Who is right? Season ticket problem

[richw]

bumblebee, it is perfectly acceptable to use your season ticket unlimited within the points of your ticket on any unacceptable route.
You can also buy a ticket from the end of your season ticket to any other point further away.

 

[Old Timer]

..£1 a week extra according to the National Rail site. I pay £68.30 a week for my LBZ-HDL season ticket, the National Rail site says it would be £69.30 to replace HDL with HRW..

Not a bad compromise to be honest, and takes away any hassles.

 

[dvboy]

Time for a stupid, and probably obvious answer question, but if I wanted to go to London Euston to do some shopping at the weekend, could I ask for a return ticket from HRW to Euston so that the season ticket covers me from LBZ to HRW and then the return ticket covers me from HRW to London Euston and back? It's not really a serious question, just something I'd pondered a few months back. I wouldn't be surprised if the answer is no but I thought I'd ask for the sake of asking.

yes you could

 

[causton]

My screen print attached to post 15 i didnt even put via Harrow! and got the Harrow route

Yes, sorry, didn't notice that, disappeared at the bottom of page 1! oops

 

[Bumblebee]

http://tickets.southernrailway.com/sn/en/JourneyPlanning/SeasonMixingDeck
(Do not worry that it says Southern, it all uses the same system behind the brand name)

...wait a minute!

Type in LBZ to Headstone Lane, but click More options and put via Harrow.

Seems if you route via Harrow explicitly it will let you do it!

Cheers causton. I imagine all the TOCs use the same database but have different interfaces on them according to their individual corporate colours?

Are you 100% confident that I'm in the right? I've already admitted I would concede defeat on that front if proved wrong, which would leave me just wanting to complain about the RPI's behaviour to me. If, however you are confident I am able to carry out my journey in the way I've been doing then I'll collect as much evidence as I possibly can in my complaint to London Overground.

an any permitted anytime ticket is valid via HRW. A season ticket has the same restrictions as a anytime ticket. Therefore it is an acceptable route. any journey planner will confirm this. If it is not permitted then these recommended journeys need removal from journey planner.
The OP is in the right, the RPI is wrong
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


My screen print attached to post 15 i didnt even put via Harrow! and got the Harrow route

As I ask of causton, are you 100% sure on that?

You don't even have to leave the station, so you can ride up and down the line and get on and off all you like.

Haha, don't tempt me.

I'm reminded by what you say about not leaving the station of the conversation I had with the person I bought a return ticket from LBZ to HDL when I went for my job interview. I asked if I had to get off at WFJ or HRW. She said that since I wasn't going to cross the barriers at HRW, i.e. leave the station, then I should be able to get off at HRW and use the Overground to come back one stop.

 

[richw]

Leighton Buzzard (LBZ) to Headstone Lane (HDL) is £1 a week less than a LBZ to HRW season ticket.

 

[Bumblebee]

Yes

Probably best to ask from one from Headstone Lane to Euston :P - or just get an Oyster card and use that!

Haha, yes. I wouldn't want to get fined for not having a valid ticket for the short distance between HDL and HRW eh! And I do have an Oyster card. I travelled south of HRW to Clapham Junction a year or so ago with some mates from work. I got my Oyster card from HDL that day and bunged a few quid on. I had my Oyster card with me today (its in the same wallet as my season ticket); I felt like telling the RPI to charge me for a HRW to HDL journey on my Oyster card if he was so sure he was right.

Not a bad compromise to be honest, and takes away any hassles.

I must say that I'm worried I'll still get into trouble with someone like him even with an LBZ HRW season ticket. He's "smart and knows what he's doing".

yes you could

Noice. Would save me a few £££.

Leighton Buzzard (LBZ) to Headstone Lane (HDL) is £1 a week less than a LBZ to HRW season ticket.

Yeah I checked that a few minutes ago when someone suggested a season ticket to HRW and not HDL. If I can use the routing guide to prove that LBZ-HRW-HDL is permissible with an LBZ-HRW season ticket I'll try that out and see what happens next time I encounter an RPI.

 

[dvboy]

Yeah I checked that a few minutes ago when someone suggested a season ticket to HRW and not HDL. If I can use the routing guide to prove that LBZ-HRW-HDL is permissible with an LBZ-HRW season ticket I'll try that out and see what happens next time I encounter an RPI.

that definitely is. i think you meant prove the lbz-hdl season ticket is valid via hrw in which case good luck as i don't believe it is (despite what NRE might think)

 

[Bumblebee]

that definitely is. i think you meant prove the lbz-hdl season ticket is valid via hrw in which case good luck as i don't believe it is (despite what NRE might think)

No I did mean the LBZ-HRW season ticket. After this morning I'm feeling a bit unsure as I didn't think I'd done anything wrong so what happened was a bit of a shock. I guess for this week I shall get off at WFJ and continue to HDL that way but then from next week onwards buy an LBZ-HRW season ticket and resume my normal route.

 

[Old Timer]

Yeah I checked that a few minutes ago when someone suggested a season ticket to HRW and not HDL. If I can use the routing guide to prove that LBZ-HRW-HDL is permissible with an LBZ-HRW season ticket I'll try that out and see what happens next time I encounter an RPI.

To be honest is it worth it for £1 ?

 

[Bumblebee]

I've just been back on the NRE site looking at prices for a return ticket from HRW to Euston. I'm getting prices of £8.50 for a return ticket. Saturday is off-peak yes? I then have a disabled adults railcard which then reduces the price from £8.50 to £5.60. Would anyone mind confirming that for me? I've often felt like going to Euston at the weekend but wasn't sure if I could use two cards for the journey, i.e., use my season ticket to take me as far as Harrow and Wealdstone (or Headstone Lane!) and then use another ticket bought from Leighton Buzzard to cover the Harrow and Wealdstone (or Headstone Lane) to Euston and back.

To be honest is it worth it for £1 ?

Hello Old Timer. Unless I've written my post wrong I was talking about buying a season ticket from LBZ to HRW (Leighton Buzzard to Harrow and Wealdstone) for the extra £1 but only once I was sure myself that it was a valid way to get to Headstone Lane by getting off at Harrow and Wealdstone.

I fully accept that for £1 extra a week I can get a season ticket which would allow me to carry on using the route I've been using.

 

[dvboy]

I would agree that it's worth the £1 extra to avoid hassle again, especially if the OP encounters the same RPI who may remember him/her from the last encounter.

I don't want the OP to feel like I have pressurised him/her into paying a £1 extra a week; I have merely offered my opinion based on the ticket and the routeing guide that I don't think the ticket is valid for the journey the OP wants to do by doubling back from HRW, while others have used NRE and booking engines to suggest it is.

 

[Bumblebee]

I would agree that it's worth the £1 extra to avoid hassle again, especially if the OP encounters the same RPI who may remember him/her from the last encounter.

Yeah, that's the main worry I have about getting an LBZ-HRW season ticket; if I should chance upon the same RPI, or him me, then I feel a bit unsure about how he'd react to me if he recognised me. Judging by the posts you've all made saying that a season ticket to Harrow and Wealdstone is the correct way of making my journey I feel confident that if I got spoken to by him again I'd be able to defend myself. If he gave me a fine next time I'd feel confident I could get the fine rescinded using my LBZ-HRW season ticket as proof I had the correct season ticket this time.

I don't want the OP to feel like I have pressurised him/her into paying a £1 extra a week; I have merely offered my opinion based on the ticket and the routeing guide that I don't think the ticket is valid for the journey the OP wants to do by doubling back from HRW, while others have used NRE and booking engines to suggest it is.

Oh, I don't feel threatened or pressurised at all. You've all been very helpful in clearing up a sticky situation that I didn't understand the ins and outs of at all. Even if I can prove that my current ticket is valid for my doubling back I think that for a measly £1 extra a week I'd be much better off with a season ticket to Harrow and Wealdstone. If we were talking £5 a week or more for the difference between HDL and HRW in the season ticket costs I might not want to bother. But for £1 a week more I think it's a very cheap price for insurance against getting treated like I did again.

 

[sheff1]

I would argue that the Routeing Guide discussion is a red herring in this case.

The National Rail Enquiries site (which is, of course, the defintive source of information) is quite clear that with a LBZ-HDL season ticket Travel is allowed by any route option shown by the Journey Planner where the journey can be made using only one ticket.

The Journey Planner is equally clear that LBZ-HDL, changing at HRW, only requires one ticket. Therefore the season is valid.

Whether it is worth the potential hassle to save £1 a week is another matter.

 

[Bumblebee]

I would argue that the Routeing Guide discussion is a red herring in this case.

The National Rail Enquiries site (which is, of course, the defintive source of information) is quite clear that with a LBZ-HDL season ticket Travel is allowed by any route option shown by the Journey Planner where the journey can be made using only one ticket.

The Journey Planner is equally clear that LBZ-HDL, changing at HRW, only requires one ticket. Therefore the season is valid.

Whether it is worth the potential hassle to save £1 a week is another matter.

What I will do tomorrow morning is get off at Watford Junction and use the London Overground from there to Headstone Lane. When I get back to Leighton Buzzard tomorrow evening I will speak to someone at the ticket desk for their view on whether my using the LBZ-HDL season ticket and that changing at Harrow is acceptable. As its £1 a week extra for peace of mind I'm happy to pay it. If it was much more then I'd feel more inclined to be absolutely bullet proof sure that what I've been doing was OK all along. I couldn't understand what the problem this morning was and was unable to present my case that I thought I was allowed to use Harrow and Wealdstone as a change station on my current season ticket. I will also get in touch with London Midland's head office and seek their opinion on the matter.

 

[sheff1]

I will also get in touch with London Midland's head office and seek their opinion on the matter.

Let us know the outcome if you could. It would be concerning if LM's advice contradicted the NRE position.

 

[Bumblebee]

Let us know the outcome if you could. It would be concerning if LM's advice contradicted the NRE position.

Of course I will. I intend to write to them and hope for a written reply. I will scan and upload any letter(s) I receive from LM. It is the very least I can do considering the fantastic response and advice I've received in this thread.

I might return to this thread when I'm writing the letter so that I can ask for advice on how to word the letter so that I am able to ask LM to give me their opinion in such a way that we can easily compare any reply to the NRE position.

 

[clagmonster]

First off, in the discussion did the RPI take any details such as your name and/or address?

Secondly, to answer your questions, your ticket is issued subject to the National Rail Conditions of Carriage (it will state this on the back). Condition 13 details which routes your ticket is valid on:
"13. The route you are entitled to take
(a) You may travel between the stations shown on the ticket you hold in:
(i) a through train;
(ii) trains which take the shortest route which can be used by scheduled
passenger services; or
(iii) trains which take the routes shown in the National Routeing Guide
(details as to how you can obtain this information will be available
when you buy your ticket).
...
(f) For the purposes of this Condition, a “through train” is one which may be
used by a passenger to make their entire journey without changing trains."
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/system/galleries/download/misc/NRCOC.pdf

There are no through Leighton Buzzard-Headstone Lane trains, so this part is irrelevent.

Candidates for the shortest route are:
Leighton Buzzard-Watford Jn 22.75 miles http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse%20documents/eNRT/Dec11/timetables/Table66.pdf
Watford Junction-Headstone Lane 5.25 miles http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse documents/eNRT/Dec11/timetables/Table60.pdf
Total 28 miles

Leighton Buzzard-Harrow & Wealdstone 28.75 miles http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse documents/eNRT/Dec11/timetables/Table66.pdf
Harrow & Wealdstone-Headstone Lane 1.25 miles http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse documents/eNRT/Dec11/timetables/Table60.pdf
Total 30 miles

So your route via Harrow is not the shortest. Therefore, we must refer to the National Routeing Guide, available here: http://www.atoc.org/about-atoc/rail-settlement-plan/routeing-guide

We find that Leighton Buzzard is a related station to Bletchley and to Watford Jn.
http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/routeing_point_identifier.pdf page 36

Headstone Lane is a related station to Watford Jn and Willesden Jn.
http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/routeing_point_identifier.pdf page 29
http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/RSPDocuments/instructions.pdf page 2

A Leighton Buzzard-Headstone Lane ticket would be valid via Harrow & Wealdstone as this route is within three emiles of the shortest route. See
"If there is a common routeing point, the permitted route is the shortest route or a
route which is longer by no more than 3 miles."
http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/RSPDocuments/nrg_detail.pdf page 7

 

[Bumblebee]

First off, in the discussion did the RPI take any details such as your name and/or address?

I will answer the rest of your post tomorrow. I'm just off to bed now but I will answer the first question.

Yes, after he showed me some badge in a leather wallet, he asked if I had any ID. I showed him my two part season ticket which had the initial of my first name and my last name. He asked for something with my full name so I showed him my bus pass (I'm hearing impaired and wear hearing aids). The bus pass also had a photo of me as well as my full name. He then wrote my name down on a piece of paper and then said he'd give me a chance today and walked off. He never asked for my address or if I could prove my address.

So your route via Harrow is not the shortest.

Just spotted this and would like to offer a comment on it. I've never bothered to work out the distances involved in the two possible routes but I use the Leighton Buzzard, get off at Harrow and Wealdstone, board an Overground train from HRW to Headstone Lane as the NRE site shows it to be the quickest route to get me to work at the time I need to be there by.

 

[yorkie]

Thanks to everyone who's replied. I really appreciate your quick and friendly advice and information. I realised I was probably in the wrong but I still feel the behaviour of the inspector was uncalled for

This attitude is not uncommon in the London area on TOCs that operate Penalty Fare (Buy before you board compulsory) schemes. Fortunately it is very rare when I am.

Time for a stupid, and probably obvious answer question, but if I wanted to go to London Euston to do some shopping at the weekend, could I ask for a return ticket from HRW to Euston so that the season ticket covers me from LBZ to HRW and then the return ticket covers me from HRW to London Euston and back? It's not really a serious question, just something I'd pondered a few months back. I wouldn't be surprised if the answer is no but I thought I'd ask for the sake of asking.

A Season from Leighton Buzzard to HRW, and a return from HRW to London is a valid combination of tickets (under National Rail Conditions of Carriage, Condition 19). The train does not need to call at HRW, however East Midlands Trains are reportedly instructing ATOC to make a request to the DfT to change this rule so the train would have to call at HRW. If you, or any other Season ticket holders have any concerns about this, I recommend you write to your MP, Passenger Focus and Norman Baker (at his DfT email address). History tells us the DfT are likely to agree to the changes without any reasonable consultation.

I felt like telling the RPI to charge me for a HRW to HDL journey on my Oyster card if he was so sure he was right.

I must say that I'm worried I'll still get into trouble with someone like him even with an LBZ HRW season ticket. He's "smart and knows what he's doing".

They cannot do that. For travelling "over distance" the only fare that they can charge is a Penalty Fare. On London Overground that is £50 (reduced to £25 if paid within 21 days). Penalty Fares are considered "fair" by Boris Johnson and various other people as a fair way of charging people who make innocent mistakes like this.

Note that some innocent mistakes would only incur an excess fare.

If there was evidence that it was deliberate and an attempt to dodge the fare then it would not be a Penalty Fare and would be a more serious matter.

Yeah I checked that a few minutes ago when someone suggested a season ticket to HRW and not HDL. If I can use the routing guide to prove that LBZ-HRW-HDL is permissible with an LBZ-HRW season ticket I'll try that out and see what happens next time I encounter an RPI.

If you brought with you a printout from National Rail Enquiries, they would "let you off" I am reasonably sure. But they'd probably contact the relevant people who could add a "negative easement" (yes I know that's an oxymoron, but ATOC like to make up rules as they go along and act as if they are a Regulator, the DfT appears to condone their actions most of the time) and once this "negative easement" was introduced the booking engines may no longer show it.

However it could be argued that the negative easement is unenforceable as the Routeing Guide allows the shortest route without any need to consult the Guide. However some people would counter that argument by saying it's not the absolute shortest and only counts because of the "within 3 miles" rule that can only be discovered by reading the guide, and if you read the guide then negative easements apply. People would disagree on that issue and just debating that point alone could be a 10-page thread on this forum I will try to avoid that situation by not stating an opinion for definite either way and agreeing that it would be "debatable"

 

[RJ]

an any permitted anytime ticket is valid via HRW. A season ticket has the same restrictions as a anytime ticket. Therefore it is an acceptable route. any journey planner will confirm this. If it is not permitted then these recommended journeys need removal from journey planner.

That isn't actually true. Have a look at Tring - Kentish Town and tell me if the season ticket and non season ticket have the same routing validity.

 

[Paul Kelly]

As yorkie has said, it is not a classic case of doubling back as you don't actually pass through any station twice: you pass through Headstone Lane once but the second time you get off there and don't pass through, and you don't pass through Harrow & Wealdstone either as you come back out the same side. So no doubling back is involved.

The objection most revenue inspectors would have is that you would be overriding if you go to Harrow & Wealdstone on a ticket that is only valid to Headstone Lane. But as clagmonster said, this is in fact debateable in this case since the routeing guide allows routes up to 3 miles shorter than the shortest route, and changing at Harrow & Wealdstone is within this margin.

So, it looks like it is valid after all - but it might take quite a bit of explanation, with copies of the routeing guide to hand, to convince some revenue inspectors. The season to Harrow & Wealdstone is the easy option for less hassle, but you would be paying more than you need to.

The reason the National Rail Enquiries is showing this as valid is either that it is correctly applying the "within 3 miles" rule, or that it doesn't realise that you would be overriding, because it doesn't know that the first train has already passed through Headstone Lane without stopping, because it doesn't have a proper model of the geography of the rail network built-in. A printout from this site would also be helpful in arguing your case.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....A Leighton Buzzard-Headstone Lane ticket would be valid via Harrow & Wealdstone as this route is within three emiles of the shortest route. See
"If there is a common routeing point, the permitted route is the shortest route or a
route which is longer by no more than 3 miles."....

That is the only way I can see it being valid.

As yorkie has said, it is not a classic case of doubling back as you don't actually pass through any station twice: you pass through Headstone Lane once but the second time you get off there and don't pass through, and you don't pass through Harrow & Wealdstone either as you come back out the same side. So no doubling back is involved....

I'm just curious, if you are not passing through Headstone Lane a second time, would you be staying on the station until your next rail journey?

 

[oversteer]

The OP shouldn't attempt to use their Oyster card to get through the gates at Euston if they hasn't touched in already

But now I think about it ..
is his season ticket valid if he gets off the train at Harrow & Wealdstone, touches in, and then boards the next train to Euston ?
or would he have to travel to Headstone Lane, then touch in and travel back through H&W to Euston?

similarly on the return journey ?

 

[Paul Kelly]

I'm just curious, if you are not passing through Headstone Lane a second time, would you be staying on the station until your next rail journey?

Yes indeed. Section A of the Routeing Guide defines doubling back as

passing through the same station twice on a single journey

It's debatable of course if you enter a station by rail and leave on foot, whether you have "passed through" the station on your journey, especially seeing your journey will end when you leave the premises! Personally I don't think you can be considered to be passing through a station that your journey ends at. But nothing is ever clear with the routeing guide...

 

[thedbdiboy]

This is a very interesting case. Having gone 'staright to source' in NRE, the following comments have been made to me:

a) Doubling back does include getting off at a station, so there is a double-back in this case
b) The origin and destination share Watford Junction as a common routeing point so the '3 mile' clause does not apply
c) The journey planner suggests travel via H&W as Headstone Lane is not a timing point in RJIS so the software cannot detect the double back. However it is well established that the Journey Planner offering a set of times is not of itself conclusive evidence that the route is permitted.

I reaslise that there are some posting here that will argue with this, all I am doing is quoting directly from the very same sources that will ultimately arbitrate if this is followed up through LM (and hopefully saving everyone a bit of time in the process).

As has already been suggested (and accepted by the OP) buying a Leighton Buzzard - H&W Season unequivocally allows the double back for the sake of £1 a week!

 

[LexyBoy]

National Rail Enquiries supports the validity of the route (although it now appears that it is indeed valid according to the Routeing Guide). If you search for a Leighton Buzzard-Headstone Lane Season, the only option (excluding Travelcards) states:

Leighton Buzzard (LBZ) to Headstone Lane (HDL)

Available Standard Class Adult Season Tickets (Travel is allowed by any route option shown by the Journey Planner where the journey can be made using only one ticket.)

Clearly, the Journey Planner shows that the journey can be made using only one ticket. Under the link "Routes, Availability and Fares are subject to these provisions" the following further supports the validity of the route:

Permitted Routes

The ticket that you have selected may require you to travel via a specific route. Our Journey Planner will have already taken this into account with the selection that you have made and will only have shown tickets that are valid for the selected trains. If you wish to travel via a specific route you can use the advanced options on the Journey Planner to select ‘travel via', ‘avoid', ‘include interchange' or ‘exclude interchange' so that the route and the required ticket(s) will be recalculated for you.

All tickets are valid via any reasonable route unless specifically stated on the ticket.

Note that the Routeing Guide is the definitive resource, as it (via the NRCoC) forms part of your contract. However, NRE does describe itself as "the definitive guide to rail services in the UK" or somesuch. The fact that there is so much waffle written by people without a full knowledge of the fares and routeing system (as in the last line of the last quote!) doesn't help make things clear, but it does help your argument that it is valid.

is his season ticket valid if he gets off the train at Harrow & Wealdstone, touches in, and then boards the next train to Euston ?
or would he have to travel to Headstone Lane, then touch in and travel back through H&W to Euston?

similarly on the return journey ?

If Harrow is a permitted route for Leighton Buzzard - Headstone Lane, then it is permissible to do this as a Season ticket allows travel "between the stations shown and at any intermediate stations by any Permitted Route". Harrow would be an intermediate station on a Permitted Route (albeit not geographically).

However I'd think that it would be simpler to just purchase a paper single/return/Travelcard from Harrow as it would save getting off the train, and would also mean that there would be no need for the train to stop at Harrow (not sure whether there are non-stop services though).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

However it is well established that the Journey Planner offering a set of times is not of itself conclusive evidence that the route is permitted.

But if the Journey Planner shows a single ticket as being valid for a particular journey, it is not fair to penalise the customer for taking this route if it turns out to be invalid when assessed using the Routeing Guide.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

b) The origin and destination share Watford Junction as a common routeing point so the '3 mile' clause does not apply

Are they sure about that?

If there is a common routeing point, the permitted route is the shortest route or a route which is longer by no more than 3 miles. Also permitted is the route followed by direct trains to and from the common routeing point if the journey is made on those trains.

 

[button_boxer]

Do you actually "pass through" Headstone Lane on the LM service, given that it only has platforms on the Overground DC line and not on the main lines?

 

[dvboy]

Originally Posted by http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/RSPDocuments/nrg_detail.pdf
If there is a common routeing point, the permitted route is the shortest route or a route which is longer by no more than 3 miles. Also permitted is the route followed by direct trains to and from the common routeing point if the journey is made on those trains.

Just to be pedantic, to me "the" implies there is one permitted route, otherwise it would say "a permitted route".

 

[Paul Kelly]

Do you actually "pass through" Headstone Lane on the LM service, given that it only has platforms on the Overground DC line and not on the main lines?

Ha ha ha I thought about that too but didn't want to mention it as I thought there were already enough debatable factors

In any case I think the 3-mile rule is the main bone of contention. Doubling back is allowed if following the shortest route or a route less than 3 miles longer (and might sometimes be necessary due to stopping patterns of trains).