Why is it not a requirement to enter expiry date of railcard for ticket purchases?

[AdamWW]

Technically, I would argue that you cannot buy a discounted ticket unless you already posess a RailCard as you are applying a discount you are legally not yet entitled to. Online, it is unenforceable for the moment,

I don't follow that.

The legal requirement is to be able to show the appropriate railcard when using the ticket.

The railway is perfectly entitled to prevent you from buying a ticket without having a railcard but what offence do you think is being committed if someone manages to do so?

 

[MrJeeves]

I can why a ticket counter would want to see a railcard, but why didn't you just buy online or at a TVM anyway and save the hassle?

The ticket I was buying is not available at ticket machines or online. Only purchaseable at ticket offices.

 

[35B]

Real but corner case.

The industry hasn't kept up to date and has lost control of Railcards. When they started, you showed your Railcard at the ticket office and got the discount. No ifs, no buts.

Now there are no checks at all on the main purchasing channels - it's ludicrous. It's harder to get a Nectar price on milk than it is to slash a third off rail travel costs.

I bet Trainline have more accounts actively purchasing 16-17 & 16-25 Railcard tickets than there are valid Railcards in existence.

The industry should offer an alternative monthly direct debit payment, say £4, with rolling validity until the age limit passes. Bounce the payment and lose that month's validity. All checked live at time of purchase. My bet is that uptake of valid 16-25 Railcards would increase overnight.

In my day, advance purchases weren't much of a thing. They are now - and that means that this corner scenario needs to be catered for.

That's aside from a number of other scenarios I've had to deal with when purchasing for family and friends - again, purchasing in advance of travel.

 

[Ziggiesden]

I don't follow that.

The legal requirement is to be able to show the appropriate railcard when using the ticket.

The railway is perfectly entitled to prevent you from buying a ticket without having a railcard but what offence do you think is being committed if someone manages to do so?

It has created a two-tier system. Online purchases now have an economic advantage that others have to pay for as they ae getting that additional validity for free. Those, who are unable to or do not wish to buy online to keep wealth and jobs in the UK are penalised as they must have a RailCard that is valid to buy from a person.

It should be noted that should a RailCard expire at any point during their journey we advise them to ensure renewal before travel.

As an example, would you give a Customer a staff discount at Tesco for their shopping, that they will collect next week, on the off-chance they will actually gain employment in the future? I wouldn’t.

 

[Ziggiesden]

That sounds like you're making up your own rules.

A screenshot is not valid for travel, but it shows the person is either gifted with PhotoShop or indeed has a RailCard. We give the benefit of the doubt rather than make them come back another day. We have the power of discretion which effectively means we can do what we like to benefit the Passenger. In the case of doubt, we apply the rules Strictu Sensu.

 

[Lewisham2221]

The whole fares/ticketing system - not just railcards - needs a complete overhaul to tighten up on the opportunities for fraudulent/ticketless travel and also to reduce the opportunities for innocent people to make the genuine mistakes that could land them with a conviction or a very expensive out of court settlement. However, such a reform would almost certainly have to remove some of the flexibility, loopholes and other such "freedoms" that those "in the know" can use to their advantage, and also no doubt see some fares increasing (and maybe some fares reducing). As such, I don't expect such reforms would harness much support from these forums.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

There is no way the train companies are going to drop the price of tickets by a third.

It has been done. Central Trains reduced the prices of many walk-up off-peak tickets early in their franchise to "under a fiver" and "under a tenner". They even promoted it with TV advertising:

Contemporary report: https://www.railfuture.org.uk/east/rail-east/RailEast-Issue-097-September-1997.pdf (page 2)

A Peterborough–Birmingham CDR was £9.90. Allowing for inflation, that would now be £19. In fact, to make the same journey now on a walk-up ticket is £50.80.

 

[Ziggiesden]

The whole fares/ticketing system - not just railcards - needs a complete overhaul to tighten up on the opportunities for fraudulent/ticketless travel and also to reduce the opportunities for innocent people to make the genuine mistakes that could land them with a conviction or a very expensive out of court settlement. However, such a reform would almost certainly have to remove some of the flexibility, loopholes and other such "freedoms" that those "in the know" can use to their advantage, and also no doubt see some fares increasing (and maybe some fares reducing). As such, I don't expect such reforms would harness much support from these forums.

Absoloutely correct.

 

[Ziggiesden]

I don't follow that.

The legal requirement is to be able to show the appropriate railcard when using the ticket.

The railway is perfectly entitled to prevent you from buying a ticket without having a railcard but what offence do you think is being committed if someone manages to do so?

"2.5 You cannot buy discounted tickets unless you can produce your 16-17 Saver."

If we look at the conditions of this particular RailCard then it is basically saying you must have a RailCard to get a discount. In RailCard it is meant a valid RailCard, at the time of purchase. However, if there is a gap between the RailCard expiring and the date of travel you would need to renew before travel. In this case, you are saving a bit, if not using the RailCard meantime but online purchasers can save more especially with a long booking horizon like the Caledonian Sleeper.

The intent is really fraud prevention but both British Rail, and the various bodies thereafter have never totally plugged the hole. Probably never will. Some win and some lose. This is the nature of the game.

 

[talldave]

In my day, advance purchases weren't much of a thing. They are now - and that means that this corner scenario needs to be catered for.

That's aside from a number of other scenarios I've had to deal with when purchasing for family and friends - again, purchasing in advance of travel.

It doesn't need to be catered for, you want it to be catered for. If the rule was, you have to be 16 to get the 16 discount, that's the rule. Wait 'til you're 16 to start reaping the benefits of a ludicrously generous discount scheme.

It's the same buying for others. I shop for relatives - if they want their discounts I need their discount card.

 

[Lewisham2221]

In my day, advance purchases weren't much of a thing. They are now - and that means that this corner scenario needs to be catered for.

That's aside from a number of other scenarios I've had to deal with when purchasing for family and friends - again, purchasing in advance of travel.

Perhaps you should be allowed to purchase a Railcard upto, say, 12 weeks in advance - so long as you will meet the criteria for the Railcard on the date that it becomes valid? And subsequently allow advanced ticket purchases within that same window, for travel withing the validity of the Railcard. Of course, that would also add yet another layer of complexity to the Railcard schemes and potentially result in people trying to use discounted tickets in the 12 week period where they are not valid for travel.

 

[Sealink]

"You need a Railcard to use this ticket. Enter expiry date here dd/mm/yy"
If you don't have this, tick the 2nd box"
YOU HAVE TICKED THE SECOND BOX. GET A RAILCARD NOW!

Or words to that effect

Perfect.

 

[Ziggiesden]

I think it's hard to describe the restrictions you (or your TOC?) are putting on your own ticket sales can be described as a "ploy" to get rid of your role... If such archaic and passenger-unfriendly rules weren't in place, this wouldn't even be a concern.

I would see no issue with asking for the Railcard before sale, but the passenger shouldn't be denied the sale of the ticket based on your own rules if they are not buying for immediate travel and do not have the Railcard.

Alas, it is not the only trick:

Club 50

If you're over 50, you can discover Scotland with Club 50 for only £15 per year and enjoy exclusive flat fares and discounts.

www.scotrail.co.uk

"Get even bigger discounts when you buy Off-Peak and Advance tickets online. Just select ‘Club 50 Web’ from the list of Railcards for your 20% online discount.

Buying Off-Peak and Advance tickets at the station, or over the phone? You’ll still save 10% on the fares - just make sure you ask for the Club 50 discount."

 

[MrJeeves]

Alas, it is not the only trick:

Club 50

If you're over 50, you can discover Scotland with Club 50 for only £15 per year and enjoy exclusive flat fares and discounts.

www.scotrail.co.uk

"Get even bigger discounts when you buy Off-Peak and Advance tickets online. Just select ‘Club 50 Web’ from the list of Railcards for your 20% online discount.

Buying Off-Peak and Advance tickets at the station, or over the phone? You’ll still save 10% on the fares - just make sure you ask for the Club 50 discount."

It's a total mystery as to why a TOC would offer a bigger discount through a purchase method that costs them less to run!

 

[Ziggiesden]

It's a total mystery as to why a TOC would offer a bigger discount through a purchase method that costs them less to run!

Perhaps, it will long term, once they close all the Booking Offices and there is no one left to properly advise the Passenger. However, at the moment, we are all paying for both Retail Channels.

Sadly, many do not have Booking Offices with staff who have passed on their experience onto those coming in behind them because they closed.

However, will the fares keep going up? Will it be less or more?

We shall see what transpires.

As an example:

The Off Peak Day Return from Falkirk to Edinburgh is £12.10. It is not valid for return at certain times in the afternoon or evening - you have to pay the excess up to the Anytime Day Return, if using Tap and Pay. An online system will not tell you to buy the ticket to Shawfair, so getting an Off Peak Return also priced at £12.10 that has no restriction after 09:16 so you do not have to pay the excess. When you read the T&Cs and website information it suggests a “best value fare” will be given. Keep reading – it then tells you some of the ways it won’t. It doesn’t mention this one though.

 

[Harpo]

Indeed. I just bought a £36 bottle of whisky at Tesco for £24 with my "loyalty" card. And that is not a unique experience

33% off a single product giving an £8 discount by presenting a valid card, versus…..

33% off of everything and an uncapped level of discount just by ticking a box saying ‘I’ve got a valid card’.

Bonkers.

 

[Hadders]

33% off a single product giving an £8 discount by presenting a valid card, versus…..

33% off of everything and an uncapped level of discount just by ticking a box saying ‘I’ve got a valid card’.

Bonkers.

Supermarket comparisons rarely work, unless for joke or amusement purposes.

In the case of Clubcard the card has to be present at the till to get the deal. If ordering online it has to be linked to your online account.

You do not have to be in possession of the Clubcard when consuming the product!

 

[AlterEgo]

You do not have to be in possession of the Clubcard when consuming the product!

That would be a really good idea for the railway and bring them into line with most other customer-friendly businesses, who either trust their customers, or accept a little loss drops through the gaps here and there.

 

[AdamWW]

33% off a single product giving an £8 discount by presenting a valid card, versus…..

33% off of everything and an uncapped level of discount just by ticking a box saying ‘I’ve got a valid card’.

Bonkers.

But you've missed out the bit where you have to be able to present the railcard when travelling.

I could get 50% off next time I get the train without even ticking a box by just buying a child fare.
(Should an upload of a birth certificate be required to buy a child ticket on line?)

I could get 100% off without having to do anything at all by just getting on.
(Not sure what you'd want done about that? Barriers at every station in the country?)

It all works until I get my ticket checked.

So let's try again. 33% off everything and an uncapped level of discount just by ticking a box saying ‘I’ve got a valid card’. - and the possibility of a large penalty or even prosecution if you get caught.

 

[Harpo]

So let's try again. 33% off everything and an uncapped level of discount just by ticking a box saying ‘I’ve got a valid card’. - and the possibility of a large penalty or even prosecution if you get caught.

If.

 

[Jim the Jim]

I am opposed to anything that adds extra steps to the ticket buying process. It's one reason I still prefer TVMs, you just select your destination and ticket type, and then tap your card, without having to go through all the extra faff (select a journey there and back, choose a seat, put in card details ...) that websites put you through.

 

[saismee]

You do not have to be in possession of the Clubcard when consuming the product!

Don't give them ideas!!

It all works until I get my ticket checked.

I've only had my railcard checked twice. Once for buying a day ranger, once for using it. It's unbelievably easy to get away with having an expired/invalid railcard. Not having a ticket is much more obvious.

 

[35B]

It doesn't need to be catered for, you want it to be catered for. If the rule was, you have to be 16 to get the 16 discount, that's the rule. Wait 'til you're 16 to start reaping the benefits of a ludicrously generous discount scheme.

It's the same buying for others. I shop for relatives - if they want their discounts I need their discount card.

You may want to think about whether the railway is trying to promote travel, or act as an enforcer of rules. If I, as a parent, want to buy travel in advance for which my child will have a railcard at the point of travel, enforcing a pre-purchase requirement for a railcard I cannot buy is a 100% price rise against the proper price.

Perhaps you should be allowed to purchase a Railcard upto, say, 12 weeks in advance - so long as you will meet the criteria for the Railcard on the date that it becomes valid? And subsequently allow advanced ticket purchases within that same window, for travel withing the validity of the Railcard. Of course, that would also add yet another layer of complexity to the Railcard schemes and potentially result in people trying to use discounted tickets in the 12 week period where they are not valid for travel.

That would be a fair compromise, but with the obvious enforcement issues you mention.

 

[AdamWW]

If.

It's clear from this forum that it's not exactly unheard of.

You may want to think about whether the railway is trying to promote travel, or act as an enforcer of rules. If I, as a parent, want to buy travel in advance for which my child will have a railcard at the point of travel, enforcing a pre-purchase requirement for a railcard I cannot buy is a 100% price rise against the proper price.

That would be a fair compromise, but with the obvious enforcement issues you mention.

I suspect that if it had always been the case that online purchases required proof of holding the relevant railcard as with buying in person, most of us would just take it for granted, with parhaps a bit of grumbling about it leading to some unfair situations when buying advances.

 

[35B]

I suspect that if it had always been the case that online purchases required proof of holding the relevant railcard as with buying in person, most of us would just take it for granted, with parhaps a bit of grumbling about it leading to some unfair situations when buying advances.

I suspect you underestimate the grumbling that would occur, and the damage (especially for 16-17) that would result to a government policy agenda.

 

[AdamWW]

I suspect you underestimate the grumbling that would occur, and the damage (especially for 16-17) that would result to a government policy agenda.

Perhaps.

But I expect we can both think of things that would be far more unpopular if suddenly introduced than they are now just because they've always been like that.

For example if the 16-17 "railcard" was abolished now, I think some people would be a lot more unhappy than they were before it was invented.

 

[MrJeeves]

It's one reason I still prefer TVMs, you just select your destination and ticket type, and then tap your card, without having to go through all the extra faff (select a journey there and back, choose a seat, put in card details ...) that websites put you through.

But not for long!

 

[lewismachyach]

Because one may want to buy tickets for the future, and buy the railcard in the future, thus ensuring no wasted validity. Why add on purchasing time for the rest of use to make up for the minority who can't be bothered to check an expiry date?

Perhaps you should be allowed to purchase a Railcard upto, say, 12 weeks in advance - so long as you will meet the criteria for the Railcard on the date that it becomes valid? And subsequently allow advanced ticket purchases within that same window, for travel withing the validity of the Railcard. Of course, that would also add yet another layer of complexity to the Railcard schemes and potentially result in people trying to use discounted tickets in the 12 week period where they are not valid for travel.

Maybe this is a silly suggestion, but it seems like it should be a relatively simple one to implement: specifically using Trip.com's app (not the website), you can already buy a railcard and specify a date up to about 12 weeks after the purchase for the railcard to begin its period of validity (possibly just a matter of Trip.com not issuing the railcard until that date). Other sites such as TrainSplit's site and the official railcard website lack this option despite Trip.com's development team clearly seeing some value in implementing the feature (and, well, National Express provide the same option for their Coachcards too). I realise that digital railcards are usually issued instantly, but I suspect many still buy theirs early only out of financial convenience at a particular moment or out of a desire to have everything for their future trips prepared in advance, despite it strictly costing them more in wasted validity. Why not simply have more/all railcard vendors provide the option to buy a railcard to become valid only on a future date?

Especially with the Disabled Person's Railcard, and physical plastic railcards, only being available from the official website - and considering it was mentioned earlier that the website already allows ordering a new 16-17 Saver or 16-25 Railcard up to 14 days in advance of a child's 16th birthday, the necessary logistics to allow such advance purchases, including for physical railcards, must already be implemented, the choice for the customer is just missing. As-is, someone moving from a 16-17 Saver to a Disabled Person's Railcard, for example, is caught between a desire to buy their new railcard early and so losing the overlapping validity, or buying it as soon before making a journey using the new railcard as possible, then running the risk of eligibility paperwork processing (which is said to take "up to 5 working days") or delivery taking a little longer than expected; which would be averted entirely with this improvement. Maybe that's a niche scenario, but I'm still sure many using, say, Friends & Family Railcards would find use in the utility too, and a basic implementation could help make future solutions much more feasible or difficult to argue against.

 

[35B]

Perhaps.

But I expect we can both think of things that would be far more unpopular if suddenly introduced than they are now just because they've always been like that.

For example if the 16-17 "railcard" was abolished now, I think some people would be a lot more unhappy than they were before it was invented.

I quite agree - but those are the cases that these marketing initiatives need to consider properly if they're not to rebound.

 

[Adam Williams]

Other sites such as TrainSplit's site and the official railcard website lack this option despite Trip.com's development team clearly seeing some value in implementing the feature (and, well, National Express provide the same option for their Coachcards too).

Why not simply have more/all railcard vendors provide the option to buy a railcard to become valid only on a future date?

We didn't implement it because the specification explicitly says you're not allowed to do that.



Trip.com clearly saw some value in ignoring the rules. Again.

In my view, holding onto the funds and then pretending it only becomes a new Railcard on the start date doesn't feel in spirit with the spec either.