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Why do many railway lines in this country run at a loss instead of being replaced by alternative modes?

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johncrossley

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Isn't railway induced property development a thing here?

To an extent, especially in commuter areas. Probably more of a thing in mainland Europe where you get offices and other business premises near the station, so it is almost like having another town centre. It probably helps that railway stations are hubs for transport generally, not just for trains, even if they are located some distance from the centre, unlike in Britain where buses only typically pass the station if it happens to be on the way to somewhere else.
 
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Dai Corner

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Isn't railway induced property development a thing here? The existence of a railway station, built on the edge of a town, induces property development by the demand of commuters when the property price in the city itself is at a premium, and eventually displaces the original town centre as the new economic centre of the town, especially on the key routes linking London which attracts commuter buying properties as near to the station as possible when London prices are not affordable to them.
Only where living close to the station is desirable, such as in the London commuter areas you mention. For most people elsewhere, the railway is simply not important.
 

24Grange

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I think you vastly underestimate the number and type of journeys for which a car is essential / infinitely more practical (particularly in non-urban areas) - or at least the number for which existing car owners will consider one to be essential. I accept I managed perfectly well for 36 years without one, but that was in urban areas. It's all very well to say "minicabs can serve the market", but not when you need to leave now and the response is "we'll be with you in about three quarters of an hour"

I really don't know how anyone can afford taxi or minicabs as a public service replacement. In my experience they are extortionately expensive. In an emergency situation, or a treat maybe, but regular transport - no you would be bankrupt within a month !!
 

mmh

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Isn't railway induced property development a thing here? The existence of a railway station, built on the edge of a town, induces property development by the demand of commuters when the property price in the city itself is at a premium, and eventually displaces the original town centre as the new economic centre of the town, especially on the key routes linking London which attracts commuter buying properties as near to the station as possible when London prices are not affordable to them.


This is the point, but for these high-class restaurant, doesn't running the business in Central London attract the most customers who can actually afford these meals at the right time?


Sandbanks does not beat City of London in terms of property price though, and a significant portion of the residents there are pensioners who are house rich money poor (which the HSBC Premier-only branch there refused to serve, and got closed in 2015 because not enough people used that branch exclusively for the rich), unlike those living in Central London who are mostly working professionals!

I think you could do with less of a focus on London. For the places this thread is, or should be, considering the railway does not exist as a tool for commuting to London, and the railway station dates back to the Victorian era so any development it brings has taken place a long time ago. I'd suggest broadening your horizons and you'd see that Britain is not an unusually large city-state with its regions solely serving as far-flung suburbs of London.

I really don't know how anyone can afford taxi or minicabs as a public service replacement. In my experience they are extortionately expensive. In an emergency situation, or a treat maybe, but regular transport - no you would be bankrupt within a month !!

That's far from universal. Once there is more than one passenger taxis in this area are cheaper than the bus for even a simple shopping / social trip into the nearest town. I suspect that's the case in many areas.
 

the sniper

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It seems Michelin don't regard Bournemouth and Poole as being in Dorset*. Searching on the town names brings up two in Bournemouth as well as the Rick Stein seafood restaurant in Sandbanks itself.


£17.95 for fish and chips there is beyond my budget, but presumably not of the locals.

* correctly. But let's not digress into geopolitics!

Ah, some options in reach of the OP then! Too bad the guide doesn't mention the nearest bus stop to each establishment...
 

NorthOxonian

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Isn't railway induced property development a thing here? The existence of a railway station, built on the edge of a town, induces property development by the demand of commuters when the property price in the city itself is at a premium, and eventually displaces the original town centre as the new economic centre of the town, especially on the key routes linking London which attracts commuter buying properties as near to the station as possible when
In a lot of cases geography prevents that. Take Durham - the railway station is on a ridge overlooking the city, so there's relatively little development there. In Oxford, the station is cut off from the city centre by a river - and is a little isolated from the actual heart of the city (this thread mentions Salisbury which I believe is the same).

Perhaps history may play a role too - often town and cities have been around for centuries, so a railway station which has been around for 200 years at most hasn't had time to shift the centre. Some of the places which do have genuinely central stations, such as Swindon or Middlesbrough, only really grew because of the railway.
 

JamesT

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In a lot of cases geography prevents that. Take Durham - the railway station is on a ridge overlooking the city, so there's relatively little development there. In Oxford, the station is cut off from the city centre by a river - and is a little isolated from the actual heart of the city (this thread mentions Salisbury which I believe is the same).

Perhaps history may play a role too - often town and cities have been around for centuries, so a railway station which has been around for 200 years at most hasn't had time to shift the centre. Some of the places which do have genuinely central stations, such as Swindon or Middlesbrough, only really grew because of the railway.

According to https://southoxfordhistory.org.uk/i...s-history/the-coming-of-the-railway-to-oxford there was some development around the first Oxford station when it was built 180 years ago, but that station only lasted 30 years on that site.
It’s interesting to ponder whether a station to the East of the city centre would have had a different effect. Partly due to the geographical effect of the rivers and partly the attraction of the industrial base at Cowley, Oxford has expanded to the East over time. So a station near The Plain would be somewhat more central than the current one.
 
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24Grange

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I think you could do with less of a focus on London. For the places this thread is, or should be, considering the railway does not exist as a tool for commuting to London, and the railway station dates back to the Victorian era so any development it brings has taken place a long time ago. I'd suggest broadening your horizons and you'd see that Britain is not an unusually large city-state with its regions solely serving as far-flung suburbs of London.



That's far from universal. Once there is more than one passenger taxis in this area are cheaper than the bus for even a simple shopping / social trip into the nearest town. I suspect that's the case in many areas.

I'm not so sure, In all the towns I've lived in, Taxis have been really expensive, Exmouth, East Devon, Exeter, Plymouth, Cardiff, Newport, Birmingham, Surbition, Cambridge I've yet to find a taxi fare anywhere even equal to a bus fare - never mind cheaper- usually at least double , if not triple the price.

As I've said before, I really don't know how people can afford to use them regularly.
 

Robertj21a

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So the cost is actually "£1000 + depreciation", which varies a lot on the car model.


Are there really restaurants of class located in rural areas but not in the town/city centre, that have target customers outside its own village?!



Oh well, pubs are located in the town centre.
It might be my imagination but are you being deliberately annoying with the torrent of inaccurate comments?
 

RT4038

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I'm not so sure, In all the towns I've lived in, Taxis have been really expensive, Exmouth, East Devon, Exeter, Plymouth, Cardiff, Newport, Birmingham, Surbition, Cambridge I've yet to find a taxi fare anywhere even equal to a bus fare - never mind cheaper- usually at least double , if not triple the price.

As I've said before, I really don't know how people can afford to use them regularly.
I don't think anyone is suggesting that taxi fares are ever at or cheaper than bus fares. (The clue being the phrase 'Once there is more than one passenger...')
However, taxi fares for urban journeys in provincial towns and cities are not considered extortionate by many people, who think little of paying double bus fare for the convenience, and I suspect that this proportion is actually rising, especially with the convenience of taxi/uber apps and the fear of using shared public transport in this pandemic.

It might be my imagination but are you being deliberately annoying with the torrent of inaccurate comments?
Perhaps a little more patience and understanding? If you don't like it, don't take part.

Isn't railway induced property development a thing here? The existence of a railway station, built on the edge of a town, induces property development by the demand of commuters when the property price in the city itself is at a premium, and eventually displaces the original town centre as the new economic centre of the town, especially on the key routes linking London which attracts commuter buying properties as near to the station as possible when London prices are not affordable to them.
Clearly this happened in times gone by, when the railway was all important, but has slowed down since the advent of mass motoring and desire for suburban housing, to the extent that it is unlikely to be happening at all now, except perhaps in a few specific circumstances.

Original town centres are far more likely now to be displaced by out-of-own retail and business parks, far from any railway station and with poor bus service, as people try to free themselves of any reliance on public transport.
 
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matacaster

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'Loss making' is an interesting concept! Government policy heavily affects it. Eg if the Government decided that electricity / fuel was to be free for rail operators due to the environmental benefit, then various lines would likely cease to be loss making. Equally, a per mile environmental levy on car / lorry use used to directly level up a situation lorries benefit from roads paid for largely by car owners, but rail has to bear all costs as it is an exclusive user of its infrastructure.
 

Dai Corner

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'Loss making' is an interesting concept! Government policy heavily affects it. Eg if the Government decided that electricity / fuel was to be free for rail operators due to the environmental benefit, then various lines would likely cease to be loss making. Equally, a per mile environmental levy on car / lorry use used to directly level up a situation lorries benefit from roads paid for largely by car owners, but rail has to bear all costs as it is an exclusive user of its infrastructure.
I'm not sure paying for their fuel out of the Government's Environmental budget instead of its Transport budget would materially affect whether the railways make a loss or not?
 

Falcon1200

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According to https://southoxfordhistory.org.uk/i...s-history/the-coming-of-the-railway-to-oxford there was some development around the first Oxford station when it was built 180 years ago, but that station only lasted 30 years on that site.
It’s interesting to ponder whether a station to the West of the city centre would have had a different effect. Partly due to the geographical effect of the rivers and partly the attraction of the industrial base at Cowley, Oxford has expanded to the West over time. So a station near The Plain would be somewhat more central than the current one.

Interesting link, thanks, which does show why extending the line northwards from the original station at Grandpont was next to impossible, hence the deviation to the west. BTW I think your references to West of the city centre should read East ?!

IIRC the Oxford & Aylesbury Tramroad planned to enter Oxford from the east, with a terminus somewhere near St Clements ?
 

JamesT

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Interesting link, thanks, which does show why extending the line northwards from the original station at Grandpont was next to impossible, hence the deviation to the west. BTW I think your references to West of the city centre should read East ?!

IIRC the Oxford & Aylesbury Tramroad planned to enter Oxford from the east, with a terminus somewhere near St Clements ?
Yes, I did mean East, edited my post, thanks.
 

matacaster

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I'm not sure paying for their fuel out of the Government's Environmental budget instead of its Transport budget would materially affect whether the railways make a loss or not?
If zero cost for fuel is recorded in rail company accounts, they would be markedly improved. Whilst the cost is of course still incurred it would appear elsewhere in Government accounts, it being covered by an environmental levy.
 

Dai Corner

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If zero cost for fuel is recorded in rail company accounts, they would be markedly improved. Whilst the cost is of course still incurred it would appear elsewhere in Government accounts, it being covered by an environmental levy.
Presumably the rail companies' subsidies from Government would be reduced by the value of the free fuel they received and the net affect on their profit and loss accounts would be zero.
 

6Gman

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Isn't railway induced property development a thing here? The existence of a railway station, built on the edge of a town, induces property development by the demand of commuters when the property price in the city itself is at a premium, and eventually displaces the original town centre as the new economic centre of the town, especially on the key routes linking London which attracts commuter buying properties as near to the station as possible when London prices are not affordable to them.
But this thread is not about "the key routes linking London". It's about the loss-making lines which could* be replaced by alternative modes.

"Railway induced property development" is definitely a thing in certain areas (mostly in London and the South East). But it's not going to be attractive in Yorton or Dolgarrog or Langwathby or Danby or Cynghordy or hundred of other stations or dozens of other routes.

Which is what this thread was (supposedly) talking about.

* Indeed, I believe you started the discussion by citing China where rural stations have been closed.

Mod note - split from this thread: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...doors-in-the-uk-and-european-countries.218977


Is it commonplace that rural villages are served by train in the UK? I believe that, these rural stations are so unprofitable to railway companies and whenever they improve the railway to increase line speed, such that additional capacity can be provided between major cities, these rural stations are decommissioned, as long as there are some stopping coach lines serving the rural villages! (we called these "slow coaches" because they stop at every village between major cities, compared to "express coaches" which travel on motorways)

This is how the railway network developed in China. China has the most advanced passenger rail network in the world, with many new high speed lines and existing lines upgraded to provide additional capacity in response of the ever increasing demand, and many rural stations have been demolished and replaced by coach travel (in some rural areas, where there are no highways, these slow lines keep operate as a form of social responsibility).
My recollection was accurate. This thread opened with "is it commonplace that rural villages are served by train in the UK?". So not sure how Michelin-starred restaurants in the City of London are relevant . . .
 
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daodao

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"is it commonplace that rural villages are served by train in the UK?"
By and large, rural villages are NOT served by train in the UK, where their stations were on main lines; they were closed before or during the Beeching era. There are also few purely rural lines/branches still open. The rural stations that have survived are generally on those minor routes or branch lines that have survived.

Contrast the North and West main line (the Marches route) from Shrewsbury to Newport with the Heart of Wales line that branches off it at Craven Arms, and note the lack of any other remaining branches off this route. The surviving stations on the Marches line all serve substantial settlements, whereas on the Heart of Wales line, nearly all the rural halts are still open.
 
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tbtc

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Railway stations are often located in less than central locations in other countries as well, hence why buses end up having to serve both the railway station and the town centre. This can be an advantage as it means that it is easier to construct a bus station at the railway station.

Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, it partly depends on the geography

For example, thirty years ago, in the days before the Supertram was built (and before some of the Hospital facilities moved from the Hallamshire to the Northern General) the most frequent bus service in Sheffield used to be the 60 which linked the train station to the city centre to the main University area and main hospital - buses were every minute or minute and a half at peak times...

...the University and Hospital areas are on the western side of the city centre, the train station was on the eastern side. So the 60 was effectively linking Train Station - High Street - University - Hospital (and then into the suburbs beyond). But to get services from other parts of Sheffield to provide that train station link (e.g. to the Northern General), you'd have to divert them away from the High Street area to serve the station instead (or create awkward loops so that they served both, but that would mean a lot more buses clogging up the city centre streets)

In the case of Salisbury, it looks easy enough to get services from the east to extend beyond the centre to the train station (which is on the west of the centre) or for services from the west to divert via the train station on their way to the centre (though I don't think that any of them actually do - there was only a Park & Ride service that served the station last time I was there, as far as I can remember anyhow).

North/South services are a bit trickier, given that you'd need to decide whether to omit some of the current route through central Salisbury to serve the station, or try to serve both (thus increasing the PVR)

Same goes in a number of places with peripheral train stations - Bristol/ Leicester/ Derby - How many routes are there where a station link/extension/ diversion would be commercially viable? How many existing passengers do you disrupt/delay for the sake of new passengers who'd be wanting to connect to trains? Is it worth diverting/extending dozens of buses per hour past a train station with only a couple of trains per hour in each direction?

That's the problem with discussions on here - the bus industry is treated like a slave of the railway, expected to spring into action at any moment - e.g. the threads about railway disruption where enthusiasts bemoan the fact that it took an hour for a dozen "rail replacement" coaches to be pressed into service following a problem on the line - there was a thread yesterday where people were complaining about Northern not getting a coach operator to find staff/vehicles to cover the fact that there weren't enough rail staff to run anything between Barrow and Carlisle (even though the reasons for the lack of rail staff - some off due to Covid and others unwilling to do overtime when there was a big football match on) are obviously going to be the same with any bus drivers!

People on here just expect buses and bus drivers and bus operators to jump into line, to run all of their services based on what the railway wants/needs - all routes should be diverted to serve train stations, all passengers should be forced to change onto trains at the nearest station because we cannot abide any other form of transportation competing with precious trains...

If Victorian speculators built a train station a good mile away from the town/city centre then that's how things are - we need some kind of sensible policy of how to manage the different demands - but this carte blanche approach of "buses should submit to trains" often found on the Forum really isn't helpful

Isn't railway induced property development a thing here? The existence of a railway station, built on the edge of a town, induces property development by the demand of commuters when the property price in the city itself is at a premium, and eventually displaces the original town centre as the new economic centre of the town, especially on the key routes linking London which attracts commuter buying properties as near to the station as possible when London prices are not affordable to them

In theory, but then you get a lot of pushback on here where stations are suggested in brand new locations, since people are wedded to travel patterns that have existed for a hundred years - e.g. the idea of an East Midlands stop on HS2 being at Toton rather than where the nineteenth century stations in Derby/Nottingham were sited

'Loss making' is an interesting concept! Government policy heavily affects it. Eg if the Government decided that electricity / fuel was to be free for rail operators due to the environmental benefit, then various lines would likely cease to be loss making. Equally, a per mile environmental levy on car / lorry use used to directly level up a situation lorries benefit from roads paid for largely by car owners, but rail has to bear all costs as it is an exclusive user of its infrastructure.

If zero cost for fuel is recorded in rail company accounts, they would be markedly improved. Whilst the cost is of course still incurred it would appear elsewhere in Government accounts, it being covered by an environmental levy.

My understanding is that TOCs already get heavily discounted fuel (red diesel?) - which is hidden away as a subsidy rather than ebbing explicit like the way that bus operators get documented rebates (BSOG?), so I can't see it making a huge difference in terms of the franchises with the forty pence per passenger mile subsidies

But it does feel a bit like working backwards from "heavy rail must be the answer" to try to skew things to ensure that your preferred form of transport is competitive.
 

yorksrob

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Well, I've just missed the bus on my local urban route and because its a Sunday, there's a forty minute wait until the next one. Hardly a turn up and go frequency.
 

1955LR

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No Sunday bus service at all where I live. Only Monday to Friday and reduced on Saturday . Getting to a Rail Station even on weekdays without long waits , is not realistic on public transport , so car or taxi rules
 

johncrossley

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Same goes in a number of places with peripheral train stations - Bristol/ Leicester/ Derby - How many routes are there where a station link/extension/ diversion would be commercially viable? How many existing passengers do you disrupt/delay for the sake of new passengers who'd be wanting to connect to trains? Is it worth diverting/extending dozens of buses per hour past a train station with only a couple of trains per hour in each direction?

If you look at public transport network maps in other countries, it seems to vary according to the size of the town. In smaller places then you will almost always see all buses serving the railway station and the town centre. Maybe some routes will not serve the town centre if it is beyond the railway station but if there are plenty of other buses going to the town centre you can change and you don't normally have to pay extra to change. That is more likely to be the case in a middle sized city. In big cities in other countries, the transport network is often designed so that different routes go to different parts of the city centre, meaning it is very likely you will have to change buses/trams/metros etc. You may even get many routes that don't go to the city centre at all. So a trip from an outlying suburb may mean changing more than once. So for example getting a bus to your nearest metro or tram stop, then getting the tram/metro to one part of the city centre, then getting another bus/tram/metro to your final destination. Whereas in large British cities, except London, you tend to get almost all buses going along major corridors from the city centre, fanning out into different branches when you get further out. London is more like the continental system as the centre is so huge.
 

Bald Rick

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As I've said before, I really don't know how people can afford to use them regularly.

Taxis aren’t really a competitor to the bus. They are a competitor to the car. If a car costs around £500 a year minimum before you turn a wheel (often more), plus fuel, plus depreciation, that’s worth a lot of taxi trips for relatively short trips.
 

RT4038

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Taxis aren’t really a competitor to the bus. They are a competitor to the car. If a car costs around £500 a year minimum before you turn a wheel (often more), plus fuel, plus depreciation, that’s worth a lot of taxi trips for relatively short trips.
I don't think that is right. Taxis can be competitors to buses (groups of passengers, door to door rather than walk to/from bus stop etc), and they can be complementary to the whole public transport offer in competition with cars.
 
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