Clearly the current Government, the two Cameron ones before that, and the Brown government, were all not adverse to embarrassing potential future headlines! The current one isn't even adverse to embarrassing current headlines!
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Why are people opposed to HS2? (And other HS2 discussion)
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The problem with trains in this country is east-west and not north-south.
Traveling to London from most of the country by rail is fine. The only issue is capacity due to everything being centred around London, so decentralising is the answer, not empowering London further.
Build a line from north west to north east and improve connectivity in South West.
Traveling to London from most of the country by rail is fine. The only issue is capacity due to everything being centred around London, so decentralising is the answer, not empowering London further.
Build a line from north west to north east and improve connectivity in South West.
If anyone wishes to propose suggestions for alternative rail provision feel free to make those suggestions in this forum: https://www.railforums.co.uk/forums/speculative-ideas.172/
kevin_roche
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I think the solution is to rename it High Capacity Rail. Capacity is the issue, not speed, though it also makes no sense to build a slow line.
Geezertronic
Established Member
What people say in the background and what they would do in power are usually two completely different things... and who are you referring to out of interest?
DynamicSpirit
Established Member
I agree with ForTheLoveOf's reply about this.
I totally agree that we should not be slashing the numbers of bus routes. However, even so, comparing HS2 with bus subsidies is not a reasonable comparison because money spent on subsidising bus routes is current spending. It's money that's gone as soon as you've spent it and there's nothing long term to show for it. The following year you need to spend the same money again to keep those bus routes going. On the other hand, money spent building HS2 is capital spending: It's a huge one-off spend, and at the end of it, you have a brand new railway to show for it which will keep running (and actually, is very likely to make an operating profit) for decades into the future.
As for route duplication... It won't be route duplication as the purposes are different. Once HS2 is built, it will be the route used for long distance services into London. The existing WCML will be the route used for commuter services into London, and doubtless some long distance services whose purpose is to link places such as Watford and Milton Keynes etc. to the Midlands and North. That is not route duplication, that is two different lines being used for two completely different purposes. (And both lines are likely to be full to capacity too)
That is just tin-foil conspiracy theory with no basis in fact.
Johnson and Rees Mogg have said as much, but I'm not in the slightest bit clear that those two individuals are in any kind of running at this particular moment in the rollercoaster ride of Tory party intrigue within the current maelstrom of British politics.
squizzler
Established Member
Its alright for them to make such off-the-cuff bleatings, but there would be uproar in the north if the only big ticket, non-London centric infrastructure got indefinitely delayed. Politically too difficult, methinks.
HS2 is not "non-London".
The phrase used was "non London centric" however.
By the way, welcome back to this subject.
LOL The Irony
On Moderation
I think squizzler means HS3/NPHR/insert whatever it's called this week.
I have been hovering my finger over the unsubscribe button since coming back heh.
Have Johnson et al made any 'off the cuff bleatings' about such a project? No? Then it's not about that, is it.
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Boris, as MP for Henley, was against Crossrail - after all, it removed the direct constituency - London train service.
Boris, as Mayor of London, was all for Crossrail - after all it helped his constituency greatly
Boris, as MP for Uxbridge and South Ruislip, is against HS2 - after all it carves through his constituency and doesn't seem to benefit them much
Boris, as Prime Minister of the United Kingdom, is ...
DynamicSpirit
Established Member
Last time I checked, HS2 phase 1/2a runs for about 180 miles, only about 15 miles of which are in London.
HS2 phase 2b comprises two branches and a lot of mileage, none of which runs anywhere near London.
squizzler
Established Member
I just dont buy the argument that London is the only benificiary of HSR. That argument seems a bit too contrived to follow the 'brexit' narrative that it is all the fault of those dastardly 'Liberal Metropolitan Elites (TM)'. Who all live in London.
Too bad if it turns out true for those reasons after all, maybe we would have paid attention if we had not already had our fill of 'Populist' (did George Orwell invent that label?) crying wolf.
60% of benefits from HS2 would be for regions outside London (as cited by The Economics Foundation, who are opposed to HS2, so there's little reason to doubt their numbers, unless they are over egging the London numbers), including something like 3% for the South West (which is an area miles from HS2).
Having skim read the alternitve for HS2 report by The Economics Foundation their grand plan is the rail package and then other improvements across the network.
The problem is that since 2009 when HS2 was announced rail growth has already increased by 70% for London/West Midlands and London/North West, rail package only provided for up to 100% increase. As such there's not much more scope beyond that.
Also the report ignores the fact that "other" rail enhancements are ongoing (~£6bn last year) and so probably a fair amount of the other schemes they suggest may happen in the timeframe of HS2 or don't justify happening.
It's effectively more of the same without giving a viable long term solution.
The problem is that since 2009 when HS2 was announced rail growth has already increased by 70% for London/West Midlands and London/North West, rail package only provided for up to 100% increase. As such there's not much more scope beyond that.
Also the report ignores the fact that "other" rail enhancements are ongoing (~£6bn last year) and so probably a fair amount of the other schemes they suggest may happen in the timeframe of HS2 or don't justify happening.
It's effectively more of the same without giving a viable long term solution.
Andrew1395
Member
One way to build on the extra capacity benefit of HS2 would be some parallel spending to improve the classic WCML infrastructure. For example Watford junction (busier than Nottingham), needs significant investment to improve the platform areas, bigger concourse and circulation areas. I am sure there are many more.
Geezertronic
Established Member
That's the thing though. HS2 or not, there is still a lot of investment still being made on the classic network
Indeed, ~£6bn last year (Enhancements) and ~£25bn since 2009. Along with the works programmed for CP6.
If anything, HS2 support doing modest stuff on parallel routes dy diverting passengers away, onto HS2.
There is no doubt that upgrade work is required on the WCML but I suspect that it wouldn't be able to happen at scale until HS2 is completed
quantinghome
Established Member
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Indeed. Wasn't it a manager in Network Rail who said the first thing they would have to do when HS2 opened was rebuild the WCML due to the hammering it currently receives?
Depending on where the works are they could be started before the whole of HS2 is completed. For instance once phase 1 is complete Watford Junction could see works.
The Planner
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Nothing to stop works happening whenever they are ready to go, the WCML will still see plenty of blocks irrespective of HS2 construction.
Yes, that's what I meant. Once HS2 is open then that will allow major works on the southern end of the WCML by using HS2 to divert capacity allowing the WCML work to be done quicker.
But what's the point of improving the station if you can't improve the services?
We have had numerous threads for north vs south investment discussion and there is an ongoing a thread to discuss Brexit.
This thread is not to discuss either of those things; I will leave it open a bit longer to see if we can get back on topic. But if there's nothing new to say that is on topic, it will be locked.
This thread is not to discuss either of those things; I will leave it open a bit longer to see if we can get back on topic. But if there's nothing new to say that is on topic, it will be locked.
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