Why did Southern Rail dismiss me?

[sw18david]

I was recruited as a gateline assistant by Ontrak for Southern Rail and started at East Grinstead in September 2011. On 16th November I had an argument with the platform assistant which led to my being called to Oxted station for a disciplinary interview with M the duty manager. After hearing my account of the argument he asked me to put my account in writing and said he would ask the platform assistant to do the same. He said he would then investigate any issues that needed to be addressed. Two weeks later, with no information about any investigation, I was told by Ontrak that my employment was terminated. Because Southern Rail havent bothered giving me any explanation I invite the forum to suggest why.

To help you I enclose the evidence I gave to M on 17th Novermber.

Background.
When H [platform assistant] started his first shift at East Grinstead with me on gateline - monday? -he drew to my attention aspects of my work practice which he didnt think were satisfactory. He is absolutely entitled to his opinion and I would have to agree that there are aspects that I have to address.

Having worked with several Platform Assistants H's approach was at first a bit of a shock to me but after that initial shock I adapted and I think we worked together fine.

Events of wednesday evening
On wednesday evening I was on the gateline when a guard came off the incoming train and made his way to the station concourse. It is a particular issue with me where guards invite themselves to the unpaid side to sell tickets where there is no need to do so. In this instance there was no queue at the ticket office and plenty of time before the train departed and therefore no call on the guard to sell tickets. I then watched as the guard proceeded to stand in front of the ticket window. From that point any customers coming into the concourse assumed that they had to buy tickets from him rather than the ticket office.

After the guard had gone back to the train H came out of the ticket office. I asked him if he thought the guards behaviour was acceptable. Very quickly the conversation became heated and its hard for me to remember what exactly was said. I remember H asserting that there was no difference between a ticket being sold by a guard and a ticket being sold by the ticket office. I remember saying that maybe we should ask the management if he was correct on the policy of guards selling on the unpaid side. I believe H responded that I should address my own conduct before worrying about the conduct of others.

At some point H decided to make a phone call asking for management intervention. I dont know why he decided this was appropriate. As I said at our meeting at Oxted on wednesday evening my reaction was to fear the worse. I felt vulnerable for my job and I would say I became distressed. As I said to you I pretty much concluded at that moment that I was likely to lose my job - especially when K came out of the ticket office and said I was to get on the next train to Oxted to go to see the manager. I apologise for my conduct after that point. H can answer for himself if it was necessary to escalate our difference of opinion in such a manner, I will answer for myself why I reacted as I did.

The actions I took were to go into the mess room where I knew H was. Undoubtedly I was agitated. I asked him if he was happy to be costing me my job. I said that if that was how he wanted to live his life he had only himself to answer to. I told him that I had a low opinion of him as a person. I used a word at that point which doesnt need repeating.

I then went to K at the ticket office and said it had been nice working here but H has just cost me my job. I was agitated. I then got on to the next train to Oxted.

Conclusions
The day after I have come to these conclusions.

Do elements of my working practice need addressing? Probably. I enjoy the job and take the customer services and revenue protection aspects seriously. If I need to change how I do things I will do so.

Is H right to say that there is no difference between a ticket sold by a guard and a ticket sold by the ticket office? I dont think so. The guards get a commission on ticket sales. This is meant to be an incentive for them to maximise revenue. Taking ticket sales away from the ticket office doesnt maximise revenue, it costs Southern Rail money. It is not enough to say the guards have asked permission to sell tickets as this permission is always granted whether there is a need for the guard to sell tickets or not.

Can I work with H? I respect the fact that people I work with will have different opinions and different ways of working. I will pay attention to how these differences have the potential to cause conflict. It would not be satisfactory for me to say I cant work with H. It is not up to me who I work with and I should be able to work with anybody Southern Rail chooses. My problem with H is his action of getting management involvement in these issues in the way he did.

 

[Donny Dave]

My advice is that you appeal this decision in writing, but unfortunately, I don't think you stand a chance.

While I'm not the greatest legal expert on the forum (others will be able to give better and/or clearer advice), I can say from my experience, that contracts to state that you will be on a probationary period (usually 3 months) from your start date. This is so employers can assess you and see if you are suitable for the job.

From what I've seen in your post, you were still in this 3 month period, and because of your disagreement with another worker, I'm guessing that your employers will have deemed you as unacceptable for a customer facing role.

Sorry I can't be of further help.

 

[Dave A]

I imagine there's better people on here who can be of assistance from a legal side, but from a realistic side (and 2 years as a union rep); there's nothing you can do.

For a start, being a contract worker, you'll find you don't have many (if any) of the same rights as a full time staff member, whether its written that you do, or not, if they want you out, you're out.

It also sounds like "H" is allowed to to sell tickets where they please while on duty. If this is the case, then they have done nothing wrong, so you've started a needless argument.

Furthermore, "H" is in a "Safety Critical" role, therefore you swearing at them (as far as I can tell from "used a word which doesn't need repeating" ) could potentially put them in distress, causing them to be distracted from their duties (something considered very serious from a safety point of view). Also, if it was unprovoked, swearing could be considered assault.

And finally, as David has already mentioned, you aren't suitable for a customer facing role in their eyes if you get into disagreements easily, therefore you'd be let go under a general contractual obligation.

My personal opinion on this is (meant with respect): You've quite simply over-stepped your boundaries. There was no need for you to worry about what "H" was doing in the first place, and you certainly shouldn't of taken it up personally if you have an issue.

Company's have a hierarchy and procedures in place for a reason. If the guard was doing something wrong, and you were genuinely worried about it, you should have taken it up with a manager under the correct procedures.

While I can think of technicalities that may (very slightly) help your cause, I don't think it's worth it. Take it on the chin, learn from the mistakes and move on.

P.S. Just to remind you that this is a public forum. I wouldn't use names of people or company's in something like this, as I believe it can lead to "slander" (something you could be taken to court for).

P.P.S. If you do decide to fight this, you'll need to take it up with the agency that hired you by the sounds of it, not the TOC. They work on behalf of the TOC and will have made the decision to let you go.

 

[driver9000]

A public forum is not the place for this. The issue is between you and Southern/Ontrack, it is not for us to make judgement on this.

If you aren't already aware, some TOCs look in on forums so tread wisely.

 

[LCC106]

I work in HR and can confirm that the 3-month probationary period, whilst useful to see whether the employee fits the company and vice versa, has no standing in law.

An employer can dismiss someone within the first 12 months of employment without having to give a written reason. This is risky if the employee believes it to be related to a disability / their sex / sexual orientation / religious beliefs and other protected characteristics.

So yes, I would suggest you appeal the decision to dismiss in writing. Your letter should give the reasons you believe the dismissal to be unfair. You could also ask within the letter the reason for dismissal. It may or may not get you anywhere, but if it was me fighting for my job I'd definitely appeal.

Not sure if it's appropriate to post the phone number on here, but I suggest you give the ACAS helpline a call. Also Google ACAS disciplinary and grievance for a link to a booklet that may be useful to you.

As has been mentioned above, if you were a contract worker you should probably liaise with the agency. If you were an employee of the TOC then it is advisable to contact them direct.

Hope this adds something useful to the info already given above...

 

[RJ]

I've only been in the working world for four years. Even I know that if something that does not concern you goes on, you don't get involved. By all means, voice your opinion in an inquisitive manner. If this fails, report it if you feel you must.

There will be a manager somewhere who is being paid (often more) to enforce decisions on incorrect practices. It's not the place of an frontline operative to confront another colleague in the manner you described, especially if you're sub-contracted.

Now, I used to work in a ticket office that overlooked the gateline. The gateline RPIs would come and stand by the office and sell tickets if it was busy. Similarly at Marylebone, I have bought a ticket off an RPI with a machine before going through the barriers instead of the ticket office. Nothing to suggest it's not allowed. In your case, you should have told the manager. They might have laughed it off and said "the guard probably wants extra commision for Christmas." They might have wanted to do something about it. Either way, it's their call.

I have been in a situation where I've seen practices which I know 100% for a fact were incorrect with regards to selling tickets. However, because colleagues were not happy with me for conflicting their practices and managers were abjectly skeptical of what I was saying, I did the right thing and got it escalated to the one manager at the HQ who specialised in ticketing. He was able to confirm that I was indeed correct and a brief/bulletin was issued to all relevant retail/revenue staff. I was the youngest person there with the shortest length of service, but after that, I earnt respect and praise from those in grades higher than me, for having the knowledge and persisting with going through the correct channels despite no one else locally agreeing with me.

If you have a grievance, you never, ever descend into unprofessional conflict as that will never end positively. Put it down to experience - and think before doing or saying anything that might affect your ability to put food on the table.

 

[pendolino]

What has the issue of guards selling tickets got to do with you, a gateline assistant employed by an agency?

I think driver9000's got it spot on, this has no place on here (or any other internet forum), it's between you and Ontrack/Southern.

 

[Old Timer]

What has the issue of guards selling tickets got to do with you, a gateline assistant employed by an agency?

I think driver9000's got it spot on, this has no place on here (or any other internet forum), it's between you and Ontrack/Southern.

I did make a report post on that point when this first appeared but it seems to have been to no avail.

Personally I feel a lot written on here would really be best dealt with by being removed before it causes trouble as I have no doubt at all that when the individuals find their names or references that will identify them being used on a public Forum, they will be far from happy.

 

[LCC106]

@pendolino @Old Timer @RJ I agree that it was inappropriate to post in so much detail, especially since people can potentially be identified, but the guy is a first time poster and has come here for some advice having lost his job. No matter whether his actions at work were in the wrong or the right Old Timer has flagged it up, the mods haven't yet acted on it, but give him a break!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Maybe the mods might wish to lock the thread / remove / whatever they see fit.

 

[HH]

Might be worth penning a letter to the MD as well as a normal appeal. I doubt that the practice would be condoned at the highest levels, even if local management are happy to turn a blind eye.

 

[Urban Gateline]

I think the OP's grief stems from jealousy of the Guard earning commission on tickets sold! I personally don't see anything wrong with Guards selling tickets at stations if they have time, it can definitely be helpful when there is a demand for it.

In the OP's situation it is unfortunate that it was handled the wrong way, had the OP gone through the proper channels, he may still be in his job. There's nothing wrong with reporting something that you believe is wrong, but acting on it yourself when it's not your job to do so, is just asking for trouble!

 

[yorkie]

Thanks to all who reported this. It was removed and the OP advised against the publication of it. However the OP has chosen not to accept that advice. Obviously that then puts us in a difficult situation to decide whether or not to accept this, as it does not appear to break any rules. We therefore decided to reinstate it.

The OP did mention one name of someone who could be identified, this name has been removed.

I do not think that the OP can achieve anything by publishing this here. Arguing with colleagues in the circumstances described is extremely unwise and, whatever the rights or wrongs of the exact situation (which I do not want to get into), the potential for a negative consequence would surely be foreseeable.

I would encourage the OP to move on from this.

The actions I took were to go into the mess room where I knew H was. Undoubtedly I was agitated. I asked him if he was happy to be costing me my job. I said that if that was how he wanted to live his life he had only himself to answer to. I told him that I had a low opinion of him as a person. I used a word at that point which doesnt need repeating.

People can, and will, draw their own conclusions from this.

 

[choo~choo]

Sounds like you were causing waves for no reason other than jealousy of the guard touting for commission. What exactly does it have to do with you anyway? Sorry if it sounds blunt mate but you should use an agency position as a foot in the door to maybe get a permanent job, not cause problems. I doubt you'll get a leg to stand on with an appeal anyway.. I'm sure there are some positives to be taken from your experience

 

[ChrisTheRef]

I think from your own admission that there were parts of your working practise which needed addressing, along with the fact that this situation has come to light, you probably don't stand much of a chance.

 

[185]

this has no place on here (or any other internet forum), it's between you and Ontrack/Southern.

I disagree with others and to a degree think you were right to post this on here as many people here are railway staff, and the range of people can give a fair opinion of Southern Railway's decision. This kind of thing often gets hushed up too much IMO.

Do I think youre a muppet for sticking your nose in into the guards business?
Yes. Go to work, take youre wage, go home. Let the guard get caught of his own accord.

Do I think Southern Railway are cheating cowardly muppets for hiding behind the 'oh you're only a contractor' scam?
Yes. Oldest trick in the book and they don't belong on today's railway for using it.

Do I think to dismiss you on the basis of someone on a platforms say-so is wrong?
Yes. To sack someone and not consider an alternative is over-reacting and a sign of ill-informed HR people.

Do I think you should take this further?
Definately. Time to start climbing the ladder of people to contact, from Southern's HR Manager, then HR Director, Operations Director, MD, finally, parent company Govia.

 

[pendolino]

Do I think Southern Railway are cheating cowardly muppets for hiding behind the 'oh you're only a contractor' scam?
Yes. Oldest trick in the book and they don't belong on today's railway for using it.

Do I think to dismiss you on the basis of someone on a platforms say-so is wrong?
Yes. To sack someone and not consider an alternative is over-reacting and a sign of ill-informed HR people.

You're taking the OP very much at face value, you have no idea what the other side of the story might be or why he was instantly dismissed, contractor or not. Given that, as yorkie pointed out, there's an intimation of aggression and/or verbal abuse, the dismissal could well have been for gross misconduct. I don't know for certain that this is the case, but then neither do you know it isn't.

 

[richw]

A company has the right to terminate in the first 12 months of employment without giving reason. If as you say your performance wasn't up to scratch this incident may of been the final nail in your coffin as such.

Sent from my HTC Sensation Z710e using Tapatalk

 

[HH]

A company has the right to terminate in the first 12 months of employment without giving reason. If as you say your performance wasn't up to scratch this incident may of been the final nail in your coffin as such.

One is not covered by unfair dismissal legislation, but that's hardly the issue here.

Despite claims to the contrary Conductors are not employed to stand outside normally functioning ticket offices and sell tickets.

That most people would turn a blind eye to this behaviour (including myself) is also irrelevant. Our OP is a "whistle blower", and since the Whistle Blower Protection Act of 1997, they also enjoy rights.

 

[endemic]

.....

 

[Greenback]

One is not covered by unfair dismissal legislation, but that's hardly the issue here.

Despite claims to the contrary Conductors are not employed to stand outside normally functioning ticket offices and sell tickets.

That most people would turn a blind eye to this behaviour (including myself) is also irrelevant. Our OP is a "whistle blower", and since the Whistle Blower Protection Act of 1997, they also enjoy rights.

By virtue of what the OP has posted, it is not the whistle blowing act that was the reason for dismissal, but other aspects of their performance, including an aggressive and confrontational attitude towards colleagues.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

The actions I took were to go into the mess room where I knew H was. Undoubtedly I was agitated. I asked him if he was happy to be costing me my job. I said that if that was how he wanted to live his life he had only himself to answer to. I told him that I had a low opinion of him as a person. I used a word at that point which doesnt need repeating.

I then went to K at the ticket office and said it had been nice working here but H has just cost me my job. I was agitated. I then got on to the next train to Oxted.

Do elements of my working practice need addressing? Probably. I enjoy the job and take the customer services and revenue protection aspects seriously. If I need to change how I do things I will do so.

These bits will be the stuff that has lost you your job. Sorry if this sounds harsh, but if you've been reported to management then explain your position to them and don't speak the person who reported you until it has all blown over! I suspect that during your three month probationary period they felt they did not want to employ someone who accosts other members of staff, and by your admittance did not work at the level they were expecting.

I did make a report post on that point when this first appeared but it seems to have been to no avail.

Personally I feel a lot written on here would really be best dealt with by being removed before it causes trouble as I have no doubt at all that when the individuals find their names or references that will identify them being used on a public Forum, they will be far from happy.

Quite. I think that the OP simply has let his mouth run away, in posting this, in shouting at "H" and in conversation with "K".

I think from your own admission that there were parts of your working practise which needed addressing, along with the fact that this situation has come to light, you probably don't stand much of a chance.

Agreed.

That most people would turn a blind eye to this behaviour (including myself) is also irrelevant. Our OP is a "whistle blower", and since the Whistle Blower Protection Act of 1997, they also enjoy rights.

Sorry, but that's rubbish. The OP is not a whistleblower. To be considered one, you have to have blown the whistle on one of the following:

To be protected as a whistleblower you need to make a ‘qualifying disclosure’ about malpractice. This could be a disclosure about:
criminal offences
failure to comply with a legal obligation
miscarriages of justice
threats to an individual’s health and safety
damage to the environment
a deliberate attempt to cover up any of the above

For your disclosure to be protected by the law you should make it to the right person and in the right way. You must:
make the disclosure in good faith (which means with honest intent and without malice)
reasonably believe that the information is substantially true
reasonably believe you are making the disclosure to the right 'prescribed person'

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Employm...utes/Whistleblowingintheworkplace/DG_10026552

Having worked on the railways for near a decade in various roles with different TOCs ranging from junior to the senior most in the company under discussion i would like to strongly recommend you not to waste your time and move on. I have a complete knowledge of what has happened and feel no regret for what has been done to you.
Gateline staff are the frontline staff with a great responsibility to create the first impression to the external and internal customers and requires a bundle of energy, patience and excellent customer service skills. I wish you all the best for your future employment and recommend you to be more polite and courteous towards others around you.

You're the MD of Southern, are you?

By virute of what the OP has posted, it is not the whistle blowing act that was the reason for dismissal, but other aspects of their performance, including an aggressive and confrontational attitude towards colleagues.

Agreed.

 

[pendolino]

Despite claims to the contrary Conductors are not employed to stand outside normally functioning ticket offices and sell tickets

Really? Are you quite sure about that? In this particular circumstance for this TOC?

East Grinstead has only a small ticket office - maybe this will change when the new station building is constructed - but is a very busy station especially during the morning peak. During this time the queue to buy tickets can be a mile long. Now, I'm a driver for Southern, not a conductor, so I may be wrong, but my understanding is that during turn-arounds conductors are expected to be in the ticket office foyer selling tickets from their Avantix machines to complement those sold by the ticket office. Otherwise there would be plenty of people left standing in the queue at the ticket office window as their train pulls out.

This is regular practice - I see it on most mornings while I'm changing ends - and, as I say, perfectly acceptable as far as I am aware as it makes for good customer service. We are told to 'Be seen, be heard, be helpful' - a conductor is being more effective at all of those if he's in the foyer selling tickets, not in the mess room on the platform or on the train waiting to depart.

 

[Urban Gateline]

Pendolino has made a good point, if a terminating station has a ticket office with only 1 counter, and is often busy, then there is nothing wrong with the Conductor/Guard/TM helping by selling tickets before the train is due to depart, especially at stations with barriers it is good customer service, as those passengers would be prevented from boarding without a ticket, so an extra hand to sell tickets is great, definitely good customer service. Unfortunately Avantix isn't that fast for selling tickets and not all cards work with it, so its debatable as to how many tickets can actually be sold at turnaround time.

It might be more frowned upon if the said member of staff was blocking off the entrance to the platform and checking tickets!

 

[sidmouth]

Completely separate industry, but I had a colleague work with me over several years and very able he was too. He then left for another company and further opportunities but was sacked (and marched off the premises) after a week after not seeing eye to eye with one of his new colleagues. I think he thought he knew best having worked with me for several years (and hence experience) but his new colleague obviously thought otherwise...

Moral of the story is keep your head down whilst working your probationary and do nothing to upset any one. You can be sacked for any / no reason during this period, including upsetting / not getting on with colleagues. Never presume to know best during this period.

 

[richw]

From my past time employed by McDonalds, one of the criteria for passing a probation period at McDonalds is "works well with other crew". "crew" for those not familiar with McD terminology is their name for their employees.

 

[AlterEgo]

I'm afraid I can't offer much practical advice, but will make the following points:

Southern (and their management) read this forum. I know of at least one person in a senior position at Southern who does so.

Also - I don't think posting this on the forum is in any way productive for you.

Here's a life lesson. At work, we are often confronted with examples or instances where our colleagues, or the company as a whole, are not doing things correctly. This is life. It happens - regularly, and in every industry. What is important is that these things are corrected.

Management, and your colleagues who are worth their salt will not mind being challenged, provided:

1. You challenge them privately where possible.

2. You remain polite and civil, but firm if necessary.

3. You don't undermine them, or show them up on front of other colleagues, or worse, the public.

4. If you reach an impasse, know when to stop and agree to disagree (unless you are actually whistleblowing - see Ralphchadkirk's post).

Unfortunately, regardless of whether or not the guard should have been selling tickets in front of the ticket office, you went about things in totally the wrong way. I guess you know that by now. While I can't speak for Southern, I'll accept by default that they don't have a policy of wanting employees to be robots. If you thought something was wrong, you should have perhaps tested the waters by bringing it up in polite conversation in the messroom, and if your colleagues seemed to support the practice (and you still felt it was wrong) then you should have spoken discreetly to management about it. I daresay you'd have been respected had you gone about things in a more professional manner, even if no change occurred.

Change is more likely to happen if you try and keep everyone onside where possible, even if you disagree with their point of view. Be open. Be honest. But be amicable.

I'm sorry I can't offer any advice that may help you get your job back, but I'll be honest and say that if I was your line manager, I'd be very unimpressed by your conduct. You even say yourself that your own performance had been lacking, this incident aside. While I commend your honesty, I'm afraid I can offer only small crumbs of wisdom pieced together from the admittedly short time I have spent (about nine years) in the world of work.

 

[dvboy]

Even if you hadn't done enough to warrant dismissal before posting this thread, should Southern management find out about it you certainly have now.

Even with the names redacted, the persons concerned would be identifiable.

 

[DownSouth]

My advice based on experience in the retail industry (here in Australia where the legal system is reasonably similar to England) would be that the best the OP could possibly hope for is to cooperate with the company, grovel a lot and hope they'll write a neutral reference letter stating it was a resignation rather than a sacking.

The OP only presents their side of the story which looks bad enough for them, I can hardly imagine the accounts of others involved would make the OP look any better. Based on the OP's own view only, there's a clear case of workplace harassment, sticking two fingers up at management (by remonstrating in the messroom instead of reporting to management as instructed), a possible case of assault (as people have implied verbal abuse can be on the Scottish fare evader thread), whatever else happened in the bit that the OP doesn't remember and of course whatever else happened which the OP left out of their account of the incidents. All this on top of what the OP recognises as being less than competent in their job, and the fact the whole incident shows they are clearly not suitable for their public-facing position.

If person H was to apply for some kind of restraining order to protect their right to not be harassed in their workplace (going on just the OP's view of things that could be clearly justified) that would be the icing on the cake for the OP. For an employee to be banned from attending their workplace due to a court order is a clear cause for immediate dismissal due to bad conduct.

The OP is screwed, and nothing else can change that. The best that they can come out with if they are really lucky is getting away without it getting any worse for them. Some anger management counselling might be in order before attempting to rejoin the working world again.

 

[harz99]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the OP worked for an agency, not Southern? In which case his gripe is with his employer, not the company he was placed at (Southern).

If so his best course of action is to chalk all this up to experience, LEARN from his errors, and if he wishes to continue in the rail industry ,either find a rail company employing staff on a direct basis or a different agency.

Of course it may be much easier, and more advisable, to sort out a completely different career!

 

[AlterEgo]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the OP worked for an agency, not Southern? In which case his gripe is with his employer, not the company he was placed at (Southern).

Yes, good point!