Sad Sprinter
Established Member
Does anyone know why the 455s ended up on Waterloo and Victoria services by the mid 80s but Kent services still made use of the 4-EPBs?
Does anyone know why the 455s ended up on Waterloo and Victoria services by the mid 80s but Kent services still made use of the 4-EPBs?
I've often wondered why express versions of the 455s weren't considered, a sort of 3rd rail version of a 317.
I've often wondered why express versions of the 455s weren't considered, a sort of 3rd rail version of a 317.
I wondered that about the 456's. Thought they would make ideal 4-car medium distance trains. But then again I suppose that's what the 319 was.
I've often wondered why express versions of the 455s weren't considered, a sort of 3rd rail version of a 317.
A very large fleet of 4-VEPs had been built, probably larger than necessary
456 took weak field at 25mph rather than the normal 40mph so where geared for suburban rather main lineI wondered that about the 456's. Thought they would make ideal 4-car medium distance trains. But then again I suppose that's what the 319 was.
There was at one point in the early 1990s an idea within NSE, documented in a supplement to RAIL about NSE, for additional 455-type cars containing first class and a toilet to be built to displace the 508 car from the 455/7s that might have made them suitable for outer suburban use - e.g. Reading line.
That's a bit of a moot point - it all depends on what services they intended to use them on. Each batch must have been ordered against a specific service. Some routes that ended up with suburban stock might have been appropriate for outer-suburban stock like VEPs.
194 VEPs probably made sense by the early 1990s once the non-gangwayed HAPs and slam door suburban stock had been seen off (although of course 19 of them lost their first class compartments for use on suburban services). However, it can be noted that Solent Link and East Grinstead electrification were both justified on the basis that no new stock was required so there must have been some slack in the fleet.
Probably would have gone down quite well on Guildford via Cobham as well. I assume the plan would have included replacing the low back seating as well? I hope it did!
I'm really not sure why BR built so many VEPs. It's not really clear what the latter batches of them were for. The initial twenty were for stopping services on the Bournemouth line, then batches followed to replace the LAVs, BILs, HALs and CORs. They'd gone by 1972, but the VEPs were still being turned out until 1974, and it wasn't until somewhat later than that that the HAP withdrawals commenced. Certainly a lot of VEPs ended up being cascaded to replace HAPs, because service cuts in the late 70s and early 80s resulted in an outer-suburban fleet somewhat bigger than necessary.
The later batch of VEP's was built specifically to take over semi-fast/stopper services in the South East, presumably because the full vestibule/corridor layout was more suited to the longer distance services. A lot of the HAP's migrated westward at that time. Whether the plan was to use more of them to supplement shorter distance services (had the traffic downturn not taken place) I don't know, however a lot were culled during the 1980's due to asbestos.
Which is interesting, because I’ve never been sure when NSE’s intended replacement for slam door stock on the Southern Region would have been. I know that the class 471 was meant to replace 4CEPs on Kent Lines, but would further batches have been built for the Central and Western Divisions in the latter part of the 90s?
Ah, this is making sense now. A lot of HAPs were downgraded to second class only in the mid-seventies, and moved onto suburban services, allowing SUBs to be withdrawn, so I guess that was the plan - after the last batch of BR-design EPBs in the early sixties, there was no SR suburban design in production. Building VEPs allowed an improvement on the South Eastern longer-distance stoppers, and provided a cascade to get rid of SUBs.
I suppose the downturn in traffic later on did it for the rest of the HAPs, although a few motor coaches ended up in EPBs.
Ah, this is making sense now. A lot of HAPs were downgraded to second class only in the mid-seventies, and moved onto suburban services, allowing SUBs to be withdrawn, so I guess that was the plan - after the last batch of BR-design EPBs in the early sixties, there was no SR suburban design in production. Building VEPs allowed an improvement on the South Eastern longer-distance stoppers, and provided a cascade to get rid of SUBs.
I suppose the downturn in traffic later on did it for the rest of the HAPs, although a few motor coaches ended up in EPBs.
The HAP's lasted in their complete form until the mid 1990's, albeit much depleted in numbers. Some latsupplemented Kent Coast peak hour services, and others on the North Kent line.
There were some soldiering on, on the Western and Central sections until then as well.
Ah, sorry didn't realise they lasted that long, I thought they were gone by late 1991.
The later batch of VEP's was built specifically to take over semi-fast/stopper services in the South East, presumably because the full vestibule/corridor layout was more suited to the longer distance services. A lot of the HAP's migrated westward at that time. Whether the plan was to use more of them to supplement shorter distance services (had the traffic downturn not taken place) I don't know, however a lot were culled during the 1980's due to asbestos.
I'm a bit hazy about the south western at the time, however I'm sure I've seen a picture of on strengthening a Portsmouth line service in 94/95. Would have to check though.
I'm a bit hazy about the south western at the time, however I'm sure I've seen a picture of on strengthening a Portsmouth line service in 94/95. Would have to check though.
I'm pretty confident the last HAPs were in 1991, and they were absent in 1992/93, though it is just possible they may have snuck back around that time as there was a period around 1994 when I wasn't using the South Western too much.
You're probably correct.They'd definitely gone from the Western section by then. The last few left - all operating in four-car formations - were all on the Eastern section with the last EPBs by then.
Last trip I remember taking on a HAP on the Western Section was from Surbiton to Portsmouth in 1989. I made the mistake of travelling in the motor coach, and first thing I did after arriving in Portsmouth was run to the toilets!
I wondered that about the 456's. Thought they would make ideal 4-car medium distance trains. But then again I suppose that's what the 319 was.
They sort-of were, though with a 321-style cab. Also they had toilets from new which were removed by Southern.I thought the 456 was a two-car version of the 455.
The South Eastern has historically been tight for gauge clearance, so I believe that there are also issues to do with restricted clearances on some routes on the SE that would preclude the operation of 455s, 456s or other Mark 3-based stock, hence the decision to order the Class 465/466 Networkers rather than a Class 455/456 derivative.
Also they had toilets from new which were removed by Southern.