Who do I have to show my ticket to?

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Tibbs

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It wasn't the way it was meant to read however I admit I could have worded the post better. Putting words into your mouth was not my intention, apologies if it comes across otherwise.

However the point still stands, regardless of what train ticket you hold, you are entitled to seek assistance from any member of railway staff. If you choose to overcomplicate things by searching for particular uniforms when you need info then that it is your choice and you are perfectly entitled to continue to do so.

Similarly any member of railway staff is entitled to ask to inspect your ticket while on railway premises should they have reason/authority to do so.
Thank you for your apology, it is a curse of fora (and written communication in general) that you have to be so careful to write in a way that it actually says what you want it to say with no room for interpretation.

Given the power that the TOCs, and indeed the individual staff have in the railway situation is immense, I prefer to err on the side of paranoid caution.

Given that the TOCs are responsible for enforcing the law and deciding who is to be prosecuted,then implements the prosecution and directly benefits from said prosecution, it means they lack the checks & balances that for example the Police have where the CPS makes the decision over what files go to prosecution.

The only similar thing I can think about is POCA (Proceeds of Crime Act) where the Police benefit directly from the prosecution. This law was intended to be used against drug kingpins and other very serious offenders, but it is beginning to be subverted. There was a high profile example near me where a brothel operating was the subject of a violent armed robbery. The robbers, though known to the owner of the brothel were never apprehended, and because she called the Police she was then prosecuted under POCA, despite the fact that she had operated without complaint (and the Police had even visited before) for many years. Even the judge said how unfair it was but was powerless to intervene.
 
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AlexS

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Any TOC member of staff based at a station should be well briefed on all services operating through the station, regardless of TOC. My TOC effectively provides front line customer service for Cross Country on the station as XC don't have station staff (except I believe some customer service staff at New Street, although I believe a lot if not all have TUPE'd over to Network Rail) and therefore I keep myself fully aware of how their services are operating, customer services/lost property contact numbers, differing peak/off peak travel restrictions and so on and so forth. Thus the same applies for revenue protection.
 

Tibbs

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Any TOC member of staff based at a station should be well briefed on all services operating through the station, regardless of TOC. My TOC effectively provides front line customer service for Cross Country on the station as XC don't have station staff (except I believe some customer service staff at New Street, although I believe a lot if not all have TUPE'd over to Network Rail) and therefore I keep myself fully aware of how their services are operating, customer services/lost property contact numbers, differing peak/off peak travel restrictions and so on and so forth. Thus the same applies for revenue protection.
When railway byelaws operate on strict liability 'should' isn't good enough.

Whilst this topic has (very interestingly) wandered off thread, I was asking specifically about Euston, where VT & LM personnel are present.

Reading threads on here from RPIs underlines how likely it is they'd believe you if you said 'the man on the platform said it was ok'. I would imagine (in the absence of a comment from an RPI) that you'd get even shorter shrift from an LM RPI if you got your info from a VT employee should an LM employee have been available at your starting station.
 
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AndyLandy

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When railway byelaws operate on strict liability 'should' isn't good enough.

Whilst this topic has (very interestingly) wandered off thread, I was asking specifically about Euston, where VT & LM personnel are present.

Reading threads on here from RPIs underlines how likely it is they'd believe you if you said 'the man on the platform said it was ok'. I would imagine (in the absence of a comment from an RPI) that you'd get even shorter shrift from an LM RPI if you got your info from a VT employee should an LM employee have been available at your starting station.
That's actually a good point, "should" isn't really good enough in this situation. Myself, if I'm in any doubt about my ticket's validity on a specific train, I'd seek out the guard for the specific train and ask "Can I ride your train with this ticket?" Fundamentally, since they'll be the ones checking on-board, the answer they give you is the only one that matters.
 

Harlesden

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I was rather astonished to see this thread and the original post.
Surely it is common sense to understand that any uniformed member of rail staff who is clearly checking tickets is entitled to check the ticket of any civilian attempting to pass him/her.
Following the OP's logic, Barnetby would have a ticket checker from Northern, one from TPE and one from EMT at the barrier
 

island

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Similarly any member of railway staff is entitled to ask to inspect your ticket while on railway premises should they have reason/authority to do so.
I assume that reason/authority is considered to include that you are either present in a CTA or are joining/leaving a train at that station?
 

Tibbs

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I was rather astonished to see this thread and the original post.
Surely it is common sense to understand that any uniformed member of rail staff who is clearly checking tickets is entitled to check the ticket of any civilian attempting to pass him/her.
Following the OP's logic, Barnetby would have a ticket checker from Northern, one from TPE and one from EMT at the barrier
Why is it common sense that representatives from one company can see details of a commercial contract I have with an entirely separate company? Pretty much anywhere other than the railways I would have every right to refuse.

Euston has representatives from VT, TfL & LM. I travel between there and Watford, which has representatives from both TfL and LM at the gate. Datchet has representatives of SWT. All the stations I use have reps of all TOCs that call there.

Based on this experience, why wouldn't I expect all other stations to be the same?

Just because you know everything you know, why do you assume everyone else has the same level of knowledge?
 

Greenback

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Why is it common sense that representatives from one company can see details of a commercial contract I have with an entirely separate company? Pretty much anywhere other than the railways I would have every right to refuse.

Euston has representatives from VT, TfL & LM. I travel between there and Watford, which has representatives from both TfL and LM at the gate. Datchet has representatives of SWT. All the stations I use have reps of all TOCs that call there.

Based on this experience, why wouldn't I expect all other stations to be the same?

Just because you know everything you know, why do you assume everyone else has the same level of knowledge?
Well, you have the required level of knowledge to be able to differentiate between the uniforms of the different TOC's which is a lot mor ethan many passengers, especially those who continue to refer to British Rail, can manage! To most people, anyone in a uniform (and some without!) on a station is 'railway'!

But more seriously, it isn't only the railway where you may deal with someone othe rthan the supplier of a service. It is not representatives of my gas and electricty company that come and want to read my meter, but a totally separate company who are contraceted to do this. Similarly, when I had a problem with my water supply, two people from the local council arrived.

It simply isn't feasible to have staff frome very possible TOC on every station.
 

Mr Spock

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Why is it common sense that representatives from one company can see details of a commercial contract I have with an entirely separate company? Pretty much anywhere other than the railways I would have every right to refuse.

Euston has representatives from VT, TfL & LM. I travel between there and Watford, which has representatives from both TfL and LM at the gate. Datchet has representatives of SWT. All the stations I use have reps of all TOCs that call there.

Based on this experience, why wouldn't I expect all other stations to be the same?

Just because you know everything you know, why do you assume everyone else has the same level of knowledge?
If all stations are to have reps from all TOC's that call at them how much are you prepared to pay for your tickets?
 

Tibbs

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If all stations are to have reps from all TOC's that call at them how much are you prepared to pay for your tickets?
Could you quote the bit where I said that?

I said that at the stations I used there were reps from each TOC. Nowhere did I say I thought they should be at each station.

Reading comprehension FTW.
 

wijit

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Originally Posted by NRCoC
22. Inspection of tickets
You must show and, if asked to do so by the staff of a Train Company or its agent, hand over for inspection a valid ticket and any relevant Railcard, photocard or other form of personal identification in accordance with Condition 15. If you do not, you will be treated as having joined a train without a ticket and the relevant parts of Condition 2 or 4 will apply. If an Electronic Ticket cannot be displayed, you will be treated as if you were unable to hand over for inspection a valid ticket.
Just playing Devils Advocate, and before you jump on me, I am more than happy to show my tickets to anyone who asks; The wording seems fairly precise "...a Train Operating Company or it's agent" this may be ambiguous, but it suggests that a person would have to hold authorisation by that particular TOC in order to see a ticket issued by them. Would it be reasonable to ask that individual to prove they have such authorisation? Is it implied, or is it stated?

The reply by Sonic2009 suggests much the same;
Taken from the byelaws : http://assets.dft.gov.uk/publications/railway-byelaws/railway-byelaws.pdf

(17).2 (2) A person shall hand over his ticket for inspection and verification of validity
when asked to do so by an authorised person.


“authorised person” means:
(i) a person acting in the course of his duties who:
(a) is an employee or agent of an Operator, or
(b) any other person authorised by an Operator, or
(ii) any constable, acting in the execution of his duties upon or in
connection with the railway;
I would never suggest it wise to challenge like this, but it is a curiosity.
 

notadriver

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Just playing Devils Advocate, and before you jump on me, I am more than happy to show my tickets to anyone who asks; The wording seems fairly precise "...a Train Operating Company or it's agent" this may be ambiguous, but it suggests that a person would have to hold authorisation by that particular TOC in order to see a ticket issued by them. Would it be reasonable to ask that individual to prove they have such authorisation? Is it implied, or is it stated?

The reply by Sonic2009 suggests much the same;

I would never suggest it wise to challenge like this, but it is a curiosity.
If I understand this correctly then a passenger could refuse to show their ticket to a driver if asked?
 

John @ home

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If I understand this correctly then a passenger could refuse to show their ticket to a driver if asked?
No. It seems to me that a train driver is either an officer of a railway company or a servant of a railway company.
Regulation of Railways Act 1889

5 Penalty for avoiding payment of fare.
(1) Every passenger by a railway shall, on request by an officer or servant of a railway company, either produce, and if so requested deliver up, a ticket showing that his fare is paid, or pay his fare from the place whence he started, or give the officer or servant his name and address; and in case of default shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding level 2 on the standard scale.

(2) If a passenger having failed either to produce, or if requested to deliver up, a ticket showing that his fare is paid, or to pay his fare, refuses on request by an officer or servant of a railway company, to give his name and address, any officer of the company may detain him until he can be conveniently brought before some justice or otherwise discharged by due course of law.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/Vict/52-53/57/section/5
 

Mr Spock

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Could you quote the bit where I said that?

I said that at the stations I used there were reps from each TOC. Nowhere did I say I thought they should be at each station.

Reading comprehension FTW.
This was part of your post that I replied to which as far as I can see means that you would expect all stations to have staff from all TOC's using them

"Euston has representatives from VT, TfL & LM. I travel between there and Watford, which has representatives from both TfL and LM at the gate. Datchet has representatives of SWT. All the stations I use have reps of all TOCs that call there.

Based on this experience, why wouldn't I expect all other stations to be the same?"
 

Tibbs

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This was part of your post that I replied to which as far as I can see means that you would expect all stations to have staff from all TOC's using them

"Euston has representatives from VT, TfL & LM. I travel between there and Watford, which has representatives from both TfL and LM at the gate. Datchet has representatives of SWT. All the stations I use have reps of all TOCs that call there.

Based on this experience, why wouldn't I expect all other stations to be the same?"
Exactly, I may expect there to be staff there based on prior experience, but I don't say whether I think that there should be staff there.

Read what's there, not what you think is there.
 

Mr Spock

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Exactly, I may expect there to be staff there based on prior experience, but I don't say whether I think that there should be staff there.

Read what's there, not what you think is there.


I never actually said that you said that all stations should have staff from all TOC's using them there, all I said was-

"If all stations are to have reps from all TOC's that call at them how much are you prepared to pay for your tickets?"

This means that for stations to meet with your expectations they would need to have staff from all TOC's, etc so perhaps you should read what I posted.
 

maniacmartin

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Well that depends on whether ticket checking is "in the course of [a driver's] duties"

I think that as the wording refers to "an Operator" not "the operator who issued the ticket" or "the operator whose services you are travelling on", then you would have to show the ticket to any TOC's staff or agents for whom ticket checking is part of their duties
 
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