why does the long distance Norwich-Liverpool route still have 158's and not 170's

[swt_passenger]

To be honest I don't know why it was kept as a through route. It not only has this problem, but is also effects reliability as a problem on one side of the country can effect the other side (I remember waiting at Norwich before and hearing the train was cancelled due to problems in the Liverpool or Manchester areas).

Splitting was clearly proposed in the franchise consultation published for the East Midlands franchise.

By the time the stakeholder information was published, alongside the ITT, the DfT had backtracked and had this to say:

"Following an extensive review of alternative options, including the possibility of splitting the service at Nottingham, it is now intended that there will be no significant changes."

Most of the rail mags then reported that it was local politicians in the Nottingham area who had insisted it remained a through service.

 

[150222]

I heard that this route occasionally got 156's and 222's. Any truth in this? I propose to operate the service as 4-car with a 150/2 and a 158 working in multiple. This should solve the mixed opinions on the stock.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

I seem to remember a 222 one-off test run (on a passenger service) maybe in about 2008?

 

[barnet_fair]

I often have to get the train from Norwich to Hitchin, via Cambridge or Ely. This tends to mean I either get the 158 which is going all the way to Liverpool or the 170 which only goes to Cambridge. I much prefer the 158, the 170s out of Norwich seem a bit run down and dirty, whilst the 158 is a much more pleasant ride.

Was quite amusing the other week when both these trains were coming into Ely at the same time (due to delays), only for the vast majority to get on the 170 (it arrived 30 seconds earlier) which was stopping everywhere on the way back to Norwich rather than the 158 that was stopping only at Thetford.

 

[MCR247]

I seem to remember a 222 one-off test run (on a passenger service) maybe in about 2008?

When racing is on, EMT will run 5 car 222s on the nottingham - Liverpool section, if they have any spare of course

 

[MidnightFlyer]

When racing is on, EMT will run 5 car 222s on the nottingham - Liverpool section, if they have any spare of course

I can remember a photo of a 222 with Ely Cathedral in the background though, I know they are a favourite when the Grand National is on.

 

[ukrob]

I seem to remember a 222 one-off test run (on a passenger service) maybe in about 2008?

A 4 car 222 substituted for a 158 earlier this year. Very rare.

A seven car 222 runs on Grand National day. I have never seen or heard of a five car 222 working as mentioned in a post above though.

 

[MCR247]

Oh, I wasnt sure if it was a 5 or 7 car

 

[HSTEd]

If only we could get MML electrification soon, hybrid Cl222s displaced onto secondary express routes like Liverpool-Norwich would most likely release substantial supressed demand (everyone I know from my home town that goes to Uni in Manchester goes via Doncaster or Leeds as the train is a nightmare). But that would require massive investment to avoid them being grabbed by XC to allow it to run the services it did before Operation Princess.

 

[Pumbaa]

I heard that this route occasionally got 156's and 222's. Any truth in this? I propose to operate the service as 4-car with a 150/2 and a 158 working in multiple. This should solve the mixed opinions on the stock.

156s occasionally make it onto the service. I often see them working in pairs on Sundays.

 

[ChrisCooper]

Splitting was clearly proposed in the franchise consultation published for the East Midlands franchise.

By the time the stakeholder information was published, alongside the ITT, the DfT had backtracked and had this to say:

"Following an extensive review of alternative options, including the possibility of splitting the service at Nottingham, it is now intended that there will be no significant changes."

Most of the rail mags then reported that it was local politicians in the Nottingham area who had insisted it remained a through service.

I can't see why Nottingham would have been bothered about a split there, as I doubt there are many through passengers, particularly not local ones. Nottingham is the only station in Nottinghamshire the service calls at anyway, it runs none stop to Grantham in Lincolnshire and Alfreton is in Derbyshire. I think it would have been another good option, giving the Liverpool part to TPX (with 185s) and then Nottingham to Norwich being EMT using 158s (3 car). Still think the Manchester split would be best though. Not only sorts out the routes problems, but also takes a train off the conjested line between Picadilly and Oxford Road.

 

[HSTEd]

I can't see why Nottingham would have been bothered about a split there, as I doubt there are many through passengers, particularly not local ones. Nottingham is the only station in Nottinghamshire the service calls at anyway, it runs none stop to Grantham in Lincolnshire and Alfreton is in Derbyshire. I think it would have been another good option, giving the Liverpool part to TPX (with 185s) and then Nottingham to Norwich being EMT using 158s (3 car). Still think the Manchester split would be best though. Not only sorts out the routes problems, but also takes a train off the conjested line between Picadilly and Oxford Road.

There are quite a few actually, the few times I dared use the direct train, North TPE was a mess and there was some problem around Doncaster IIRC the massive passenger changeover occurs at Sheffield and not Nottingham.

Splitting trains is a lazy solution, how would you like all XC services to be split at Leeds or Birmingham?

 

[WillPS]

Although the 158s are far from uncomfortable now they've been refurbed, I'm not impressed by the rapidly deteriorating state of the units. On every one I go on there are bits of trim missing, particularly bits of arm rest! Looks very scruffy.

 

[northwichcat]

Oh, I wasnt sure if it was a 5 or 7 car

They use a 7 car 222 on Grand National Saturdays. A 5 car 222 isn't that much different in capacity to a 4 car 158.

 

[Nym]

But if the stock where available (and was able to work with SDO) a 6 or 8 car 158 would be even better

 

[northwichcat]

I think actually a lot of the problem is more down to the route than the stock. It's a very different route either side of Nottingham, and even more so either side of Stockport. West of Stockport it is pretty much a suburban route, with fairly regular stops and many short distance passengers, the sort of route 170s do best. From Stockport to Manchester it's more of a true long distance route, with fair distances between stops and more people travelling longer distances.

Sheffield has the advantage of the train being stopped there for a few minutes to allow the driver to swap ends. At the two Manchester stops it quite often takes longer for passengers to board and alight a 158 then the train is scheduled to be stopped for.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Splitting trains is a lazy solution, how would you like all XC services to be split at Leeds or Birmingham?

To add to that there is no announcement at stations that the train will split in two at Nottingham so passengers for Peterborough and Norwich can easily board the rear unit, unaware that only the front unit will continue beyond Nottingham.

 

[jha4ceb]

The 158s are comfy enough for a four-hour journey from Manchester to Norwich.

But I'd dread the journey far less if they had power points like ATW's 158s do.

 

[Pumbaa]

Although the 158s are far from uncomfortable now they've been refurbed, I'm not impressed by the rapidly deteriorating state of the units. On every one I go on there are bits of trim missing, particularly bits of arm rest! Looks very scruffy.

I find them comfy, especially the EMT refurbs and Inverness refurbs. But EMT job is already falling apart (DeltaFail for you) and they're now underpowered. Brilliant.

 

[Flywaver]

What a pity the cabs don't offer the same level of comfort... As for acceleration the 170s are on par with 158s.. Both could do with more grunt though...

 

[Kneedown]

There's nothing at all wrong with the EMT 158s, and they're certainly not at all clapped out. The EMT refurbishment of the units has brought them up to an excellent standard and a four carriage 158 formation, as many of the Liverpool to Norwich trains soon will be as far as Nottingham, offers more seats than a comparable four carriage 170 formation, and certainly more than a three carriage 170.

Have to disagree with you there sir.
As someone who works these units rather more regularly than any man should have to i can say that, whilst the refresh has brought them up to a nice standard cosmetically, mechanically they are seriously clapped out. You can strip out the interior of a Pacer, repaint it, give it nice seats and create a nice ambience, but it's still a Pacer at the end of the day.
170's on the Liverpool - Norwich route were not really a resounding success as they were a lot slower off the mark than 158's and the 100mph top speed counted for very little as the only place you get to 100 for any meaningful length of time was on the fast line from Grantham to Peterborough.

a four carriage 158 formation, as many of the Liverpool to Norwich trains soon will be as far as Nottingham

They should all be four coach's by now i believe, seeing as all four HLOS 156's are in service. Any short forms will be down to unit failures.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I heard that this route occasionally got 156's and 222's. Any truth in this? I propose to operate the service as 4-car with a 150/2 and a 158 working in multiple. This should solve the mixed opinions on the stock.

156's will turn up if the 158 fails for any reason, and a replacement 158 cannot be provided. It doesn't affect timings a great deal.
As previously answered, a 7 car 222 generally makes two trips on Grand National day from Nottingham to Liverpool and back (I actually worked the second trip this year) although they have stood in occasionally at other times as well. I seem to remember one or two services being 222's during last years bad weather.

 

[dk1]

Was quite amusing the other week when both these trains were coming into Ely at the same time (due to delays), only for the vast majority to get on the 170 (it arrived 30 seconds earlier) which was stopping everywhere on the way back to Norwich rather than the 158 that was stopping only at Thetford.

This happens frequently. Even if the EMT service has only just arrived as the NXEA service departs for Norwich then Cambridge box nearlly always hold the latter at North Jn to allow the 158 to go first after changing ends. This will lead to a delay of around 8 minutes to the NX due to signal sections Queen Adelaide-Shippea Hill & Brandon-Thetford.

 

[barnet_fair]

Yes, when I checked the arrivals board back at Norwich, the 170 wasn't due in for another 15 minutes. But my bus never turned up and I walked home so it was all moot anyway...

 

[sprinterguy]

Have to disagree with you there sir.
As someone who works these units rather more regularly than any man should have to i can say that, whilst the refresh has brought them up to a nice standard cosmetically, mechanically they are seriously clapped out. You can strip out the interior of a Pacer, repaint it, give it nice seats and create a nice ambience, but it's still a Pacer at the end of the day.

They should all be four coach's by now i believe, seeing as all four HLOS 156's are in service. Any short forms will be down to unit failures.

I will certainly bow to your superior knowledge, having no knowledge myself of how the mechanical side of the 158s might be fairing, but they seem pretty reliable to me, which is all I have to judge my opinion on.

Thanks for the information on the four car workings. Last time I stated with any confidence that the majority of the Liverpool to Norwich workings were four car as far as Nottingham, I discovered that fewer services were actually formed as such than I had reason to believe, so I tend to be a bit more guarded now.

 

[Kneedown]

I will certainly bow to your superior knowledge, having no knowledge myself of how the mechanical side of the 158s might be fairing, but they seem pretty reliable to me, which is all I have to judge my opinion on.

Thanks for the information on the four car workings. Last time I stated with any confidence that the majority of the Liverpool to Norwich workings were four car as far as Nottingham, I discovered that fewer services were actually formed as such than I had reason to believe, so I tend to be a bit more guarded now.

A lot of the problems are low power issues, although electrical and mechanical problems do manifest themselves. We had a final drive snap on one a couple of weeks back.
Lets say the fitters are kept busy! ;o)
I should at point clarify that a short formed Liverpool may not mean that either of the 158's has directly failed. The strengthening unit may have been pinched to cover for a failure elsewhere.

 

[tbtc]

a 7 car 222 generally makes two trips on Grand National day from Nottingham to Liverpool and back (I actually worked the second trip this year)

...in which case you would have been driving this (as seen heading south from Sheffield towards Liverpool to make the "teatime" departure for racegoers

http://www.flickr.com/photos/thebustocrookes/5604325180/

I appreciate that 158s aren't young, but I'd rather they ran on something like this route (where they could stretch their legs) then ended up on local "all stops" routes that they don't seem very suited for (IMHO)

 

[Kneedown]

...in which case you would have been driving this (as seen heading south from Sheffield towards Liverpool to make the "teatime" departure for racegoers

http://www.flickr.com/photos/thebustocrookes/5604325180/

I appreciate that 158s aren't young, but I'd rather they ran on something like this route (where they could stretch their legs) then ended up on local "all stops" routes that they don't seem very suited for (IMHO)

If thats the 16:38 off Sheffield then yep, its me.
Never seen my own tail lights before! )

 

[tbtc]

If thats the 16:38 off Sheffield then yep, its me.
Never seen my own tail lights before! )

It could have been about that time I guess, aye.

Credit to EMT for allocating longer trains for Grand National/ Skegvegas Summer Specials/ Lincoln Christmas Market btw

 

[eastmidschris]

A lot of the problems are low power issues, although electrical and mechanical problems do manifest themselves. We had a final drive snap on one a couple of weeks back.
Lets say the fitters are kept busy! ;o)
I should at point clarify that a short formed Liverpool may not mean that either of the 158's has directly failed. The strengthening unit may have been pinched to cover for a failure elsewhere.

Sorry Kneedown, it isn't ALL Liverpool - Nottingham legs that are strengthened. EMT only received 4 additional 156s after all!!

 

[Nym]

It's meant to be all peak diagrams, and when the refurb is done the're aiming to have more diagrams strengthened.

 

[eastmidschris]

It's meant to be all peak diagrams, and when the refurb is done the're aiming to have more diagrams strengthened.

Correct.