Why aren't all lines electrified?

[HSTEd]

That's another factor. Business cases for the UK government are supposed to use a discount rate of 3.5% over 60 years IIRC.

Which means the interest payments will in fact dwarf the payments on the capital.
Which means slight variations on this rate have significant effects on the result.
It also depends on what your projections of inflation are like.
3.5% nominal is reasonable but as well all know, the benefits ascribed to the scheme will in crease in real terms. So it all gets very confusing.

 

[cjmillsnun]

May I be pedantic please? ICCP - Impressed Current Cathodic Protection will deal with that, Galvanized steel - zinc coating -is cathodic protection - it is SACP - Sacrificial Anode Cathodic Protection.

Galvanising is NOT SACP. Galvanising is a coating. SACP is a small removable piece of metal that is attached and is designed to corrode away. You'll find if undisturbed, the Zn coating on galvanised steel barely corrodes, itself, even after a decade.

In the industry I work in many of our assets (high pressure gas transmission pipes) use either ICCP or SACD.

 

[najaB]

You'll find if undisturbed, the Zn coating on galvanised steel barely corrodes, itself, even after a decade.

But it does corrode, rather than the steel. So it is a sacrificial anode, just a very large one in comparison to the material it's protecting.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Galvanising is NOT SACP.

I beg to differ.

Galvanising is a coating.

Agreed

SACP is a small removable piece of metal that is attached and is designed to corrode away.

Usually.

You'll find if undisturbed, the Zn coating on galvanised steel barely corrodes, itself, even after a decade.

Not if you examine by XRF/XRD/SEM and SIMS

The holidays fill up with corrosion products. Principally zinc hydroxide and zinc carbonate.

In the industry I work in many of our assets (high pressure gas transmission pipes) use either ICCP or SACD.

Yes often Zinc based but if on dry land they will use a magnesium alloy because of the very high driving voltage. Mg is -2.34 volts wrt Standard Hydrogen of 0.00 or Fe at -0.44 volts. Al is used on North Sea oil rigs because of the high anode capacity - almost 3000 amp.hours per kg. Would be happy to derive from 1sr principles if required. [/QUOTE]

But it does corrode, rather than the steel. So it is a sacrificial anode, just a very large one in comparison to the material it's protecting.

Exactly!

Graham A. Howarth BSc(Hons); MSc (distinction), DIC C.Chem FRSC, FTSC, MIM, MICorr
Masters in The Corrosion of Engineering Materials at Imperial College London
40 years in the Coatings and steel industry

 

[deltic08]

I beg to differ.
Agreed

Usually.

Not if you examine by XRF/XRD/SEM and SIMS

The holidays fill up with corrosion products. Principally zinc hydroxide and zinc carbonate.

Yes often Zinc based but if on dry land they will use a magnesium alloy because of the very high driving voltage. Mg is -2.34 volts wrt Standard Hydrogen of 0.00 or Fe at -0.44 volts. Al is used on North Sea oil rigs because of the high anode capacity - almost 3000 amp.hours per kg. Would be happy to derive from 1sr principles if required.


Exactly!

Graham A. Howarth BSc(Hons); MSc (distinction), DIC C.Chem FRSC, FTSC, MIM, MICorr
Masters in The Corrosion of Engineering Materials at Imperial College London
40 years in the Coatings and steel industry

Graham, in my earlier post I spoke of electricity pylons on my family farm that have been untouched for 75 years with no corrosion. As the bolts are also covered with a grey gritty anti corrosion substance as rough as sandpaper, I assumed they were painted as something that big could not be dipped complete. What is the likely treatment in the 1930s and why haven't OLE supports been treated similarly?

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Graham, in my earlier post I spoke of electricity pylons on my family farm that have been untouched for 75 years with no corrosion. As the bolts are also covered with a grey gritty anti corrosion substance as rough as sandpaper, I assumed they were painted as something that big could not be dipped complete. What is the likely treatment in the 1930s and why haven't OLE supports been treated similarly?

Highly likely to be a zinc rich coating - literally a paint with metallic zinc in - so similar principles to galvanising. In those days Britain still ruled the world so there would be no penny pinching. A nice thick zinc rich coating would have been applied.

 

[QueensCurve]

The holidays fill up with corrosion products.

The present holiday is about as rusty as i gets!

 

[mbonwick]

Who would have thought there'd be so many Materials specialists on here? Have to say as a lowly masters student in Materials Engineering there's not much new I can bring to this discussion...

 

[jopsuk]

Why when discussing the efficiency of traction energy sources (be it road or rail) are "transmission losses" and the cost of infrastructure always brought up for electric power, yet not for fossil fuels? Petrol tankers don't run on fairy dust and roads are far from free!

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Who would have thought there'd be so many Materials specialists on here? Have to say as a lowly masters student in Materials Engineering there's not much new I can bring to this discussion...

Oh you can - but you knew that already

 

[edwin_m]

Why when discussing the efficiency of traction energy sources (be it road or rail) are "transmission losses" and the cost of infrastructure always brought up for electric power, yet not for fossil fuels? Petrol tankers don't run on fairy dust and roads are far from free!

I think these are included but are actually fairly small for fossil fuels - after all the fuel tank of the tanker is a lot less than the payload. Refining losses may be more significant though.

The thing many people seem to ignore is that hydrogen isn't actually an energy source, just a means of storing and transporting energy. A good deal less efficient than an electric transmission line and probably less efficient than fossil fuels too - it needs electricity to come from largely carbon-free sources to be worth doing.

 

[HSTEd]

Something like 15% of the energy value of the crude oil is dispersed in the refinery.
But that includes plastics and the like.

For diesel the losses come out comparable to electricity.

 

[najaB]

Something like 15% of the energy value of the crude oil is dispersed in the refinery.
But that includes plastics and the like.

For diesel the losses come out comparable to electricity.

I've seen 10% loss quoted for the extraction process.

 

[UrbanWorld]

The trains themselves are cheaper to build and more efficient when running, but there is a lot of cost in all the equipment to get the electricity from the power station to the rain, which diesel trains do not have.

Taunton, there is the cost of getting diesel from refinery to the tanks in rail sheds as well.

The 3rd rail, extensively used south of London and in a few other places, was quite cheap to install, but overhead wires are something else, they generally don't fit under the bridges and tunnels without a lot of work, and the engineering costs of putting it in can be very substantial, and in a few places impossible.

3rd rail can be installed under bridges and tunnels and duel voltage trains used to avoid civil engineering works. It is balancing the costs of the extra pickups against the civil side of bridge and tunnel construction. If there are many bridges and tunnels then the extra pickup is viable.

Container only trains are suitable for overhead wires. In some container terminals the wagons are shunted, so do not need overhead wires interfering with cargo handling.

 

[HSTEd]

You can also use solid contact rails that can be shifted out of the way once the train is stopped in the loading dock.

 

[deltic08]

Highly likely to be a zinc rich coating - literally a paint with metallic zinc in - so similar principles to galvanising. In those days Britain still ruled the world so there would be no penny pinching. A nice thick zinc rich coating would have been applied.

Many thanks.

 

[UrbanWorld]

You can also use solid contact rails that can be shifted out of the way once the train is stopped in the loading dock.

Electric overhead wires were used at Garston Docks in Liverpool when they started to use containers in the 1960s. If I recall rightly they initially used diesel shunters to move the trains to load and unload containers. In a large container handling installation shunters are not a big expense.

 

[edwin_m]

Electric overhead wires were used at Garston Docks in Liverpool when they started to use containers in the 1960s. If I recall rightly they initially used diesel shunters to move the trains to load and unload containers. In a large container handling installation shunters are not a big expense.

I agree it's either a diesel loco or the electric runs round outside the terminal then pushes the train in to where the wires end just before the hardstanding. You can see the run-round loop for this arrangement at Tilbury for example.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

You can also use solid contact rails that can be shifted out of the way once the train is stopped in the loading dock.

I don't think this is used in the UK. It would be reasonably easy to do for something like a hopper loading silo, where only one wagon's worth of contact bar would need to move clear. Much more difficult for a container terminal where loading can take place anywhere along the train length and even when retracted the bar would be an obstruction to the movement of lifted containers and passing road vehicles.

 

[goatie]

OHLE costs a lot of money, and so the government (whatever colour) and the railway bosses want big projects that they can sell to the public,
instead of putting the wires up, to Cardiff (big show project) they should infill all the lines from Anglia, to ECML and WCML then we can get away from most of the DTU's

 

[apk55]

Many future electric locos probaby will have a small diesel built in for shunting off line. The class 88 could be the first of many.
This engine would also enable them to self rescue in event of power failure and may also work engineering trains etc.

 

[341o2]

Why were the Southern Railway so keen upon electrified lines in comparison to the other large railway companies?

competition from electric trams forced the Southern to respond likewise,

 

[edwin_m]

competition from electric trams forced the Southern to respond likewise,

The LMS, LNER and GWR had reasonably lucrative long-distance passenger and freight traffic into London, so commuter traffic was a bit of a sideshow for them and in some ways they wouldn't have been too bothered if it had disappeared. The Southern had far less long-distance traffic because of the shorter distances between London and the coast, so without the commuter traffic it would have ceased to exist. The same applies to the Tilbury line and the GE network, and it probably isn't a coincidence that these were the busiest commuter services north of the Thames and were also electrified fairly early.

Another factor is that the Underground served many of the northern suburbs but had very little mileage south of the Thames. This was partly cause and partly effect, with the LNER willing to hand over many of its suburban routes to the Central and Northern lines but the Southern blocking the extension of the Northern line southwards from Morden.

 

[QueensCurve]

In 30-50 years time, diesel fuel will become so rare and expensive that the rail network will have to become electrified. If not, then the rail network will be slashed so greatly it would look as if the Beeching cuts of the 60's was minor.

I know that this view is mighty unpopular in these forums, but I'd rather the monies spent on HS-2 was spent on electrifying the greater part of the UK rail network to something akin to the Swiss model. The operative word is "greater", not all.

Nothing would please me more than seeing all of Britain' railways electrified on the Swiss model. Switzerland's motives however were strategic/military rather than purely economic since Switzerland could be self-sufficient in traction current but was dependent on other countries for imports of coal/oil.

Whether diesel fuel will become such a high cost commodity depends on when (if ever) we pass "peak oil". Forecasts of oil production are skewed towards known resources and, so far, new resources have been found which mean that oil production remains high many years after it was forecast to run dry.

I personally would also prefer to see incremental improvements on the present railway (as Switzerland has done in recent years) rather than "HS2" which I see as the wrong project on the wrong route. HS2 is, I am sad to say a political vanity product sold to politicians daft enough to believe you can run 18 trains per hour at high speed on a 2 track railway.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

OHLE costs a lot of money, and so the government (whatever colour) and the railway bosses want big projects that they can sell to the public,
instead of putting the wires up, to Cardiff (big show project) they should infill all the lines from Anglia, to ECML and WCML then we can get away from most of the DTU's

You can get a flavour of this with the proposal for the "Electric Spine" from Southampton to Sheffield (not reaching the ECML).

More sensible would be the infil electrifications needed to connect Felixtowe to the WCML.

 

[NotATrainspott]

Nothing would please me more than seeing all of Britain' railways electrified on the Swiss model. Switzerland's motives however were strategic/military rather than purely economic since Switzerland could be self-sufficient in traction current but was dependent on other countries for imports of coal/oil.

Whether diesel fuel will become such a high cost commodity depends on when (if ever) we pass "peak oil". Forecasts of oil production are skewed towards known resources and, so far, new resources have been found which mean that oil production remains high many years after it was forecast to run dry.

I personally would also prefer to see incremental improvements on the present railway (as Switzerland has done in recent years) rather than "HS2" which I see as the wrong project on the wrong route. HS2 is, I am sad to say a political vanity product sold to politicians daft enough to believe you can run 18 trains per hour at high speed on a 2 track railway.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


You can get a flavour of this with the proposal for the "Electric Spine" from Southampton to Sheffield (not reaching the ECML).

More sensible would be the infil electrifications needed to connect Felixtowe to the WCML.

How on earth do they cope with 24 trains per hour on Thameslink?

 

[Haydn1971]

I personally would also prefer to see incremental improvements on the present railway (as Switzerland has done in recent years) rather than "HS2" which I see as the wrong project on the wrong route.

Incremental ? As in Gottard, Lötschberg and Zimmerberg Base Tunnels ?

...and just what do you see as the right project on the right route ?

 

[edwin_m]

HS2 is, I am sad to say a political vanity product sold to politicians daft enough to believe you can run 18 trains per hour at high speed on a 2 track railway.

Which bit exactly of the technical justification on the HS2 website do you disagree with?

 

[deltic08]

Adding more weight to the argument and business case for electrifying the West Highland line, I can report that apart from 3 stone arched overbridges, 2 short tunnels and a snow shelter, all other bridges between Craigendoran and Fort William are flat deck iron plate structures on stone abutments. There are various metal footbridges but these should easily be replaced.

Looking at the December 2014 West Highland timetable I see that the Deerstalker sleeper now runs via Queen Street LL. Can anybody please explain what route it travels between Edinburgh and QS LL? Thanks.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

It takes the Bathgate line.

 

[deltic08]

It takes the Bathgate line.

Thank you Peter. What a treat to travel non-stop from Edinburgh to QS LL via Bathgate and Airdrie in LHCS.

I assume wasteful diesel haulage under the wires for 70 miles to West Highland Junction?

 

[NotATrainspott]

Thank you Peter. What a treat to travel non-stop from Edinburgh to QS LL via Bathgate and Airdrie in LHCS.

I assume wasteful diesel haulage under the wires for 70 miles to West Highland Junction?

Yes. There's not a lot of point in using an electric locomotive when the only reasonable switchover place is Dumbarton Central, which is well in EMU-land and hasn't got the track in place for any special electric locomotive movements. The amount of diesel used for those 70 miles is pitiful compared to the amount wasted by other diesel haulage under the wires elsewhere.