Why do VTEC diverts call at Carlisle?

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Clansman

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Just a quick question, as the title states. How come VTEC diverts call at Carlisle? Just curious...
 
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Shaw S Hunter

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I can only quote the historical background. When first built there were 7 different (mainline) railway companies serving Carlisle, all of which effectively had Carlisle as their terminus. So through trains would inevitably have required a complete change of traction and crew. Even in BR days there were very few traincrew, other than those based in Carlisle itself, who signed beyond Carlisle regardless of the direction from which they arrived.

Coming to today not too much will have changed and VTEC certainly don't have traincrew based in Carlisle. No doubt it is cheaper for them to "hire in" suitably qualified staff (from FL or XC?) to work or conduct their trains than to have their own staff learn the diversionary route(s). But it's unlikely that even those staff sign all of Newcastle - Carlisle - Edinburgh so trains must stop at Carlisle to change crew so may as well have public calls to avoid Glasgow passengers having to go via Edinburgh.
 

ainsworth74

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I have it on the authority of someone who absolutely knows that Edinburgh guards sign Edinburgh - Carlisle - Newcastle, Edinburgh drivers sign Edinburgh - Carlisle and Newcastle drivers/guards sign Newcastle - Carlisle. So all trains have to swap at least drivers at Carlisle.

There is no route conducting and even if they were I have no idea how XC crew would route conduct seeing as none of their services go south of Carstairs on the WCML!
 

me123

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.... so may as well have public calls to avoid Glasgow passengers having to go via Edinburgh.
This would have been a big driver for calling at Carlisle prior to the Edinburgh-Motherwell-Glasgow service going to XC, and probably still is. Glasgow to Newcastle is predominantly served via the ECML, so it makes sense to stop at Carlisle and allow passengers to connect to get to/from West Scotland. Indeed, this was (IIRC) the diversionary route advised by GNER as it was.
 
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I'm pretty certain that Newcastle-Carlisle-Edinburgh is worked by VTEC crews, as when there's problems via Berwick HST operated services often divert that way at short notice. I think it's Edinburgh depot that do it as their route card is relatively small compared to Newcastle so they can devote more time to route learning but I'm not 100%
EDIT - I started posting before Ainsworth's post appeared so I bow to your superior knowledge
 
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Class 170101

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I am surprised Newcastle don't sign all the way.

Means a passing Driver for those services to Inverness / Aberdeen lodge turns.
 

jkkne

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I have it on the authority of someone who absolutely knows that Edinburgh guards sign Edinburgh - Carlisle - Newcastle, Edinburgh drivers sign Edinburgh - Carlisle and Newcastle drivers/guards sign Newcastle - Carlisle. So all trains have to swap at least drivers at Carlisle.

There is no route conducting and even if they were I have no idea how XC crew would route conduct seeing as none of their services go south of Carstairs on the WCML!
Think XC go the bus replacement route
 

ainsworth74

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Think XC go the bus replacement route
Yup they bustitute their services leaving VTEC to run some through services. I figure one issue is capacity on the Tyne Valley. It must be pretty full with just VTEC let alone if you throw in some XC as well. Plus an HST (or dragged 225) is a better use of the line capacity with their ability to absorb many passengers compared with a Voyager.

Thanks for the enlightenment!
No worries :)
 

mm333

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Just a quick question, as the title states. How come VTEC diverts call at Carlisle? Just curious...
Plus, if you're, say, going Darlington to Glasgow, the Carlisle call means you don't have to go into Newcastle-Carlisle-Edinburgh-Glasgow.
 

sd0733

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I would also presume that as the calls are to pick up and set down then VTEC will pick up a decent share of revenue from Edinburgh to Carlisle and Carlsile to 0newcastle for the days in question? Possibly I'm wrong as not totally sure of how its all atributed but my cynical side would say that could have a bearing on the calls being made public!
 

Clansman

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Yup they bustitute their services leaving VTEC to run some through services. I figure one issue is capacity on the Tyne Valley. It must be pretty full with just VTEC let alone if you throw in some XC as well. Plus an HST (or dragged 225) is a better use of the line capacity with their ability to absorb many passengers compared with a Voyager.
That's annoying. Dare I say I used to like the Voyagers, baring in mind I was a child at the time. Used to miss them going through Perth on diverts - only Virgin ever seemed to do that. But it does make more sense that XC withdraws the service and allows VTEC HSTs to takeover instead.
 

Failed Unit

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They are also to set down, you can buy a ticket from Edinburgh - Carlisle and book on East Coast - they are also significantly slower than TPE / Virgin timetabled at 90 minutes compared to closer to 1h10 on the other operators.

I was surprised. I am using Carlisle to change from a Glasgow service which I am glad about to avoid doubling back. But that was the only reason I thought that these were "real" stops.

I would add - it gives some interesting through journeys - anyone from Inverness fancy a day in Carlisle?
 
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me123

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Interestingly, your walk up fares are much better if you're in Edinburgh and fancy a day trip to Newcastle (or vice versa) during the diversions.

The Off Peak Return costs £51.20. However, when they are diverting, you can purchase an Off Peak Day Return on both segments (£19.90 CAR-EDB, £16.20 CAR-NCL) at £36.10. You can of course do this anyway, but there's obviously a significant time disadvantage for a day trip. But when it's the only route you might as well take advantage of the savings.
 

Class 170101

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The Carlisle stop, if it hasn't been mentioned already, is for Motherwell and Glasgow Central journeys. Even though they have now transferred to XC there must still be value in East Coast stopping at Carlisle.

What is disappointing is that the XC HSTs could be used out and back. So an Up journey in the morning for East Coast between Edinburgh and Newcastle and then becoming an XC service. The reverse applies in the evening.
 

najaB

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The Carlisle stop, if it hasn't been mentioned already, is for Motherwell and Glasgow Central journeys. Even though they have now transferred to XC there must still be value in East Coast stopping at Carlisle.
Sorry, I don't quite follow what you're saying here.
 

Tetchytyke

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Apart from one train a day in each direction, Newcastle-Motherwell-Glasgow is now all operated by XC.

When GNER first started the diversions that way, Carlisle was not a published stop, although all the trains did stop there to change crew and the doors were opened. They eventually realised that this was ridiculous and started to call there under NXEC, and it's just carried on since then. The call does help with connections to Motherwell and Glasgow, it's also nice to get a proper train on the Tyne Valley rather than an overcrowded 142.

IIRC XC crew don't sign the Tyne Valley and Beattock, so XC don't run that way. There probably isn't room for them to do so anyway. Running an XC HST as an EC service would be pointless, really.
 

43167

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I would also presume that as the calls are to pick up and set down then VTEC will pick up a decent share of revenue from Edinburgh to Carlisle and Carlsile to 0newcastle for the days in question? Possibly I'm wrong as not totally sure of how its all atributed but my cynical side would say that could have a bearing on the calls being made public!
Apart from the first year, they have been fully open calls.
 

Darandio

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A The call does help with connections to Motherwell and Glasgow, it's also nice to get a proper train on the Tyne Valley rather than an overcrowded 142.
Are you just really unlucky, or is it me that is very lucky?

I've yet to get a 142 on the Tyne Valley!
 

ainsworth74

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Are you just really unlucky, or is it me that is very lucky?

I've yet to get a 142 on the Tyne Valley!
I've had both so what does that make me?!

I've also had a 142 from Darlington to Newcastle jumped off as it terminated before realising that its next service was as my train to Carlisle. That was not a happy moment...
 

Darandio

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I've had both so what does that make me?!

I've also had a 142 from Darlington to Newcastle jumped off as it terminated before realising that its next service was as my train to Carlisle. That was not a happy moment...
Probably worth doing just to stretch your legs to be honest.
 

EC123

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Crewing mainly. EDB drivers only go as far as Carlisle, with a newcastle driver taking over the CAR-NCL section. EDB guards sign EDB-CAR-NCL, freeing up NCL guards to take the London bound services from NCL, although NCL guards do take services from CAR-NCL and vice Versa
 

Tim R-T-C

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I would also presume that as the calls are to pick up and set down then VTEC will pick up a decent share of revenue from Edinburgh to Carlisle and Carlsile to 0newcastle for the days in question? Possibly I'm wrong as not totally sure of how its all atributed but my cynical side would say that could have a bearing on the calls being made public!
One suspects a few calls on the odd weekend, a couple of times a year are not going to be factored into the ticket allocation costs.
 

gimmea50anyday

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VTEC Newcastle has two links, those that go south and those that go north (who also go south!) North link guards and drivers sign carlisle as a diversion
 

Clansman

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Just a random question regarding the diverts.

Since the First Class section is at the 'London End' of the train, do TOCs try and maintain that? I.e, if a HST goes via Carlisle and ends up the 'wrong way' at Edinburgh, would Virgin go out their way to reverse that set around Carstairs or Musselbrough via Newcraighall should the set be in reverse order by the time the trains start going via Berwick again?
 
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