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Why is Marlow a nightmare to electrify?

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pdeaves

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Can’t they move the buffers by dispensation against standards for a start?
The buffer stops are already non-compliant.

In other issues, IF overhead electrification were chosen, there could well be issues at Marina level crossing. There is much use by sailing boats on trailers. I suspect NR would not want to take the risk of one of them touching the OLE. There is a limit to how hight the wire could be and that could potentially be less than the highest boat.
 
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MarlowDonkey

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The picture from Wikipedia shows a 2 car Turbo in the Down platform, to give an idea (picture shows 2 car turbo in platform, with small amount of length remaining at each end)
There's not a lot of space at Marlow either, it was probably designed so a 3 car 117 could fit, but nothing longer without a rebuild.

The other possible problem is access to the boatyards and river bank between the track and the Thames. Think dinghy masts.

Maidenhead to Bourne End could accommodate at least a 4car 387, but it means using two units all day, where currently one suffices outside peak hours.
 

SynthD

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For a wild idea: two trains of two carriages are connected at Marlow and Maidenhead but outside of Bourne End they disconnect and use both platforms. This would probably require on the move disconnect and reconnect, which isn’t allowed and I’d be interested in seeing a video of it done smoothly anywhere.
 

The Planner

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For a wild idea: two trains of two carriages are connected at Marlow and Maidenhead but outside of Bourne End they disconnect and use both platforms. This would probably require on the move disconnect and reconnect, which isn’t allowed and I’d be interested in seeing a video of it done smoothly anywhere.
The layout at Bourne End doesnt allow that, only the short platform can get to Marlow.
 

Ken H

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Why bother. Just run DMU. I can think of loads of lines more deserving than this backwater.
 

Ianno87

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Why bother. Just run DMU. I can think of loads of lines more deserving than this backwater.

The point would be removing the "diesel island" of these branches and going to a wholly EMU fleet (with associated cost saving). Assuming Greenford went over to Chiltern operation.
 

adamedwards

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Class 384 ie a 484 but running off 25kv overhead plus batteries with maybe part electricfiation of each branch to help recharging. Build a small fleet for all the branches including Greenfield to get an economy of scale.
 

popeter45

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Class 384 ie a 484 but running off 25kv overhead plus batteries with maybe part electricfiation of each branch to help recharging. Build a small fleet for all the branches including Greenfield to get an economy of scale.
do they even have the space for the transformer and pantograph?
thinking about it would somthing like a fleet of 398 work better for these lines?
 

HST43257

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Get battery 230s for all branch lines needing 2/4 cars. Basically GWR can have a fleet of 6 (5 in use) for Cornwall and 4 (3 in use) for Thames Valley
 

David Goddard

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Overhead power appears to be the effective solution for the branch in general, and if it was a simple branch like Henley then they could probably have all been wired along with the GWML and be running with Cl387s today.

Whilst wiring to Bourne End would be straightforward, the Marlow end of the route presents issues, in the form of the short platform at Bourne End, and based on posts above the safety concerns with clearance at crossings. A self propelled two car train therefore remains the solution to get to the riverside terminus. Usage seems to show that only one train is needed on the whole route off peak, so something needs to be able to do both, which leads to the "need" being something like a two car EMU, with alternative power for the Marlow stub. The desire to lose diesel then leads us batteries to enable them to reach Marlow, presumably charging on the run down to Bourne End.

Off peak, such a train operating on the branch would spend forty minutes in the hour under the wires, which should with modern developments be enough to charge the batteries for the twenty minutes it takes to get to Marlow and back. The challenge will be at peak times, where a set is presently orphaned at the Marlow end. At best it can sit at Bourne End for ten minutes on each cycle - would this be enough to power a 20 minute round trip? One can assume that if wired a 387 can run the Maidenhead to Bourne End part of the shuttle at peak times.

Its clearly not within the realms of EMU development to design and build 2 car overhead powered unit (they managed it sixty years ago) but there has never seemed to have been a need for any more since, but no reason why it could not be done, coupled with battery developments, but with so few units required is the major hurdle really the cost of developing such a small microfleet, effectively two trains, for a utilisation of 50%?
 

Mikey C

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Overhead power appears to be the effective solution for the branch in general, and if it was a simple branch like Henley then they could probably have all been wired along with the GWML and be running with Cl387s today.

Whilst wiring to Bourne End would be straightforward, the Marlow end of the route presents issues, in the form of the short platform at Bourne End, and based on posts above the safety concerns with clearance at crossings. A self propelled two car train therefore remains the solution to get to the riverside terminus. Usage seems to show that only one train is needed on the whole route off peak, so something needs to be able to do both, which leads to the "need" being something like a two car EMU, with alternative power for the Marlow stub. The desire to lose diesel then leads us batteries to enable them to reach Marlow, presumably charging on the run down to Bourne End.

Off peak, such a train operating on the branch would spend forty minutes in the hour under the wires, which should with modern developments be enough to charge the batteries for the twenty minutes it takes to get to Marlow and back. The challenge will be at peak times, where a set is presently orphaned at the Marlow end. At best it can sit at Bourne End for ten minutes on each cycle - would this be enough to power a 20 minute round trip? One can assume that if wired a 387 can run the Maidenhead to Bourne End part of the shuttle at peak times.

Its clearly not within the realms of EMU development to design and build 2 car overhead powered unit (they managed it sixty years ago) but there has never seemed to have been a need for any more since, but no reason why it could not be done, coupled with battery developments, but with so few units required is the major hurdle really the cost of developing such a small microfleet, effectively two trains, for a utilisation of 50%?
Couldn't they just install some wires at Marlow station to charge the waiting trains there, and just use battery power for the run into Bourne End?
 

SouthEastBuses

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Overhead power appears to be the effective solution for the branch in general, and if it was a simple branch like Henley then they could probably have all been wired along with the GWML and be running with Cl387s today.

Whilst wiring to Bourne End would be straightforward, the Marlow end of the route presents issues, in the form of the short platform at Bourne End, and based on posts above the safety concerns with clearance at crossings. A self propelled two car train therefore remains the solution to get to the riverside terminus. Usage seems to show that only one train is needed on the whole route off peak, so something needs to be able to do both, which leads to the "need" being something like a two car EMU, with alternative power for the Marlow stub. The desire to lose diesel then leads us batteries to enable them to reach Marlow, presumably charging on the run down to Bourne End.

Off peak, such a train operating on the branch would spend forty minutes in the hour under the wires, which should with modern developments be enough to charge the batteries for the twenty minutes it takes to get to Marlow and back. The challenge will be at peak times, where a set is presently orphaned at the Marlow end. At best it can sit at Bourne End for ten minutes on each cycle - would this be enough to power a 20 minute round trip? One can assume that if wired a 387 can run the Maidenhead to Bourne End part of the shuttle at peak times.

Its clearly not within the realms of EMU development to design and build 2 car overhead powered unit (they managed it sixty years ago) but there has never seemed to have been a need for any more since, but no reason why it could not be done, coupled with battery developments, but with so few units required is the major hurdle really the cost of developing such a small microfleet, effectively two trains, for a utilisation of 50%?
Not to mention, we do already have 2 car EMUs in the UK - the class 456 and 466.
However, the problem with these is that they are third rail with no overhead capability.
 

Aictos

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Or they could just convert a batch of Class 456s to AC and use them as bi mode units eg battery and OHL.
 

WideRanger

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Not to mention, we do already have 2 car EMUs in the UK - the class 456 and 466.
However, the problem with these is that they are third rail with no overhead capability.
Could there be a mash up between the pantograph cars of withdrawn 365s and 466s to create a 3-car train that fits?
 

NSEFAN

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If we are having to come up with a custom solution, would a small fleet of 2 car AC units (some variant on the 387s) not be easier? You get a new unit which is compatible with the existing 387 fleet, allowing for easier maintenance and operations. Bespoke units that get locked into a short branch only adds complication.
 

popeter45

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If we are having to come up with a custom solution, would a small fleet of 2 car AC units (some variant on the 387s) not be easier? You get a new unit which is compatible with the existing 387 fleet, allowing for easier maintenance and operations. Bespoke units that get locked into a short branch only adds complication.
issue is the electrostar is no longer in production so would need to be a newer model such as the Aventra
 

MarkyT

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Stadler Citylink tram trains could work to Marlow, reversing at Bourne End. The high floor 50m 25kV/battery models being supplied to South Wales Metro seem most suitable. System extensions might then be feasible under tramway rules.
 

bspahh

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Build a new station in place of Donkey Lane, so that trains can go to Marlow without a turn around. The average house price along there looks to be ~ £1.5m, and the present occupiers might have other opinions, but residents of Marlow would approve.
 

The Planner

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Build a new station in place of Donkey Lane, so that trains can go to Marlow without a turn around. The average house price along there looks to be ~ £1.5m, and the present occupiers might have other opinions, but residents of Marlow would approve.
You would have to permanently decide that Bourne End to Wycombe is not a proposition with that.
 

bspahh

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You would have to permanently decide that Bourne End to Wycombe is not a proposition with that.

(checks this is in Speculative Ideas) ...

I think that is already pretty likely. It would need to go under the M40 and a replacement bridge over London Road in Loudwater.

If a new station was built at Bourne End, the site of the current one could be left in case the line to Wycombe did get reopened.
 

SouthEastBuses

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If it weren't for the absence of 25kv future proof carriages, then a Southeastern 466 would be a perfect solution for the Marlow line. Not to mention, the 466 is the EMU version of the 165 so GWR would have a lot in common.

I mean, seeing that most trains only do Maidenhead Marlow, and considering the class 387s are dual-voltage, could the Marlow line be electrified with third rail instead? Using class 466s from Southeastern (the latter could use its 717s to replace the 466s, or just order a new fleet of 3/4 car EMU for replacement)
 

SouthEastBuses

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If it weren't for the absence of 25kv future proof carriages, then a Southeastern 466 would be a perfect solution for the Marlow line. Not to mention, the 466 is the EMU version of the 165 so GWR would have a lot in common.

I mean, seeing that most trains only do Maidenhead Marlow, and considering the class 387s are dual-voltage, could the Marlow line be electrified with third rail instead? Using class 466s from Southeastern (the latter could use its 717s to replace the 466s, or just order a new fleet of 3/4 car EMU for replacement)

I meant class 707, not 717 btw
 

Non Multi

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(checks this is in Speculative Ideas) ...

I think that is already pretty likely. It would need to go under the M40 and a replacement bridge over London Road in Loudwater.

If a new station was built at Bourne End, the site of the current one could be left in case the line to Wycombe did get reopened.
An underpass for the railway was built under the M40 at Loudwater. (Photo, from the Marlow Maidenhead Passengers' Assoc): https://mmpa.org.uk/gallery/gallery3/p09.jpeg

Aside from that provision as previously stated, sadly too much of the alignment has been built upon.
 

MarlowDonkey

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An underpass for the railway was built under the M40 at Loudwater.

The line to Wycombe remained open until 1970 which was during the same era as the Motorway design and construction.

Running the line along the riverbank was presumably the cheapest solution for the Marlow Railway of 1873. Bourne End station was already in place. The village of Bourne End wasn't, or not in its present place, so a complex curve and entering the station from the north, facing Maidenhead might have been feasible at a price.
 

Bletchleyite

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An underpass for the railway was built under the M40 at Loudwater. (Photo, from the Marlow Maidenhead Passengers' Assoc): https://mmpa.org.uk/gallery/gallery3/p09.jpeg

Aside from that provision as previously stated, sadly too much of the alignment has been built upon.

Might be feasible as light rail if you accepted some street running. Indeed, light rail with 750VDC OHLE could well actually be a good plan even if you don't go to Wycombe - trams tend to be shorter than trains, so that's an option for a short EMU. Possibly a good plan for Windsor too.
 
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