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Why are people opposed to HS2? (And other HS2 discussion)

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ohgoditsjames

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As a country things these days take far too long to get through planning and actually built.

Nigel says you can’t build that there because you’ll disturb the local resident mouse means we can’t have things like HS2 built with a sense of urgency.
 
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GrimShady

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By 2011, the Chinese had plenty of mistakes globally to have learned from (30 +years of high speed line operation in othee countries)....and didn't. Let's learn what *not* to do from them.

Which means taking time to plan and build things out properly, not some sort of crazed railway mania.

It's not realy acceptable to accept killing people as a form of experimentation in the name of progress.

So because they made mistakes means we can't learn from them or do better?

No one is talking about killing workers as a form of experimentation. Of which we where pretty good at here way before China.

The start of two or three simultaneous construction projects has absolutely zero influence on Health and Safety.

Or we could spend the next hundred years planning what we already know. It took France 40 due to being pioneers. We can half that no problem.
 

al78

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There seems to be an anti-HS2 argument on this thread which hinges on the fact that HS2 will not benefit some people. This is a version of the Nirvana fallacy, i.e. something that isn't perfect isn't worth doing. If nothing on a country scale ever got constructed because someone somewhere didn't see a tangible benefit (as opposed to an indirect benefit), there would be little infrastructure other than the essentials for living. It is the sort of argument I have encountered from insular ego-centric individuals who say things like "why should I pay more tax to fund schools/hospitals when I don't have children/have never been ill?". It is not all about you.
 

Ianno87

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So because they made mistakes means we can't learn from them or do better?

No one is talking about killing workers as a form of experimentation. Of which we where pretty good at here way before China.

The start of two or three simultaneous construction projects has absolutely zero influence on Health and Safety.

Or we could spend the next hundred years planning what we already know.

Nothing stopping us doing simultaneous constuction projects then. HS2 is one of them. Nothing stopping something else being done simultaneosly for the areas that HS2 doesn't serve. Could be High Speed rail, could be something else entirely.

The idea that HS2 somehow has to serve every nook as cranny of the country to justify itself is absurd. In its own right it has a net positive impact on the overall economy of the UK. And *is* the start of a national high speed network....but is the core part of that and as a result the most important bit to get right!
 

al78

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As a country things these days take far too long to get through planning and actually built.

Nigel says you can’t build that there because you’ll disturb the local resident mouse means we can’t have things like HS2 built with a sense of urgency.

Nothing like an exaggeration to make me instantly reject someones assertion. :rolleyes:
 

GrimShady

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Nothing stopping us doing simultaneous constuction projects then. HS2 is one of them. Nothing stopping something else being done simultaneosly for the areas that HS2 doesn't serve. Could be High Speed rail, could be something else entirely.

The idea that HS2 somehow has to serve every nook as cranny of the country to justify itself is absurd. In its own right it has a net positive impact on the overall economy of the UK. And *is* the start of a national high speed network....but is the core part of that and as a result the most important bit to get right!

Nothing stopping us from commencing all stage of HS rail.

So you consider the North and Scotland to be every nook and cranny? Yeah lets again divert billions of pounds down south for another expensive project...that's a good way of convincing the rest of us.

Show us the overall positive impact, I can't see it 350 miles north. Try explaining that to the SNP (whom I despise).

I've said my piece, I've explained why those in the North don't see the value, I've explained how abto go about thing to include the whole country. As I stated before I all for HS rail but this isn't good enough. We are very bad in this country for too little, too late this is a prime example, HS1 is another one.
 
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GrimShady

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Where do we find all the money, all the people, all the materials, and all the machinery required?

We could do it for war if we wanted but a peacetime project oh no. The chinese would probably build it for you.

Maybe we should start a smaller project North first before committing to a vastly bigger one south? ;)

Anyway I've said my bit, nothing more to add.
 

The Ham

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We could do it for war if we wanted but a peacetime project oh no. The chinese would probably build it for you.

Maybe we should start a smaller project North first before committing to a vastly bigger one south? ;)

Anyway I've said my bit, nothing more to add.

If only there was a little project for the North which could be started:

http://www.railtechnologymagazine.c...led-29bn-upgrade-plans-for-transpennine-route

https://www.networkrail.co.uk/runni...e-plan/key-projects/great-north-rail-project/
 

Bald Rick

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I'm not wrong though am I? We do let obscene objections stop progress.

I’m afraid you are wrong. For a democracy, we have one of the slicker planning processes. There’s lines in Germany and France that were 20 years and more in planning.

HS2’s recent issues are rather less to do with planning and more to do with politics. The planning phase, including all the necessary statutory procedures, took 8 years from start to finish, which is rather quicker for a project of this size than the equivalent processes anywhere else in the democratic world. (By way of example, the LGV SEA from Tours to Bordeaux commenced studies in 1992, and received it’s final statutory approval 17 years later; it then took 8 years to build across open farmland).

This HS2 planning phase for phase 1 finished almost 3 years ago. All the time since then has been awaiting a political decision on proceeding (effectively providing the money), and that delay has been caused (principally) by our dear old friend Mr Br**it. Note that this political delay has also added considerably to the cost. It is of course rather convenient for politicians to froth about cost increases and schedule delays, but the cause is often to be found in the bathroom mirror.
 
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ohgoditsjames

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I’m afraid you are wrong. For a democracy, we have one of the slicker planning processes. There’s lines in Germany and France that were 20 years and more in planning.

HS2’s recent issues are rather less to do with planning and more to do with politics. The planning phase, including all the necessary statutory procedures, took 8 years from start to finish, which is rather quicker for a project of this size than the equivalent processes anywhere else in the democratic world. (By way of example, the LGV SEA from Tours to Bordeaux commenced studies in 1992, and received it’s final statutory approval 17 years later).

This HS2 planning phase for phase 1 finished almost 3 years ago. All the time since then has been awaiting a political decision on proceeding (effectively providing the money), and that delay has been caused (principally) by our dear old friend Mr Br**it. Note that this political delay has also added considerably to the cost. It is of course rather convenient for politicians to froth about cost increases and schedule delays, but the cause is often to be found in the bathroom mirror.

My comment was hugely exaggerated and wasn’t expected to be received so literally, however....

With the nature of my job and the company I work I know all to well about the kind of complaints and objections that we get that do in fact affect our schemes. In the middle of designing several 132kV circuit diversions, pylon relocations, overhead rebuilds and pole placement changes to make way for HS2 and I can tell you now it’s an absolute farce. Wayleave agreements and easements just add to it.
 

Bald Rick

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My comment was hugely exaggerated and wasn’t expected to be received so literally, however....

The nature of my job and the company I work I know all to well about the kind of complaints and objections that we get that do in fact affect our schemes. In the middle of 132kV diversions, photon relocations, overhead rebuilds and pole placement changes to make way for HS2 and I can tell you now it’s an absolute farce.

Ah, apologies. My reply was in any event for general info to the many people who seem to think we are the only country that has a complex planning process. We’re not!

Photon relocations - sounds interesting! Is that not teleportation? ;)
 

ohgoditsjames

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Ah, apologies. My reply was in any event for general info to the many people who seem to think we are the only country that has a complex planning process. We’re not!

Photon relocations - sounds interesting! Is that not teleportation? ;)

Typo, had a fork in my other hand :lol: However I do know a thing or two about light (Photons) amplified by the stimulated emission of radiation...8-)

The worry I have about our planning speed is more down to me fearing it will never happen the longer it drags on, however I know it’s not as simple as “just build it!”
 
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Tetchytyke

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There seems to be an anti-HS2 argument on this thread which hinges on the fact that HS2 will not benefit some people. This is a version of the Nirvana fallacy, i.e. something that isn't perfect isn't worth doing.

If something will cost £100bn to build but will only achieve £90bn of benefits, is it worth doing?
 

Tetchytyke

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Are you suggesting that there's a billion pounds of benefit just from passengers to/from Crewe with the fairly small passenger numbers which pass through that station?

No, and you know fine well I'm not. Stop being disingenuous.

Crewe is where HS2 will end, and so the alleged benefits for Liverpool, Chester, North Wales, the Wirral, Warrington, Wigan, Preston, Southport, Blackburn, Burnley, Lancaster, Blackpool, Carlisle and Cumbria, Dumfries and Galloway, Lanarkshire and Glasgow are all predicated on the journey time from London to Crewe.

The BCR of 1.1 is based on 18tph and 360km/h running, but we're not going to get either. HS2's OWN ESTIMATES are that reducing to 14tph will reduce the benefits by 24% but only reduce cost by 6%. HS2 now estimate they will only run 14tph and at 300km/h. Where does this leave HS2?

A BCR of less than 1, remember, means we'd be better off finsncially not doing something.
 

lachlan

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If something will cost £100bn to build but will only achieve £90bn of benefits, is it worth doing?
Yes, if it adds capacity to the railways which will reduce car usage and encourages sustainable long distance travel to reduce the number of internal flights. HS2 does both of those
 

Tetchytyke

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Yes, if it adds capacity to the railways which will reduce car usage and encourages sustainable long distance travel

Those factors are included in the £92bn of benefits, remember. They're not an added extra.

So if the value of these things is lower than the cost of HS2, why do you think it's good value for money?
 

lachlan

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Those factors are included in the £92bn of benefits, remember. They're not an added extra.

So if the value of these things is lower than the cost of HS2, why do you think it's good value for money?
(I'm not saying the value is actually less, but if we're assuming the value is less) to reduce car usage, we need the extra capacity and if HS2 is the most cost effective way to do that then it should be done. We may need to take steps which aren't profitable, to reduce our impact on the environment
 

Clip

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Those factors are included in the £92bn of benefits, remember. They're not an added extra.

So if the value of these things is lower than the cost of HS2, why do you think it's good value for money?

If anything it keeps people in highly specialized work which, through tax receipts, goes back to the chancellor to spend on other things.
 
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Tetchytyke

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We may need to take steps which aren't profitable, to reduce our impact on the environment

Interestingly the Green Party, Greenpeace and Friends of the Earth are against HS2 because they believe it to be hugely environmentally destructive. As do Extinction Rebellion. They have a point, given how much historic woodland they are proposing to bulldoze.

I'm not convinced the green angle works as a justification either, if I'm honest. Bulldozing the Chilterns isn't reducing our environmental footprint.
 

Ianno87

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No, and you know fine well I'm not. Stop being disingenuous.

Crewe is where HS2 will end, and so the alleged benefits for Liverpool, Chester, North Wales, the Wirral, Warrington, Wigan, Preston, Southport, Blackburn, Burnley, Lancaster, Blackpool, Carlisle and Cumbria, Dumfries and Galloway, Lanarkshire and Glasgow are all predicated on the journey time from London to Crewe.

The BCR of 1.1 is based on 18tph and 360km/h running, but we're not going to get either. HS2's OWN ESTIMATES are that reducing to 14tph will reduce the benefits by 24% but only reduce cost by 6%. HS2 now estimate they will only run 14tph and at 300km/h. Where does this leave HS2?

A BCR of less than 1, remember, means we'd be better off finsncially not doing something.

The Jubilee Line extension had a BCR less than one during times in its developmemt. It was just strategically the right thing to do to stimulate Docklands regeneration. And look at it now.
 

The Ham

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No, and you know fine well I'm not. Stop being disingenuous.

Crewe is where HS2 will end, and so the alleged benefits for Liverpool, Chester, North Wales, the Wirral, Warrington, Wigan, Preston, Southport, Blackburn, Burnley, Lancaster, Blackpool, Carlisle and Cumbria, Dumfries and Galloway, Lanarkshire and Glasgow are all predicated on the journey time from London to Crewe.

The BCR of 1.1 is based on 18tph and 360km/h running, but we're not going to get either. HS2's OWN ESTIMATES are that reducing to 14tph will reduce the benefits by 24% but only reduce cost by 6%. HS2 now estimate they will only run 14tph and at 300km/h. Where does this leave HS2?

A BCR of less than 1, remember, means we'd be better off finsncially not doing something.

However, even you look at the passenger numbers for many of those stations listed and they aren't particularly large.

Other than in the letter, is there a source for the 24%?

The reason for asking is that it doesn't make sense. As I've pointed out even at a level of 14tph rather than 24tph that's 22.2% of London starting services.

Whilst I accept that an increased frequency does being benefits, I've already highlighted how it would be possible to:
- keep the frequency by splitting more services
- keep the frequency by running more services via Curzon Street (whilst that would slow down direct services which go that way you could actual reduce this impact by having more services connecting with fast London services at Crewe so as to still have a fairly fast journey time, maybe only allowing things down by about 5 minutes).

Whilst having a slower journey would have an impact on passenger numbers it's going to be less of an impact than a lower frequency.

As although many people do want a direct service many also want a frequent service and will be willing to try for a faster journey (as long as the risk of our being slower is limited) of that's an option.

As an example of you've just missed a direct service and the next direct service is in 30 minutes time, but you can get another train in 5 minutes time which gets you to a stop asking the line where you can then meet another train which gets you in to where you are going 15 minutes faster then people will use it. Especially if the direct service also calls at the change station so if the expected train doesn't turn up you aren't held up as you can still get in the direct train.

Anyway it all comes back to the point how well is existing rail growth doing compared to that expected, as this post of mine on another thread highlights we are ahead of predictions for the time which has happened since the announcement, even allowing for changes from other modes and the "new" journeys:

Which would imply that it's not likely to be well used, on what basis so you suggest that this is the case?

Is it because the growth seen to date is way off from predictions, is so what does rail growth look like?

If I recall correctly the predictions were for (from 2009 when it was announced) growth of about 95% by the time of opening. (The corresponds with the ~90% extra capacity claimed to be created by RP2).

To reach this figure for the year of opening it equals 2.5% growth per year. This means that by 2018 (9 years after HS2 being announced in 2009, although it should be noted that the actual baseline in the HS2 documentation is 2008 so feel free to use either year) that the growth predicted would be 24.9%.

Given that the use of percentages can be used to argue things which are incorrect (as an extra 2% of 200 is more than an extra 3% of 100 in actual numbers) and some people find numbers which are very big hard to grasp for the sake of simplicity we'll covert the 2009 flows to a baseline of 100.

Therefore growth would be seen as a number higher than 100 and a fall would be a number lower.

Therefore
100 baseline in 2009
195 full HS2 opening in 2036 (194.8 to be exact)

For growth to be on target rail growth would need to be 102.5 in 2010, 105 in 2011, 107.7 in 2012, 110.3 in 2014, etc.

Now because of compound growth the numbers will be higher than just adding 2.5 each year, as adding 10% to 100 (10) is more than adding 10% to 50 (5), so it is that as you see growth going up to achieve the same percentage increase you see more passengers needing to be added to the network.

That means to be on target rail growth between 2009 and 2018 would need to have increased from 100 to 125 (124.9).

Even to see growth so that is all railway passengers and doesn't include any shift from air or car, nor would it include the 25% of new trips the target would need to shift from 195 to 260.

That would give us a growth factor of 3.6% per year. Which would equate to 137 (137.49) in 2018 compared to our baseline of 100 in 2009.

The actual figures show that across the region's which will benefit from HS2 that the average figure is 149 when comparing rail travel between London to that region. (This is so that there's no accusation that the increase is due to split tickets inflating the results)

However for some regions, which includes those which benefit the most from phase 1, growth results in the figure being 170 when compared against the baseline of 100.

There's two important factors to highlight:
Between 2009 and 2018 there's been fairly limited capacity improvements to the ECML and MML, which would explain why the North East, East Midlands and Yorkshire and Humberside have seen lower growth than the West Midlands and the North West (who have seen the WCML upgrade and the lengthening of the 390's).
- To date there's been no increase in capacity or journey time improvements from HS2, nor is there likely to be significant growth due to the anticipation of HS2. However once Phase 1 opens then it is likely that there would be extra growth beyond the background growth.

From the 2018 figure of 149 to reach the enhanced target of 260 (which had needed 3.6% growth year on year) because of the growth seen to date this would need to be 3.2% growth year on year.

However as indicated that would include those switching from air travel, who I wouldn't expect a significant change from until there's speed improvements which won't be seen until HS2 is at least partly open and the full benefit won't be until HS2 is fully delivered.

Given that the accusation is that HS2 would be under used the other thing to consider is how busy HS2 would be compared to the predicted passenger numbers.

To do this we could change the baseline around, so that 2036 becomes the baseline with a figure of 100. That means that we can see how full HS2 services are likely to be compared to the predictions if HS2 were to be fully opened today.

Before I give that figure, and to give some context, if HS2 were to have opened in 2009 there would have been 38 passengers for every 100 expected in 2036.

Likewise, for a bit more context, based on the expected passenger numbers in 2018 it should have been 48.

Based on the 2018 numbers there would be 57 passengers for every 100 expected in 2036. As such, even with it being 18 years before the full HS2 project will be delivered, there's quite a hard case to justify HS2 as a White Elephant.

Especially when you consider that with 100 million passenger journeys it would be dealing with broadly the same number of passengers as Waterloo, a similar number of passengers as the airports of Luton & Heathrow combined or over 5% of all rail travel seen in 2018.

For full disclosure, and so people can use actual numbers to create an argument against what I've said here's the ORR data which I've used for the advice argument:

View media item 3340
P.S. for the benefit of the Moderators; I'd suggest that this is on topic of the name for HS2, as the suggestion was that it should be called a White Elephant, and I'm suggesting that to do so you would need to explain why it would be considered as such and putting the case for why it shouldn't be.

Is what I say in that post correct or not?

If not where have I made an error?

If I've not made an error and we're on track to hit the target even without people changing from air and car to HS2 after HS2 is built, then can you explain how we are going to see a 24% reduction in benefits?

You're telling us to question what HS2 says, here's something which you state comes from HS2 (although I'm not aware of our other than through a third party unless you have evidence otherwise) so I'm questioning it.
 

The Ham

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Interestingly the Green Party, Greenpeace and Friends of the Earth are against HS2 because they believe it to be hugely environmentally destructive. As do Extinction Rebellion. They have a point, given how much historic woodland they are proposing to bulldoze.

I'm not convinced the green angle works as a justification either, if I'm honest. Bulldozing the Chilterns isn't reducing our environmental footprint.

Excluding e CO2e emissions from traffic or strategic road network creates 0.33 million tonnes per year, HS2 has a 120 year maintenance emission of 0.31 million tonnes.

Now whilst it's possible that the emissions from maintenance of the road network will fall, most such reductions would likely also be of benefit to the maintenance of HS2.

Even allowing for the building of HS2, 1.45 million tonnes (or 4.7 years of strategic road network of maintenance) it's still fairly low, and there's an argument that it's better to close parts of the motorway network and open HS2 so that the gross emissions* remain broadly the same for the building/maintenance part.

Then overall the emissions would be much lower, as not only are trains more energy efficient than cars, but also the carbon reduction measures being put in place by HS2 would reduce things further.

One of the problems with a lot of the group's listed is that they want the perfect solution and this often means that they won't accept something which would make things significantly better. Even if this means that nothing changes and things are actually worse than they could have been.
 

PartyOperator

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The green movement starts from an ideological opposition to complex, centrally planned technologies of all kinds - this sometimes coincides with what is best for the environment but often doesn't. Labour are more keen on central planning and likewise see the climate crisis as an opportunity to change society rather than simply a problem to be solved. Labour's support for HS2 and the Greens' opposition both arise more out of dogma than a genuine evaluation of the environmental impacts (although I'm sure many in both groups mean well). If the Conservatives support it, they do so for economic rather than environmental reasons.

In the UK, many of the policies that have historically had the greatest positive consequences for the environment were motivated by political concerns unrelated to the environment, while many policies that have come from the green side will do very little for CO2 emissions. It's not terribly encouraging, but does reflect the low priority the environment has had in politics.
 

Alex McKenna

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If they had BCR's and associated bean-counters back in Roman or Victorian times would we have any roads at all? Or railways?
 

The Nomad

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Interestingly the Green Party, Greenpeace and Friends of the Earth are against HS2 because they believe it to be hugely environmentally destructive. As do Extinction Rebellion. They have a point, given how much historic woodland they are proposing to bulldoze.

I'm not convinced the green angle works as a justification either, if I'm honest. Bulldozing the Chilterns isn't reducing our environmental footprint.

Extinction Rebellion aren't that bright. After their protest in Leeds city centre I watched them cleaning up what they'd written on the road with a pressure washer powered by a 2-stroke petrol engine. Now there's something that's "hugely environmentally destructive".
 

Speed43125

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Extinction Rebellion aren't that bright. After their protest in Leeds city centre I watched them cleaning up what they'd written on the road with a pressure washer powered by a 2-stroke petrol engine. Now there's something that's "hugely environmentally destructive".
People like you seem to miss the whole point of a protest. It's to garner coverage and support for a cause. Most people don't bat two eyelids when the Hong Kong protesters damage stuff because they are trying to draw attention to a cause. Extinction Rebellion are trying to get the message out. How a particular council chooses to remove slogans from them is not their issue.
While I am in favour of HS2, I can completely see E.R.'s point of view on this and in fact most of their stuff.
Disruption is bad, but it's also newsworthy, that's why they do it. The supposed environmental benefit of shutting down heathrow unexpectedly for two hours isn't the point, it would be the new coverage that matters to them.
 

Bald Rick

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If they had BCR's and associated bean-counters back in Roman or Victorian times would we have any roads at all? Or railways?

They didn’t have BCRs in Victorian times, it was all done purely on a financial basis. Ie build to make money.
 

PeterC

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They didn’t have BCRs in Victorian times, it was all done purely on a financial basis. Ie build to make money.
And plenty of lines built at that time were economic basket cases.

From my point of view HS2 is the least worse solution to the capacity problems on the southern part of the WCML.
 
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