Why did we go for ticket barriers at mainline stations?

[CockneySparrow]

The down side of barriers is that people changing trains will be less inclined to patronise the "land side" retail outlets, thus depriving businesses of income.

My partner and I often travel from Sheffield to Skipton and always used to stop off to buy a paper and have a coffee on Leeds concourse but now having to queue up for ages and explain why your ticket won't work the barriers on the way out and then again on the way back in means it's just not worth the hassle.

I have never had a problem at Leeds, I travel from PBO to BPN and just wave my ticket and then let through

I have never had to explain anything

 

[Cliveblackpool]

IMO barriers are an option where there are high volumes of passengers. If they are not in use for periods of the day they are not so effective.
They should print information on the ticket, so the passenger cannot mistake tickets have been used and conductors readily know its history.
Maybe when barriers are 'open' passengers should still validate their tickets at the barriers before entering platforms.
Smaller stations could have a machine to also stamp tickets.
I would suggest a 'reader' enabling passengers to check their tickets, and display the next train the ticket is valid on. (There are less staff today to confirm things)

 

[starrymarkb]

ticket gates at an airport is ridiculous, I hate trying to get through them with large luggage, especially if the attendant insist on you putting card through reader rather than looking at ticket and letting you through oversize gate.

With the airport ones large luggage would have been checked in before you reach the gates. I've not had an issue with standard Roll aboards in the gates at Bristol, Heathrow or Glasgow. The main purpose of these is to make sure only those with flight tickets can get Airside. Also with online check in being much more common, it makes sure that those that have checked in online are noted as having arrived at the airport.

 

[thelem]

I've read several times in separate sources that the real reason is to "funnel" everyone entering and leaving the stations in such a way as to get them all on CCTV.

If that was the only reason it would be cheaper just to install extra CCTV cameras.
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Requiring a fee [for toilets] helps Network Rail pay for their upkeep and discourages vandalism.

Can't that come out of the already substantial fee I'm paying for my train ticket? You don't find many shopping centres or restaurants charging you to use their toilets.
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ticket gates at an airport is ridiculous, I hate trying to get through them with large luggage, especially if the attendant insist on you putting card through reader rather than looking at ticket and letting you through oversize gate.

Most if not all of the gates at Gatwick are wide gates.

I've not had problems putting my tickets through the gates, but if it was obviously going to be difficult for me I expect the attendant would just put my ticket through the gate for me. Finding it in my wallet is likely to be harder if the problem is just that I've got my hands full.

 

[pemma]

Rail passengers should pay for their journey. Without barriers more get away with not paying than if barriers are there. Guards or inspectors on trains don't always have time to check every ticket.

OK so how do you propose dealing with ticketless travel between unstaffed stations? It isn't uncommon for unstaffed stations to have a high number of passengers arriving or departing at certain times of the day, especially where there are a number of schools of colleges near the station as is the case with Greenbank.

Wrongly assuming everyone goes to Manchester/Stockport/Chester from Mid-Cheshire line stations caused a lot of ticket-less travel for years. When Northern realised more people board and alight Mid-Cheshire services at Knutsford than at Chester they started putting RPIs at Knutsford.

 

[Cliveblackpool]

Can't that come out of the already substantial fee I'm paying for my train ticket? You don't find many shopping centres or restaurants charging you to use their toilets.

I always make a point of going 15+ minutes before I get off the train! Or wait till I board. Paying for loos lol!
Saves time & money!

 

[pemma]

I always make a point of going 15+ minutes before I get off the train! Or wait till I board. Paying for loos lol!
Saves time & money!

OK it the toilet is working, you're able to get through the train to it and a lot of other people don't have the same idea.

 

[3141]

OK so how do you propose dealing with ticketless travel between unstaffed stations? It isn't uncommon for unstaffed stations to have a high number of passengers arriving or departing at certain times of the day, especially where there are a number of schools of colleges near the station as is the case with Greenbank.

Wrongly assuming everyone goes to Manchester/Stockport/Chester from Mid-Cheshire line stations caused a lot of ticket-less travel for years. When Northern realised more people board and alight Mid-Cheshire services at Knutsford than at Chester they started putting RPIs at Knutsford.

I think you answered your question. Put RPIs at relevant stations at relevant times of day.

That may not be the complete answer. If there's a surge in the number of travellers at particular times at several unstaffed stations across a TOC's network (eg when school and college students are going home) there may not be enough trained RPIs for all of them. But if travellers know there's a good chance that someone will be checking tickets, and they don't know on which three days out of five it will be, that will persuade the majority who might otherwise have cheated to make sure they have a valid ticket.

The question of what to do at unstaffed stations which only have a large number of passengers once a day is on the fringe of the matter. It doesn't change the case for effective procedures at the many other stations where revenue loss is potentially much greater, and barriers are much more effective than manual ticket checking.

 

[pemma]

I think you answered your question. Put RPIs at relevant stations at relevant times of day.

Well apparently Northern contracted RPIs can only be at unstaffed stations for a limited period of time due to needing to have toilet facilities available for the RPIs if they are going to be there for a while. I'm not sure exactly how long they can spend at unstaffed stations.

The question of what to do at unstaffed stations which only have a large number of passengers once a day is on the fringe of the matter. It doesn't change the case for effective procedures at the many other stations where revenue loss is potentially much greater

Number of passengers passing through doesn't necessarily reflect the potential amount of revenue loss. 100 ticket-less passengers getting through Euston in the morning peak would probably be a much higher level of revenue loss than 100 getting through Huddersfield.

and barriers are much more effective than manual ticket checking.

One of the questions I posed in the original post, which seems to have been ignored, is why ticket barriers opposed to ticket validation machines and fines for people without validated tickets (as seems to be effective in countries such as Germany)?

 

[HSTEd]

Is it effective?
I have never seen any figures for that?

 

[pemma]

Is it effective?
I have never seen any figures for that?

Well I've been on quite a few DB services (not ICE) in different parts of Germany where a ticket inspector has come around and everyone seems to have a valid ticket to present, compare that with Northern services where you get people boarding without a valid ticket even at barriered stations like Chester.

 

[Stompehh]

Barriers aren't suitable for stations with small entry & exit thoroughfares, such as Bristol Temple Meads. Even at 20:00 on a Sunday evening, while changing trains there, I estimated it would take passengers three or four minutes to go through the barrier, not including the possibility of tickets being rejected for any number of reasons.

Note also that Bristol does NOT enjoy a 'metro-style' service.

I use Temple Meads regularly, including a spell of commuting on the XC service for a couple of months in the morning and evening peak.

It has never taken me more than 1 minute to get through the gateline. In busy periods there is always an army of 3/4 friendly assistants to keep things moving.

 

[deltic]

Unfortunately, ticket barriers are a necessary evil. Back in the old days every major station had manned barriers and even at smaller stations (like Kidderminster) tickets were collected from all arriving trains. Thus the result was that even though you may have had free access to trains, the chances were that you wouldn't be able to get out of your destination station. Everyone knew this and therefore bought a ticket before boarding.

All this changed in the mid-1980s when BR rolled out its 'open station' policy. This may have saved a fortune in staff costs but the side-effect was to create a big problem for 21st century TOCs, in that it resulted in an entire generation believing that they could simply board a train and buy a ticket on it, and of course on busy services this is not possible.

Now to be fair, the vast majority of this generation simply pay up with no argument when asked, but when Central Trains produced those 'name and shame' posters towards the end of its franchise the average age of those caught was very, very telling.

Hence today's gatelines, a cheap and cheerful, automated and not particularly convenient version of what stations used to have.

During BR days plenty of people travelled on London commuter services with out of date tickets as staff on ticket barriers had no chance of checking the sheer volume of them. Every now and then full ticket checks were carried out with every ticket looked at properly - revenue at the ticket office was known to quadruple as a result.

My experience on the continent is that there is plenty of ticketless travel on local services and ticket touting of used daily travelcards - but to some extent it is a cultural issue and varies between countries

 

[ChiefPlanner]

During BR days plenty of people travelled on London commuter services with out of date tickets as staff on ticket barriers had no chance of checking the sheer volume of them. Every now and then full ticket checks were carried out with every ticket looked at properly - revenue at the ticket office was known to quadruple as a result.

My experience on the continent is that there is plenty of ticketless travel on local services and ticket touting of used daily travelcards - but to some extent it is a cultural issue and varies between countries

And despite "conspiracy theories" - crime has actually reduced (let alone non criminal undesirables) hanging around by barriering stations. Am reminded of an overhead conversation with one individual who was clearly negotiating a drug deal by mobile - who said London Bridge was out of the question as he had no ticket......

 

[3141]

Well apparently Northern contracted RPIs can only be at unstaffed stations for a limited period of time due to needing to have toilet facilities available for the RPIs if they are going to be there for a while. I'm not sure exactly how long they can spend at unstaffed stations.

Number of passengers passing through doesn't necessarily reflect the potential amount of revenue loss. 100 ticket-less passengers getting through Euston in the morning peak would probably be a much higher level of revenue loss than 100 getting through Huddersfield.
One of the questions I posed in the original post, which seems to have been ignored, is why ticket barriers opposed to ticket validation machines and fines for people without validated tickets (as seems to be effective in countries such as Germany)?

Yes, there must be a practical limit for RPIs or anyone else to be scheduled to work at a station without toilets. At some stations the length of time when you need the RPIs there would be below that limit. Where it's higher the TOC would need to look for a solution. Two separate shifts of RPI's, maybe; or a portaloo; or accept that they can't regularly check tickets at that particular location.

I'm sure TOCs can work out at which stations the revenue protection methods will produce the highest return - or prevent the greatest loss. I'd certainly consider barriers appropriate at both Euston and Huddersfield.

As I've never been involved in revenue protection, on railways or elsewhere, I don't know the answer to your question about barriers versus ticket validation machines. In fact I don't know for certain how ticket validation machines would differ from barriers, which must themselves include "ticket validation". Perhaps part of the answer is that barriers physically stop most of the cheats from getting past them.

 

[pemma]

As I've never been involved in revenue protection, on railways or elsewhere, I don't know the answer to your question about barriers versus ticket validation machines. In fact I don't know for certain how ticket validation machines would differ from barriers, which must themselves include "ticket validation". Perhaps part of the answer is that barriers physically stop most of the cheats from getting past them.

Ticket validation is usually putting the ticket in to a machine on the platform which then stamps the date, time and location on to the ticket before you start your journey. If it's not validated then it's not seen as a valid ticket by ticket inspectors. The exact marking I have on a ticket validated at Roma Tiburtina station last Friday morning says "111010140848 ROMA TIBURT." So I'm not sure what the small 11 means at the beginning (maybe the number of the ticket validation machine?) but the rest says the date, time and location of validation.

The obvious snag with that is foreign tourists may not realise they are supposed to validate their ticket and get fined despite paying the correct fare. However, if we had the same system then it would mean Britain's abroad would question whether they are supposed to validate their ticket before use as it'd be what they're used to.

I think it's really the fine that's supposed to discourage ticket-less travel with the validation process to prevent ticket re-use.

 

[tripleseis]

The obvious snag with that is foreign tourists may not realise they are supposed to validate their ticket and get fined despite paying the correct fare. However, if we had the same system then it would mean Britain's abroad would question whether they are supposed to validate their ticket before use as it'd be what they're used to.

The closest we have to ticket validation is touching in with an Oyster card in London. An Oyster is invalid if it isn't touched in (especially with PAYG cards). The DLR is gateless on most of it's network, which relies on people's honesty when using it.

 

[WelshBluebird]

I use Temple Meads regularly, including a spell of commuting on the XC service for a couple of months in the morning and evening peak.

It has never taken me more than 1 minute to get through the gateline. In busy periods there is always an army of 3/4 friendly assistants to keep things moving.

IMO Temple Meads is fine as long as you have a ticket. If you don't (travelling from a station without ticketing facilities like Oldfield Park or Keynsham) then it can be a right pain as they usually only have one person selling tickets "platform side" (in my experience anyway).

 

[Skimpot flyer]

<snip> barriers physically stop most of the cheats from getting past them.

True. But they do not prevent someone cheating their fare by, for example, buying a ticket to the next station on the line (in order to access the railway), but travelling beyond the validity of that ticket to a station they know has no barriers. Which is why random ticket inspections are something I believe very strongly in. I've overheard a conversation between some college-age adults where one was questioning another why he bothered to buy a ticket 'when you can just walk off the platform at _____ ____ '

 

[thelem]

I think you answered your question. Put RPIs at relevant stations at relevant times of day.
...
if travellers know there's a good chance that someone will be checking tickets, and they don't know on which three days out of five it will be, that will persuade the majority who might otherwise have cheated to make sure they have a valid ticket.

It takes a lot of staff to do manual ticket checks, but barriers can be combined with roaming RPIs - install barriers at the station, but usually leave them open. When you do send your RPIs out, the same number can then cover three stations instead of one, because the barriers can do the bulk of the checks.

It doesn't even need to be three days out of five. Even one day out of five or ten would be enough to convince a lot of people to buy a ticket.
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One of the questions I posed in the original post, which seems to have been ignored, is why ticket barriers opposed to ticket validation machines and fines for people without validated tickets (as seems to be effective in countries such as Germany)?

I think those are even less customer friendly than barriers. If you're not a regular user it won't necessarily be obvious what you need to do, you've got your ticket after all. Even if you are a regular user it's easy to forget - look how many people forget to touch out with oyster.

 

[Starmill]

Requiring a fee helps Network Rail pay for their upkeep and discourages vandalism.

True of all toilets and operators. The vast majority of railway station and airport operators in the UK manage to offer free toilets, except Network Rail!

 

[Senex]

Barriers may be fine if you're a DfT civil servant travelling with no more than a briefcase and using a bog-standard design of ticket (and most of the pressure for barriers seems to have come from just such civil servants). If you have luggage to manipulate and/or a non-standard ticket it's a different matter altogether. My own worst-ever experience was a year ago at Newark, with a wait of a full ten minutes to get past the barrier-line whilst the one clerk on duty dealt with a complicated transaction on his portable machine for someone wanting to get on to the platforms whilst ignoring those of us who had just arrived and couldn't use the gates.

 

[Stompehh]

IMO Temple Meads is fine as long as you have a ticket. If you don't (travelling from a station without ticketing facilities like Oldfield Park or Keynsham) then it can be a right pain as they usually only have one person selling tickets "platform side" (in my experience anyway).

Good point - I don't normally fall into that category. Perhaps a barrier side ticket machine or two would be useful.

 

[3141]

Barriers may be fine if you're a DfT civil servant travelling with no more than a briefcase and using a bog-standard design of ticket (and most of the pressure for barriers seems to have come from just such civil servants). If you have luggage to manipulate and/or a non-standard ticket it's a different matter altogether. My own worst-ever experience was a year ago at Newark, with a wait of a full ten minutes to get past the barrier-line whilst the one clerk on duty dealt with a complicated transaction on his portable machine for someone wanting to get on to the platforms whilst ignoring those of us who had just arrived and couldn't use the gates.

There's a vast range of passengers between the DfT civil servant with no more than a briefcase and someone with luggage or a non-standard ticket. That vast range includes many people who aren't carrying anything. Most stations have at least one wide gate designed for use by people with luggage. Most people don't have a problem. As barriers do an effective job at requiring passengers to have a valid ticket I think the occasional problems are acceptable. At the stations I use there's always someone on duty to assist if required.
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True. But they do not prevent someone cheating their fare by, for example, buying a ticket to the next station on the line (in order to access the railway), but travelling beyond the validity of that ticket to a station they know has no barriers. Which is why random ticket inspections are something I believe very strongly in. I've overheard a conversation between some college-age adults where one was questioning another why he bothered to buy a ticket 'when you can just walk off the platform at _____ ____ '

As I said in an earlier post, no system is perfect. You could use the same trick with a short-distance ticket to get onto a platform past a human ticket-checker, intending to travel further to a station with no barriers or other checks.

I agree with you about the importance of other ticket inspections. On the SWT class 159s I use there's usually a ticket check during the 55-minute journey between Waterloo and Overton, even in the rush hour. Random checks to deal with the attitude shown in the conversation you overheard are also important.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

The closest we have to ticket validation is touching in with an Oyster card in London. An Oyster is invalid if it isn't touched in (especially with PAYG cards). The DLR is gateless on most of it's network, which relies on people's honesty when using it.

The DLR tends to have very frequent ticket checks on trains - so not entirely relying on people's honesty!

 

[Antman]

And in the real world the marketing types will add new products or change the rules on existing ones without any regard for the need to update the barriers.

The DLR tends to have very frequent ticket checks on trains - so not entirely relying on people's honesty!

Not very frequent in my experience, just now and again.