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Why do so many people want to avoid their fare?

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Phil.

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Do you have anything to back that up?

People drive faster than the posted speed limits.
People park illegally.
People get in a quiet coach and start braying into their poser-phones.
People cross the road fifty yards from a pedestrian crossing.

It may seem minor to you but these are the acts of a person with anarchic traits.

Anarchy. "A state of disorder due to absence or non-recognition of authority or other controlling system(s)".

In other words, ignoring the rules and the British have done this for years.
 
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Deerfold

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People drive faster than the posted speed limits.
People park illegally.
People get in a quiet coach and start braying into their poser-phones.

It may seem minor to you but these are the acts of a person with anarchic traits.

Anarchy. "A state of disorder due to absence or non-recognition of authority or other controlling system(s)".

In other words, ignoring the rules and the British have done this for years.

But most people wouldn't. Although these things are annoying, certainly in my experience, they're the actions of a minority of people.

I'm fairly sure I've heard of stereotypical British behaviour involving their habit of apologising to someone who bumps into them.

You can step outside and take a look around you!

Generalisations will always be generalisations and not target all and sundry, but there is definitely a bit of a problem somewhere and there's no point hushing it up. I hate using public transport, and its not because of the service provided all the time.

I've been outside every day this week. The only illegal or anti-social actions I've seen are a handful of people cycling on the pavement without lights.

This week I'm in North West London.
 
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broadgage

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I do wonder if some people are "over thinking" the issue of deliberate non payment of train fares.
IMO, in the great majority of cases it is simply to dishonestly save money, it is no worse and no better than shoplifting, which is also a popular crime.

A very small proportion of fare evaders may be making a moral or political protest against the TOC or the rail industry in general. Such actions are somewhat comparable to shoplifters who steal fur coats to destroy them, as a protest against the fur trade.

But in my view the great majority of fare evaders, shoplifters, and other petty criminals do it simply to save money.
 

najaB

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But in my view the great majority of fare evaders, shoplifters, and other petty criminals do it simply to save money.
And many of them will also give to charity and consider themselves to be 'good people' because "Stealing from BigCo Ltd. isn't really stealing, is it?"
 

dakta

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I've been outside every day this week.

Well then you've missed a lot of what happens in this world.

On the bright side, I'm not going to argue you see antisocial behaviour if you don't. The down side is it exists, and if you don't see it or even find it common you're luckier than many.

It will be subject to disturbances and variances, for example there's some areas worse than others, but generally there's a lot of attitude about.

In fact I don't even have to go outside, you can see a lot of on facebook - it's not even events, it's just an attitude of entitlement that people have these days. You can see it even when people are being polite, people who are friendly you but in different circumstances you might be pulling them for using their phone behind the wheel, or not having a £2 ticket or whatnot and you know they'd be an absolute a-hole about it.

There's a huge culture, I won't even argue whether it's a majority - but there is a huge culture with a massive number of people who it does apply to whom cannot handle being at fault, and yet they insist on taking the risk, and woe betide anyone pull them on it with responses ranging from general mouthy attitude all the way up the spectrum (thankfully decreasingly so) to on-going harassment, assault and murder.

It is a problem, and the only people I've ever see deny it are those who wouldn't see it.
 
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miami

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I do wonder if some people are "over thinking" the issue of deliberate non payment of train fares.
IMO, in the great majority of cases it is simply to dishonestly save money, it is no worse and no better than shoplifting, which is also a popular crime.

No, its different to shoplifting. Shoplifting causes a cost on the company that's stolen from (they have to pay to replace the stock). Fare evasion doesn't cause a quantifiable cost (the extra fuel to transport the person is insignificant)

It's far closer to copying a CD -- there's no cost to Adele if I make a copy of a friend's version of her album, but it's still illegal (as indeed is copying a CD I own onto my phone to listen to when I go for a jog)
 

fowler9

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No, its different to shoplifting. Shoplifting causes a cost on the company that's stolen from (they have to pay to replace the stock). Fare evasion doesn't cause a quantifiable cost (the extra fuel to transport the person is insignificant)

It's far closer to copying a CD -- there's no cost to Adele if I make a copy of a friend's version of her album, but it's still illegal (as indeed is copying a CD I own onto my phone to listen to when I go for a jog)

I don't think copying a CD you own for your own personal use is a crime, I could be wrong. I think playing it at a public event or to sell it would be.

It was quite amusing this evening to see lads in Canada Goose jackets that blatantly bunked on to the 18:55 from Lime Street didn't manage to buy tickets, get a cheaper coat and buy a train ticket, we don't live in the Antarctic, they aren't Richard Attenborough making a documentary about penguins in Patagonia, they are bunking on to Hough Green. It is hard to quantify the cost of people bunking on until the service gets taken off because not enough people are apparently using it. That is possibly more of a social cost to people like me who can no longer get home when they want.
 

miami

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I don't think copying a CD you own for your own personal use is a crime, I could be wrong.

You are wrong. And if you've been doing that, you've been doing the equivalent of fare evasion. It's not even hard to simply buy the tune on itunes or amazon, in fact unlike with the train paying is easier than not paying.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/artic...egal-again-after-high-court-overturns-new-law
It's now illegal - again - to copy CDs or DVDs you've bought to put onto your MP3 player, your computer or other devices.
The government had introduced a new law in October last year meaning it was legal to transfer music into your home library.
But that law has been overturned in the High Court.
It's after a legal challenge from Basca, the Musicians' Union, and industry representatives UK Music.
...
The law brought in last October made it legal to make back-ups for personal use but it always remained an offence to share those copies with friends or family or to sell on that music or data.
...
CEO of UK Music, Jo Dipple said: "Last month, the High Court agreed with us that government acted unlawfully when it introduced an exception to copyright for private copying without fair compensation.

(also in the fare evasion/copyright infringing bucket are those who copy and paste entire articles from websites. Why do so many people on this forum want to "steal")

It was quite amusing this evening to see lads in Canada Goose jackets that blatantly bunked on to the 18:55 from Lime Street didn't manage to buy tickets, get a cheaper coat and buy a train ticket, we don't live in the Antarctic, they aren't Richard Attenborough making a documentary about penguins in Patagonia, they are bunking on to Hough Green. It is hard to quantify the cost of people bunking on until the service gets taken off because not enough people are apparently using it. That is possibly more of a social cost to people like me who can no longer get home when they want.

Indeed, and it's hard to quantify the cost of people copying CDs, or not paying their TV license to fund David Attenborough's antarctic trips, or people using an adblocker on websites, but none of that is stealing.
 

Deerfold

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There's a huge culture, I won't even argue whether it's a majority

Then you're not arguing against what I'm saying. You're just going off on a rant.

I simply stated that I did not believe the majority of the British could be described as anarchic.
 

fowler9

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You are wrong. And if you've been doing that, you've been doing the equivalent of fare evasion. It's not even hard to simply buy the tune on itunes or amazon, in fact unlike with the train paying is easier than not paying.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/artic...egal-again-after-high-court-overturns-new-law


(also in the fare evasion/copyright infringing bucket are those who copy and paste entire articles from websites. Why do so many people on this forum want to "steal")



Indeed, and it's hard to quantify the cost of people copying CDs, or not paying their TV license to fund David Attenborough's antarctic trips, or people using an adblocker on websites, but none of that is stealing.

I get you. The thing is if you buy a DVD it says on the back unauthorised lending is not permitted. So I can't lend a DVD to a mate? Just asking out of interest and where I would stand legally if I lent a mate a copy of Enders Game?
 

miami

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I think allowing someone to watch that film would be treated fairly severely!

I believe the law prohibits lending to members of the public. Friends are fine.
 

fowler9

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I think allowing someone to watch that film would be treated fairly severely!

I believe the law prohibits lending to members of the public. Friends are fine.

So whatever your opinions of Enders Game (Which was unfortunately the first DVD I had to hand) lending to a friend would be legal. Why would copying something for your own use be any different?
 

miami

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So whatever your opinions of Enders Game (Which was unfortunately the first DVD I had to hand) lending to a friend would be legal. Why would copying something for your own use be any different?

Because that's the law, stupid as it is, and the law is far clearer than many rules people get hit for in the railway industry
 

dakta

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I simply stated that I did not believe the majority of the British could be described as anarchic.

It's not a rant but if it reads like one it's not the end of the world.

AFAIC someome mentioned brits as being anarchic and you asked them to back it up with something. My comment about going outside is just a bit of dark humour that you go out and it's all around us. I hit on the topic of majorities simply because people get too hung up on semantics, when really it's more the general perception that matters. Being reasonable, If someone tells me that brits are anarchic I'd reckon they've just seen or witnessed a disproportionate amount of that behaviour. Not a great thing :(
 
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Deerfold

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It's not a rant but if it reads like one it's not the end of the world.

AFAIC someome mentioned brits as being anarchic and you asked them to back it up with something. My comment about going outside is just a bit of dark humour that you go out and it's all around us. I hit on the topic of majorities simply because people get too hung up on semantics, when really it's more the general perception that matters. Being reasonable, If someone tells me that brits are anarchic I'd reckon they've just seen or witnessed a disproportionate amount of that behaviour. Not a great thing :(

The post of mine you were replying to stated that these were a minority of people. If you're not claiming they're a majority then you're not arguing against me.
 

al78

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It's not a rant but if it reads like one it's not the end of the world.

AFAIC someome mentioned brits as being anarchic and you asked them to back it up with something. My comment about going outside is just a bit of dark humour that you go out and it's all around us. I hit on the topic of majorities simply because people get too hung up on semantics, when really it's more the general perception that matters. Being reasonable, If someone tells me that brits are anarchic I'd reckon they've just seen or witnessed a disproportionate amount of that behaviour. Not a great thing :(

If someone tells me that brits are anarchic I'd reckon they have formulated such an opinion, then collectively stored in their mind observations which confirm that opinion, and dismissed anything which contradicts that opinion. It is known as confirmation bias, and is one of many human cognitive fallacies.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overconfidence_effect
 

Busaholic

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It's an interesting conundrum. If I (for the sake of argument) go twenty yards up my road and steal a bar of chocolate costing £1 that is theft - the bar may have cost the shop 50p say, so that is their loss, but I would be charged with the theft of a £1 item. If I then get on a train at Penzance station without a ticket (not too difficult) and travel to Paddington successfully evading detection ( much more difficult, I would have thought) then, if I got stopped attempting to leave the platform at Paddington, and I confessed my guilt at not having bought a ticket and, moreover, not having the slightest intention of purchasing one, thus much simplifying the process of whether to prosecute me or not, for what sum would the TOC be accusing me of stealing from them? Perhaps you see my point (I suspect most people viewing won't, though) - how do you quantify the loss? You can argue that the single fare would have been x pounds (x hundred pounds, even) but you could argue the loss to the TOC was precisely nil, as the train was running anyway, with or without my presence on it, so, unlike the chocolate bar, the TOC weren't being deprived of anything that had cost them money.

At this juncture I'd better state that, as it happens, I don't concur with the opinion above, but I do see how it could be easy for some to take the view that fare evasion is a 'victimless crime'. I don't think the train companies exactly help their case either by, seemingly, being far too willing to prosecute/ issue penalty fares in cases which to the casual observer seem possible or even likely to have been genuine errors, perhaps exacerbated by the ridiculous profusion of fares. restrictions, caveats etc etc which are quite likely to lead to confusion.

Discuss, if you wish.
 

fowler9

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It is complicated with transport. If enough people use a service without it being paid for it may eventually be withdrawn. At the same time I often use early morning bus services which occasionally don't turn up with no explanation. Having paid for a Trio ticket in Liverpool in advance of the journey I intended and indeed needed to make in order to get to work have I been a victim of a crime? They have taken money from me for something they have not provided.

To put it more simply if I don't pay for a service and use it, it is a crime, if I pay for something and it isn't provided it isn't a crime? How does that work?
 
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najaB

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To put it more simply if I don't pay for a service and use it, it is a crime, if I pay for something and it isn't provided it isn't a crime? How does that work?
It's a breach of contract as they failed to provide the service. You are entitled to a refund and may additionally be due compensation.

There hasn't, however, been a crime committed unless it can be proven that they never intended to provide the service - in which case they have committed fraud.
 
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fowler9

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It's a beach of contract as they failed to provide the service. You are entitled to a refund and may additionally be due compensation.

There hasn't, however, been a crime committed unless it can be proven that they never intended to provide the service - in which case they have committed fraud.

Cheers najaB. Concisely put. :D
 

exile

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Why do people want to dodge paying fares? I wonder if it's the same reason many people are happy to drive as fast as they like and park where they like, drop litter everywhere and don't want to pay to do so. There are those who have a certain attitude to public goods and services, that is, a somewhat anti-social viewpoint, a resentment of rules and regulations and a desire to flout them whenever possible. I find this common to people of different income levels, social groups and political views. Perhaps a certain level of this sort of behaviour is healthy - a society where everyone conformed to every rule all of the time might be rather fascistic. I tend to err in the other direction though - obeying rules unless there is a very good reason not to.
 

fowler9

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Why do people want to dodge paying fares? I wonder if it's the same reason many people are happy to drive as fast as they like and park where they like, drop litter everywhere and don't want to pay to do so. There are those who have a certain attitude to public goods and services, that is, a somewhat anti-social viewpoint, a resentment of rules and regulations and a desire to flout them whenever possible. I find this common to people of different income levels, social groups and political views. Perhaps a certain level of this sort of behaviour is healthy - a society where everyone conformed to every rule all of the time might be rather fascistic. I tend to err in the other direction though - obeying rules unless there is a very good reason not to.

The problem being that people dodging fairs, breaking the speed limit, parking where they like, standing up on the plane when the seatbelt sign is still lit etc. etc. etc. all think they have a very good reason to not obey, because they know best. We currently live in a very self entitled society. I completely agree with questioning rules, but doing it by just breaking them is not the way to do it.
 

miami

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The problem being that people dodging fairs

Yes, they always glue the coconuts in, best to avoid them.

We currently live in a very self entitled society.

No more than always.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I'm am genuinely staggered with the number of people that seem to want to avoid their fare. Every day there are new threads in this forum about people seeking advice as to how to minimise their guilt.

Looking through the threads again, I see people who have paid their fare but lost their ticket, paid their fare but put the wrong number in, paid their fare but got the wrong train and were unable to prove they had authority to travel, paid their fare and lost their ticket, several examples of the TOCs avoiding paying, someone paying their fare but enterring the date on a carnet slightly incorrectly.

Again I don't see the staggering number of people who want to avoid their fare in this forum.
 

Paule23

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It's an interesting conundrum. If I (for the sake of argument) go twenty yards up my road and steal a bar of chocolate costing £1 that is theft - the bar may have cost the shop 50p say, so that is their loss, but I would be charged with the theft of a £1 item. If I then get on a train at Penzance station without a ticket (not too difficult) and travel to Paddington successfully evading detection ( much more difficult, I would have thought) then, if I got stopped attempting to leave the platform at Paddington, and I confessed my guilt at not having bought a ticket and, moreover, not having the slightest intention of purchasing one, thus much simplifying the process of whether to prosecute me or not, for what sum would the TOC be accusing me of stealing from them? Perhaps you see my point (I suspect most people viewing won't, though) - how do you quantify the loss? You can argue that the single fare would have been x pounds (x hundred pounds, even) but you could argue the loss to the TOC was precisely nil, as the train was running anyway, with or without my presence on it, so, unlike the chocolate bar, the TOC weren't being deprived of anything that had cost them money.



At this juncture I'd better state that, as it happens, I don't concur with the opinion above, but I do see how it could be easy for some to take the view that fare evasion is a 'victimless crime'. I don't think the train companies exactly help their case either by, seemingly, being far too willing to prosecute/ issue penalty fares in cases which to the casual observer seem possible or even likely to have been genuine errors, perhaps exacerbated by the ridiculous profusion of fares. restrictions, caveats etc etc which are quite likely to lead to confusion.



Discuss, if you wish.



The 'victims' are everyone who pays into the railways, and given a lot of funding comes from the taxpayer, then the majority of people in the UK are victims.

By not paying a fare, the costs (including profit to franchise holders) are borne by a reduced number of people, these people all pay an increased amount per head,compared to what they would have paid were no-one to fare evade.

Therefore not a victimless crime.

I agree the marginal cost could be difficult to accurately quantify, the best option appears to be the current method where fare evaded is the 'loss'
 

lineclear

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Again I don't see the staggering number of people who want to avoid their fare in this forum.

I see quite a few on my daily commute. There are a fair number of people who walk past open ticket offices and buy tickets if the guard gets around in time. Some of these are regulars. A lot of them board at the origin well before the train departs, so it's not like they didn't have enough time to buy a ticket before boarding.

I have seen people attempt to buy a ticket on board using a card. The guard has explained that the card machine wasn't working and instructed them to buy a ticket at their destination. At said destination, they walked straight past the ticket office or TVM and out the exit.

I have heard people say to their SOs/mates 'don't buy a ticket here, wait until Leeds and tell them we came from Burley Park'.

The other week I heard the following exchange on board:

Passenger: 'single from Harrogate to Leeds with this railcard'
Guard: 'you can't use that railcard - you should have bought a ticket at Harrogate'
Passenger: 'actually I came from Starbeck'

I don't doubt that if any of these people ended up on this forum they would have a tale of woe.
 

Dom395

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It's an interesting conundrum. If I (for the sake of argument) go twenty yards up my road and steal a bar of chocolate costing £1 that is theft - the bar may have cost the shop 50p say, so that is their loss, but I would be charged with the theft of a £1 item. If I then get on a train at Penzance station without a ticket (not too difficult) and travel to Paddington successfully evading detection ( much more difficult, I would have thought) then, if I got stopped attempting to leave the platform at Paddington, and I confessed my guilt at not having bought a ticket and, moreover, not having the slightest intention of purchasing one, thus much simplifying the process of whether to prosecute me or not, for what sum would the TOC be accusing me of stealing from them? Perhaps you see my point (I suspect most people viewing won't, though) - how do you quantify the loss? You can argue that the single fare would have been x pounds (x hundred pounds, even) but you could argue the loss to the TOC was precisely nil, as the train was running anyway, with or without my presence on it, so, unlike the chocolate bar, the TOC weren't being deprived of anything that had cost them money.

At this juncture I'd better state that, as it happens, I don't concur with the opinion above, but I do see how it could be easy for some to take the view that fare evasion is a 'victimless crime'. I don't think the train companies exactly help their case either by, seemingly, being far too willing to prosecute/ issue penalty fares in cases which to the casual observer seem possible or even likely to have been genuine errors, perhaps exacerbated by the ridiculous profusion of fares. restrictions, caveats etc etc which are quite likely to lead to confusion.

Discuss, if you wish.

Unfortunately, TOC's are far too greedy to let the odd passenger fare evade every so often.
 

Darandio

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Unfortunately, TOC's are far too greedy to let the odd passenger fare evade every so often.

Not sure what you mean here?

Are you suggesting that the TOC's should allow people to evade their fare every so often, but are too greedy to do so?
 
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