Who is right? Season ticket problem

[34D]

I mean I've had it confirmed that I'm allowed to travel through the stating station of my season ticket, using the season ticket alone, because it has multiple valid routes to the destination. The fact I'm going from one route to the next without actually stopped at my season tickets starting station doesn't matter.

Believe Mr Doe has previously written about this scenario, and agrees it can be done. An example would be a Micklfield-Doncaster season (valid I assume via Leeds, Selby, or quite possibly York) being used on a non-stop Selby-Leeds train.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Watford High St is clearly not on the Main Line. Neither is Bowes Park. Both are on "loops" (or branches that rejoin).

Headstone Lane is on the WCML

Do you acknowledge that there is no physical connection between the up dc and the down fast from just south of Watford Jct to (iirc) Euston throat? Certainly no such connection between Watford High st or Harrow & wealdstone.

That being the case, other than the fact that they are close, why do you say Watford High St isn't on the WCML but the other is?

 

[RJ]

It would seem on the basis of all logical reasoning therefore that the season ticket has the same availability restrictions as the normal fare

This is not true for all journeys. Like I said earlier, the Tring to Kentish Town season ticket does not have the same routing validity as the corresponding non-season ticket.

 

[Old Timer]

This is not true for all journeys. Like I said earlier, the Tring to Kentish Town season ticket does not have the same routing validity as the corresponding non-season ticket.

Yes, I was speaking purely in respect of the journey in question, rather than the generalities, but maybe it is a point worth stating.

 

[WelshBluebird]

While I get why people are saying "just pay the extra £1", for me it is not the amount that I would be annoyed by. It would be the principle. If the ticket is valid (and even ignoring the routing guide etc, NRE says it IS valid), then why on earth should I have to pay more money for a different ticket? It is just wrong that I would be expected to have to do that.

this is the same scenario as anywhere in Cornwall to Gunnislake, up trains pass through Devonport and Dockyard, if not others, but very few call. routing allows to carry on to Plymouth and change back. This is the same situation

Similar when travelling to Oldfield Park. Most trains passing through the station do not stop there, so you are allowed to change at Bath Spa or Bristol Temple Meads, even if that means doubling back to Oldfield park.

 

[RJ]

While I get why people are saying "just pay the extra £1", for me it is not the amount that I would be annoyed by. It would be the principle. If the ticket is valid (and even ignoring the routing guide etc, NRE says it IS valid), then why on earth should I have to pay more money for a different ticket? It is just wrong that I would be expected to have to do that.

I'm a man of principles, but for 20p a day, I'd be happy to avoid potential conflicts with RPIs. You have to ask yourself if the stress is worth it. Like me, sometimes I reduce the amount of splits I do on my intercity travel. It costs a little more, but if I need to study on the train, I'd appreciate the extra peace and quiet, because I know that splitting at places like St Albans and Harpenden is likely to be challenged by RPIs on EMT.

 

[jon0844]

Or, you get a situation like me with my split ticket (Hatfield to Zone 4-6 TC +, Zone 1-3 TC) that, following my three hour 'detention', resulted in a bulletin being sent to everyone, citing my tickets as an example of a valid combination!!

Sent from my Sinclair Spectrum via Tapatalk

 

[bb21]

She said that since I wasn't going to cross the barriers at HRW, i.e. leave the station, then I should be able to get off at HRW and use the Overground to come back one stop.

This is appalling advice if true, as it gives the impression that not having to go through barriers is a main reason why you can doubleback, whereas in reality this is determined by whether the route is valid or not, irrespective of whether you have to go through ticket barriers.

I travelled south of HRW to Clapham Junction a year or so ago with some mates from work. I got my Oyster card from HDL that day and bunged a few quid on.

As has already been pointed out, combining a season ticket and an ordinary Single/Return ticket means that you can travel on a through train without having to stop at the point where you change from one ticket to the other. This is not applicable if you do not purchase a paper Single/Return ticket and instead use Oyster PAYG, due to the fact that you will need to de-train, and then touch in, at the changeover point, which in most cases would mean having to wait for the next train.

Yeah I checked that a few minutes ago when someone suggested a season ticket to HRW and not HDL. If I can use the routing guide to prove that LBZ-HRW-HDL is permissible with an LBZ-HRW season ticket I'll try that out and see what happens next time I encounter an RPI.

To address some of the confusion you have, the reason that LBZ-HRW-HDL is definitely a permitted itinerary is not that LBZ-HRW-HDL is arguably a permitted route per se, but rather that once you reach HRW, you can then start a new journey at HRW, which is clearly also covered by your LBZ-HRW season ticket. Given that a season ticket has no break of journey restrictions along permitted routes, you can just break your journey legitimately at HDL.

Saturday is off-peak yes? I then have a disabled adults railcard which then reduces the price from £8.50 to £5.60. Would anyone mind confirming that for me? I've often felt like going to Euston at the weekend but wasn't sure if I could use two cards for the journey, i.e., use my season ticket to take me as far as Harrow and Wealdstone (or Headstone Lane!) and then use another ticket bought from Leighton Buzzard to cover the Harrow and Wealdstone (or Headstone Lane) to Euston and back.

You are perfectly entitled to use a combination of tickets covering the complete journey you are making, as detailed in NRCoC Condition 19. The ticket office at Leighton Buzzard should be able to sell you a ticket starting from Harrow.

I am unable to locate the £8.50 fare quoted above.

Yes indeed. Section A of the Routeing Guide defines doubling back as


It's debatable of course if you enter a station by rail and leave on foot, whether you have "passed through" the station on your journey, especially seeing your journey will end when you leave the premises! Personally I don't think you can be considered to be passing through a station that your journey ends at. But nothing is ever clear with the routeing guide...

I think it is within the spirit of the terms that entering a station by foot and leaving by train or vice versa should be considered as "passing through" the station, however I agree that it is very poorly worded.

c) The journey planner suggests travel via H&W as Headstone Lane is not a timing point in RJIS so the software cannot detect the double back. However it is well established that the Journey Planner offering a set of times is not of itself conclusive evidence that the route is permitted.

I believe fundamentally this is the main reason why the double-back is not detected.

Another interesting thread. Would the OP still not be at risk if NRE changed its journey planner (which it could do at any time), ie. a screenshot essentially just shows the validity of the fare that day but doesn't necessarily provide assurance that it will still be valid tomorrow (since validities/easements etc. can be changed).

For the reason detailed above, I don't think this is possible as the system cannot detect this particular doubleback.

 

[Bumblebee]

As has already been pointed out, combining a season ticket and an ordinary Single/Return ticket means that you can travel on a through train without having to stop at the point where you change from one ticket to the other. This is not applicable if you do not purchase a paper Single/Return ticket and instead use Oyster PAYG, due to the fact that you will need to de-train, and then touch in, at the changeover point, which in most cases would mean having to wait for the next train.

I only ever use Oyster when I'm at work and going further towards London than Harrow. I understand that I couldn't use an Oyster to combine with my ticket if I wanted to use the Oyster for Harrow to Euston. Like you say, by the time I get off the train and tap in I'll be waiting for another train. I was asking if I could use another ticket to cover Harrow-Euston that would complement my Leighton Buzzard to Headstone Lane ticket. I wouldn't mix Oyster and tickets.

You are perfectly entitled to use a combination of tickets covering the complete journey you are making, as detailed in NRCoC Condition 19. The ticket office at Leighton Buzzard should be able to sell you a ticket starting from Harrow.

Lovely.

Just had a thought though, what if the train I get on only called at Euston and didn't stop at Harrow, would I still be able to use the two tickets (i.e. my season ticket and the ticket covering me for Harrow to Euston)? I'd presumably have to show the guard both the tickets?

 

[yorkie]

I only ever use Oyster when I'm at work and going further towards London than Harrow. I understand that I couldn't use an Oyster to combine with my ticket if I wanted to use the Oyster for Harrow to Euston. Like you say, by the time I get off the train and tap in I'll be waiting for another train. I was asking if I could use another ticket to cover Harrow-Euston that would complement my Leighton Buzzard to Headstone Lane ticket. I wouldn't mix Oyster and tickets.

I think using tickets that leave a gap between Headstone Lane and Harrow & Wealdstone, whatever the reasoning, is dodgy. However in this case a paper ticket from Harrow to Euston is the same price as Headstone Lane to Euston.

Just had a thought though, what if the train I get on only called at Euston and didn't stop at Harrow, would I still be able to use the two tickets (i.e. my season ticket and the ticket covering me for Harrow to Euston)? I'd presumably have to show the guard both the tickets?

Yes (but EMT have requested ATOC to ask the DfT to change the rules to disallow this in future).

 

[Bumblebee]

I think using tickets that leave a gap between Headstone Lane and Harrow & Wealdstone, whatever the reasoning, is dodgy. However in this case a paper ticket from Harrow to Euston is the same price as Headstone Lane to Euston.

Of course. I would have got a Headstone Lane to Euston before today, but today I renewed my season ticket to go to Harrow and Wealdstone so now I would buy a Harrow to Euston ticket.

I mentioned my 'fun' last week to the woman at the desk when I renewed my ticket. She seemed to think it was valid and that "it's a difficult one"; so even a LM employee can't be 100% sure. She's given me a comment form to fill out to ask LM head office what they think about the validity of the ticket.

 

[kieron]

I know this is an old thread, but I've been looking at the logic NRE uses when the quickest route between two stations involves doubling back.

It seems to be something like this:

Is it a through train? If so (as with some Ellesmere Port-Little Sutton-Overpool routes), it's one ticket.
If not, is the train you are using allowed to stop at your start or end station en route? If so (as with some Bangor-Llandudno Junction-Conwy routes), it's two tickets.
If not, is the extra distance no more than three miles? If so (as with Hawarden Bridge-Shotton-Neston), it's one ticket.
If the extra distance is further (as Holyhead-Bangor-Llanfairpwllgwyngyll), it's two.

Hunts Cross is listed as being 1 3/4 miles from Liverpool South Parkway on the Liverpool-Manchester timetable, so I don't think that falls into the third category. It's 1 1/2 miles on the Merseytravel Northern line, but the train of interest doesn't use that anyway.

 

[John @ home]

An interesting analysis, kieron. What do you mean by a train being "allowed to stop"?

I think you may need another category for situations like Chathill - Berwick-upon-Tweed. There is no service between these two adjacent stations 21 miles apart. There are two sets of fares:

• route Direct, valid Chathill - Alnmouth - Berwick, 43.5 miles.
  This is the shortest route and also valid due to Easement 24: "Journeys to Chathill from the north may change trains at Alnmouth and double back to Chathill. This easement applies in both directions."
• the more expensive route Any Permitted, valid Chathill - Alnmouth - Newcastle - Alnmouth - Berwick, 113 miles.
  This is valid due to Easement 65: "Journeys from Chathill, Alnmouth, Acklington, Widdrington, Pegswood, Morpeth, Cramlington and Manors to Berwick-upon-Tweed and stations in Scotland may double back from Newcastle on tickets routed "Any Permitted". This easement applies in both directions."

http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/easements.pdf

 

[kieron]

An interesting analysis, kieron. What do you mean by a train being "allowed to stop"?

Thank you. I meant that it either stops there, or stops there on request. Conwy's a request stop, for instance.

I think you may need another category for situations like Chathill - Berwick-upon-Tweed.

You're right that exceptions allow single tickets to be used for some journeys which involves doubling back, but it's hard to turn them into a rule when the routeing guide is such a mess.

For instance, easement 65 exists, but so does easement 700216:

Customers travelling from Chathill to or via Berwick Upon Tweed in possession of tickets routed DIRECT or ANY PERMITTED may not travel via Morpeth. This easement applies in both directions.

NRE seems to have interpreted this as rescinding 65 entirely. That said, if you request a ticket via Morpeth, it gives you one ticket to Newcastle and one back instead of changing at Morpeth itself, and so paying £9.90 extra off-peak to use the same trains.

The Northern Rail site does show times for both Alnmouth and Newcastle routes, but the Newcastle ones vanish when you ask for prices. I don't know what is available at a ticket office.

Incidentally, do you know if the lack of Chathill-Berwick trains is due to a lack of suitable paths, or if it is it just that the operators can't agree a price for the extension?

 

[John @ home]

I meant that it either stops there, or stops there on request.

Thanks for that explanation.

It seems to be something like this:

Is it a through train? If so (as with some Ellesmere Port-Little Sutton-Overpool routes), it's one ticket.
If not, is the train you are using allowed to stop at your start or end station en route? If so (as with some Bangor-Llandudno Junction-Conwy routes), it's two tickets.

In previous discussions of advertised through trains which stop at some stations more than once, we have taken the view that the validity of a Single ticket, or a leg of a Return ticket, expires on the first occasion it is being used when a train stops (other than to pick up passengers only) at the destination printed on the ticket. Search for "Fife Circle" for more details.

Incidentally, do you know if the lack of Chathill-Berwick trains is due to a lack of suitable paths, or if it is it just that the operators can't agree a price for the extension?

I remember the all-stations Newcastle - Edinburgh service with one daily train in each direction. In 1980, a work colleague living in Belford used this as part of a Chathill - Haymarket commute. He often had sole use of a compartment on the northbound journey. IIRC, the service was truncated to Chathill about the time of privatisation. I don't remember a Chathill - Berwick service being specified by DfT or its predecessors as part of a privatised franchise.

easement 65 exists

Journeys from Chathill, Alnmouth, Acklington, Widdrington, Pegswood, Morpeth, Cramlington and Manors to Berwick-upon-Tweed and stations in Scotland may double back from Newcastle on tickets routed "Any Permitted". This easement applies in both directions.

but so does easement 700216:

Customers travelling from Chathill to or via Berwick Upon Tweed in possession of tickets routed DIRECT or ANY PERMITTED may not travel via Morpeth. This easement applies in both directions.

If it is ATOC's intention to delete Easement 65, then Passenger Focus need to be alerted to seek to ensure that the wider route availability provided at the time of the withdrawal of the Chathill - Berwick service continues to be honoured.

 

[kieron]

Thanks for that explanation.
In previous discussions of advertised through trains which stop at some stations more than once, we have taken the view that the validity of a Single ticket, or a leg of a Return ticket, expires on the first occasion it is being used when a train stops (other than to pick up passengers only) at the destination printed on the ticket. Search for "Fife Circle" for more details.

I don't take a view on how the rules might be interpreted if a dispute was taken to court. It is a fact that NRE will show a route from Ellesmere Port to Overpool via Little Sutton using a single ticket, which involves the passenger staying on a train for over an hour as it goes along the Wirral.

As for ticket vendors, Northern Rail won't sell a ticket for that route (although they will list a journey from Ellesmere Port to Overpool via Helsby and Chester on a single ticket), but Arriva will. Merseyrail only sell a limited range of tickets.

I don't know how an individual member of staff might feel about such a journey, though.

I remember the all-stations Newcastle - Edinburgh service with one daily train in each direction. In 1980, a work colleague living in Belford used this as part of a Chathill - Haymarket commute. He often had sole use of a compartment on the northbound journey. IIRC, the service was truncated to Chathill about the time of privatisation. I don't remember a Chathill - Berwick service being specified by DfT or its predecessors as part of a privatised franchise.

Thanks. I can't imagine anyone using the current train for that sort of commute today, as the Berwick-Chathill journey is pretty awful (if the link doesn't include £9.40 journeys, delete any ojp.nationalrail.co.uk cookies and try again). There's a train at 6:00 with a 13 minute connection, and one at 11:48 which involves waiting in Alnmouth for six hours. Even if you change at Newcastle, the journey takes almost 2 1/2 hours. Most people would find a 'bus more appropriate to their needs, at least on the summer timetable.

I suppose the point is that the service is provided for commuters into Newcastle. If it works out for anyone else, it's just a happy co-incidence.

If it is ATOC's intention to delete Easement 65, then Passenger Focus need to be alerted to seek to ensure that the wider route availability provided at the time of the withdrawal of the Chathill - Berwick service continues to be honoured.

I wouldn't like to read intent from the output of a computer program, but that does seem to be the effect of easement 700216 on the NRE site.