper to worksop/retford and a semi fast to lincoln could probably be held on the line (i think there should be capcity?) Like you say relatively inner city stations barely served by train at all. Although 150s do appear on the line now and again

I think there's definitely scope for running the Lincoln services non-stop from Sheffield to Worksop (with something more suitable like a 156) with stations like Kiveton Park served by Sheffield - Worksop - Mansfield - Nottingham services (an extension of the current EMT service), but thats going across both TOC boundaries and political ones, so probably won't happen any time soon.

 

[YorkshireBear]

I think there's definitely scope for running the Lincoln services non-stop from Sheffield to Worksop (with something more suitable like a 156) with stations like Kiveton Park served by Sheffield - Worksop - Mansfield - Nottingham services (an extension of the current EMT service), but thats going across both TOC boundaries and political ones, so probably won't happen any time soon.

A line with potential that has been forgotten..... Wait till i am in charge and it'll be one of the fastest growing

one of the routes i hope gets the go ahead for alliance would be to take trains down this route, although im not sure if they haven't changed the plan.

 

[button_boxer]

- Just an hourly service at suburban Sheffield stations (Darnall/ Woodhouse), pretty poor compared to inner-city services in other conurbations

Mitigated somewhat by the fact that Darnall and Woodhouse are on one of the most intensive bus routes in the whole city (with, as of this coming weekend, inter-available daily and weekly tickets covering both the major operators).

 

[317666]

They'rell be no short tripping of the replacment unit, as that might (shock/horror) but 2 minutes on a Stansted train.

Yeah I have to say I hate how it's always the Stansted Express that gets priority. Always 8 coaches and empty, yet the Cambridge services are nearly always 4 coaches on a Saturday and are often packed south of Bishops Stortford.

 

[bicbasher]

Southeastern: Grove Park to Bromley North branch in addition to the Sherness branch.

Southern: Inner SLL and the London Bridge to Beckenham Junction service.

London Overground: A toss of the coin between the GOBLIN and Euston to Watford Junction service, although the line south of Harrow & Wealdstone is supplemented by 6tph on the Bakerloo line.

 

[HH]

I was (honestly) thinking Hertford but I didn't want to risk saying so, only for someone to jump out and berate me on the importance of Herford connections!

I disagree (and I work there). It has to be the Wimbledon Loop followed by the stretch Cambridge-Kings Lynn.