Why is Marlow a nightmare to electrify?

[SouthEastBuses]

Might be feasible as light rail if you accepted some street running. Indeed, light rail with 750VDC OHLE could well actually be a good plan even if you don't go to Wycombe - trams tend to be shorter than trains, so that's an option for a short EMU. Possibly a good plan for Windsor too.

Maybe light rail acting as tram trains (like that one line in Sheffield that goes to Rotherham) could work, running all the way to London Paddington?

 

[Mikey C]

Might be feasible as light rail if you accepted some street running. Indeed, light rail with 750VDC OHLE could well actually be a good plan even if you don't go to Wycombe - trams tend to be shorter than trains, so that's an option for a short EMU. Possibly a good plan for Windsor too.

Agreed, light rail is the perfect solution for a lot of these short connecting routes

Not sure I can see the viability of reconnecting Bourne End to Wycombe anyway, as the vast majority of Chiltern passengers would happily continue into Marylebone anyway, or indeed Old Oak Common. Or use the A404

However the link between Marlow/Bourne End and Crossrail at Maidenhead is crucial, maybe with light rail the vehicles could curve directly around the corner from Marlow to the bridge over the Thames?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not sure I can see the viability of reconnecting Bourne End to Wycombe anyway, as the vast majority of Chiltern passengers would happily continue into Marylebone anyway, or indeed Old Oak Common. Or use the A404

I'd be surprised if there wasn't a bus service, anyway. But clearly in those parts one uses one of one's Range Rovers or Jaguars; public transport is only for going to London.

However the link between Marlow/Bourne End and Crossrail at Maidenhead is crucial, maybe with light rail the vehicles could curve directly around the corner from Marlow to the bridge over the Thames?

That did occur to me that you could with light rail very easily lop the reverse out, as LRVs can corner much more tightly than heavy rail vehicles.

To be honest, I think 750VDC overhead light rail (basically high floor tram-type vehicles similar to what Metrolink use) would be a good fit for electrification of all of the Thames Valley branches, at least where through operation is no longer a thing or never was. That would allow some commonality of fleet which would save having too many spares, though thought would need to be given as to how to run them ECS on the mainline to get to/from wherever they are maintained, perhaps battery operation if fitting a 25kV transformer would be too difficult. Or perhaps a small diesel genset and fuel tank which would only be used for the mainline ECS positioning move at antisocial-o-clock so wouldn't need to be huge or enable high speed running.

Edit: the Welsh Stadler Citylinks (which would also be ideal) are 25kV capable so that solves that problem, and also allows for the branches to be done at 25kV too if it's cheaper. So a small fleet of those, some knitting attached to the mainline (these branches are all far shorter than Windermere) and you're sorted.

 

[Non Multi]

Agreed, light rail is the perfect solution for a lot of these short connecting routes

Not sure I can see the viability of reconnecting Bourne End to Wycombe anyway, as the vast majority of Chiltern passengers would happily continue into Marylebone anyway, or indeed Old Oak Common. Or use the A404

However the link between Marlow/Bourne End and Crossrail at Maidenhead is crucial, maybe with light rail the vehicles could curve directly around the corner from Marlow to the bridge over the Thames?

2 bus operators run 3 slowish local routes between Bourne End and Wycombe.

7 years ago First Berks tried running a fast bus service X9 (Maidenhead-Wycombe) that used the A404, by-passing Marlow. No publicity for the new route led to no passengers, and it was swiftly cancelled.

Oxford Bus Company was ready to launch the hourly The Airline X50 that offered a 30 minute journey between Maidenhead and Wycombe. Unfortunately it was intended to start in May 2020, funded by Heathrow Airport. Initially it was postponed, but Heathrow have since pulled all funding, so that's dead too.

 

[JonathanH]

Maybe light rail acting as tram trains (like that one line in Sheffield that goes to Rotherham) could work, running all the way to London Paddington?

a good fit for electrification of all of the Thames Valley branches, at least where through operation is no longer a thing

Through operation of any of the Thames Valley branches to Paddington (other than Heathrow obviously) will not be a thing ever again with the intensive Crossrail service in place, even if electrification happened.

In particular, there is no chance of tram trains running to Paddington.

 

[packermac]

I fail to see the business case that would justify the spend on infrastructure.
If the government do not want to even pay to electrify mainlines then branches just will not happen.

 

[SynthD]

I fail to see the business case that would justify the spend on infrastructure.
If the government do not want to even pay to electrify mainlines then branches just will not happen.

Mainlines need electrification capable of high speeds (was the GWR line spec for 140?), whereas this line could have an easier limit like 40, if it meant more intensive services to keep up the frequency.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Through operation of any of the Thames Valley branches to Paddington (other than Heathrow obviously) will not be a thing ever again with the intensive Crossrail service in place, even if electrification happened.

In particular, there is no chance of tram trains running to Paddington.

All the more reason why a light rail solution for the branches would be a good thing. I'd propose 25kV compatibility simply for moving the vehicles around (so you don't need a spare one per branch and so they can be maintained at one depot) not for running to Paddington.

 

[SouthEastBuses]

All the more reason why a light rail solution for the branches would be a good thing. I'd propose 25kV compatibility simply for moving the vehicles around (so you don't need a spare one per branch and so they can be maintained at one depot) not for running to Paddington.

If you are going to convert to light rail, why not have some street running in Maidenhead and Marlow too?

 

[mrgreen]

All the more reason why a light rail solution for the branches would be a good thing. I'd propose 25kV compatibility simply for moving the vehicles around (so you don't need a spare one per branch and so they can be maintained at one depot) not for running to Paddington.

Another reason for going for 25kV, rather than dc is the hope that you can just feed it from the existing mainline supply, saving the expense of new supply points. And if the mainline juice is inadequate to do that, then the new 25kV supply points on the branches will provide necessary back-up to the mainline supply in case of faults or maintenance down-time. And the mainline supply provide a back-up to the branches. If one is dc and the other 25kV ac, then back-up will only be possible with expensive additional equipment.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Another reason for going for 25kV, rather than dc is the hope that you can just feed it from the existing mainline supply, saving the expense of new supply points. And if the mainline juice is inadequate to do that, then the new 25kV supply points on the branches will provide necessary back-up to the mainline supply in case of faults or maintenance down-time. And the mainline supply provide a back-up to the branches. If one is dc and the other 25kV ac, then back-up will only be possible with expensive additional equipment.

Yes, true.

Either way it does seem to me that the Stadler units being built for TfW would be ideal for the job.

 

[JonathanH]

If you are going to convert to light rail, why not have some street running in Maidenhead and Marlow too?

Street running in Marlow? Where to? Why?

 

[SouthEastBuses]

Street running in Marlow? Where to? Why?

Spittal and West Streets, and reason for this is to improve accessibility so that residents and visitors don't have to walk 1 km (or 10 minutes) from the station to the town centre.

 

[Bald Rick]

Another reason for going for 25kV, rather than dc is the hope that you can just feed it from the existing mainline supply, saving the expense of new supply points. And if the mainline juice is inadequate to do that, then the new 25kV supply points on the branches will provide necessary back-up to the mainline supply in case of faults or maintenance down-time. And the mainline supply provide a back-up to the branches. If one is dc and the other 25kV ac, then back-up will only be possible with expensive additional equipment.

The only reason for going for 25kV would be to have 25kV vehicles that could then get to depot via the main line. That, however is enough reason to do it!

In an alternative world, you could feed a 750v DC supply from the 25kV supply, you’d just need a transformer / rectifier between the two (trackside, rather than on the tram). In the unlikely event that you needed an all new grid supply, then it would be cheaper to get a small scale supply for the 750vDC than for 25kV AC, as you could tap into the local 11kv. The load a tram tram takes wouldn’t be much more than a few electric cars on a supercharger. The GWML doesn’t need any more back up, it has plenty, and spending tens of millions on a massive grid supply point of the scale needed to offer that back up would be, frankly, a waste of cash.

 

[SouthEastBuses]

Anyway, I think the most sensible option is the following: electrify the branch with 25 kV OHLE, shorten the current GWR 387s from 4 to 3 carriages and use them as the new Marlow line allocation. GWR can then either get some new or surplus EMUs (looking at you, Class 365) as 387 replacements on the current duties, or convert one of its, by then, redundant 769s back to 319s.

In the rush hour for extra capacity (between 07:00 and 09:00 and 16:00 and 18:00), the services could be extended to London Paddington, calling at Slough, Hayes & Harlington and Ealing Broadway. I would say having a direct Marlow-London train at all times is a good idea - but with Crossrail, outside of rush hours, I am sceptical as to whether there would be any demand or not. At Maidenhead, they could be attached (and viceversa) to another 3-car Electrostar which would be originating from Henley-on-Thames (again, also another line that should be electrified soon in my opinion).

And yes, as I said before, you can have 3 car Electrostars - such trains already exist: Southeastern Class 375/3 and Southern Class 377/3.

Light rail / Tram is good, however if you are going to spend that amount of money in converting the Marlow branch line into a new tram line then you might as well incorporate some street running at either ends of the route, especially in the case of Marlow, to improve accessibility as I said in the previous post.

 

[SouthEastBuses]

Might be feasible as light rail if you accepted some street running. Indeed, light rail with 750VDC OHLE could well actually be a good plan even if you don't go to Wycombe - trams tend to be shorter than trains, so that's an option for a short EMU. Possibly a good plan for Windsor too.

Extension to Windsor - I love that idea and it would be awesome! But, will the expensive cost be justified for demand in travel between Windsor and Maidenhead? (& beyond)

 

[popeter45]

Anyway, I think the most sensible option is the following: electrify the branch with 25 kV OHLE, shorten the current GWR 387s from 4 to 3 carriages and use them as the new Marlow line allocation. GWR can then either get some new or surplus EMUs (looking at you, Class 365) as 387 replacements on the current duties, or convert one of its, by then, redundant 769s back to 319s.

In the rush hour for extra capacity (between 07:00 and 09:00 and 16:00 and 18:00), the services could be extended to London Paddington, calling at Slough, Hayes & Harlington and Ealing Broadway. I would say having a direct Marlow-London train at all times is a good idea - but with Crossrail, outside of rush hours, I am sceptical as to whether there would be any demand or not. At Maidenhead, they could be attached (and viceversa) to another 3-car Electrostar which would be originating from Henley-on-Thames (again, also another line that should be electrified soon in my opinion).

And yes, as I said before, you can have 3 car Electrostars - such trains already exist: Southeastern Class 375/3 and Southern Class 377/3.

Light rail / Tram is good, however if you are going to spend that amount of money in converting the Marlow branch line into a new tram line then you might as well incorporate some street running at either ends of the route, especially in the case of Marlow, to improve accessibility as I said in the previous post.

As stated previously a 60m 3 car 387 still wouldn't fit the 47m junction required to enter the branch, your options are really only a 2 car standard length EMU or something with shorter carriages like a tram-train

 

[SouthEastBuses]

As stated previously a 60m 3 car 387 still wouldn't fit the 47m junction required to enter the branch, your options are really only a 2 car standard length EMU or something with shorter carriages like a tram-train

And as I said before the platform length at Marlow is actually around 70m calculating on Google satellite.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Extension to Windsor - I love that idea and it would be awesome! But, will the expensive cost be justified for demand in travel between Windsor and Maidenhead? (& beyond)

Bear in mind that the Windsor branch comes off the south side of the setup - that is, the Windsor platform (platform 1) at Slough is on the side of the down main platform (platform 2) while the Marlow and Henley branches are on the north side (so the Marlow and Henley platforms (platforms 5) at Maidenhead and Twyford respectively are attached to the up relief platforms (platforms 4). So a service from the Marlow line would have to cross from the relief lines over the main. Done on the level, this would be interesting to timetable. Using flyovers and underpasses would be expensive.

 

[SouthEastBuses]

Bear in mind that the Windsor branch comes off the south side of the setup - that is, the Windsor platform (platform 1) at Slough is on the side of the down main platform (platform 2) while the Marlow and Henley branches are on the north side (so the Marlow and Henley platforms (platforms 5) at Maidenhead and Twyford respectively are attached to the up relief platforms (platforms 4). So a service from the Marlow line would have to cross from the relief lines over the main. Done on the level, this would be interesting to timetable. Using flyovers and underpasses would be expensive.

In reality he meant street running via the A308.

 

[flitwickbeds]

As stated previously a 60m 3 car 387 still wouldn't fit the 47m junction required to enter the branch, your options are really only a 2 car standard length EMU or something with shorter carriages like a tram-train

Is there any reason the track cannot be altered so that you can reach Marlow from Bourne End's longer platform? So something like the attached?
Would require the demolishment of what looks like 2 properties. But would mean a simple in and out reversal at Bourne End.

I guess that leaves a problem at peak times where 2 trains are on the branch together to provide enough capacity. So maybe a passing loop somewhere near Cookham Cemetery? Or North of Cookham village. Looks like there's enough physical space in both of those locations.

 

[Ianno87]

Is there any reason the track cannot be altered so that you can reach Marlow from Bourne End's longer platform? So something like the attached? View attachment 95285

Yes, the buildings you've drawn the Green Line through. Whose owners would be wanting to know why there is no other practical alternative to justify the compulsory purchase of their properties.

 

[Bald Rick]

And the curve would be too tight for any national rail vehicle.

Other than that, lots going for it....

 

[SouthEastBuses]

Here is an even better option:
Allowing access to the other platform without having to demolish the two properties (ok maybe make their gardens slightly smaller but that's it).

 

[JonathanH]

It would be interesting to know whether the solicitors, when doing planning searches, comment on the likelihood of these houses being bulldozed for the purpose of 'tidying up the railway' in their reports to potential purchasers of the properties.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As stated previously a 60m 3 car 387 still wouldn't fit the 47m junction required to enter the branch, your options are really only a 2 car standard length EMU or something with shorter carriages like a tram-train

The Stadler Citylink being ordered by TfW (a 25kV and 750VDC tram-train) appears to be literally made for this service.

Get the wires up on all the Thames branches (easy enough, they're short and could be fed from the mainline) and get a small fleet of these ordered.

As they'll only run on the branches they could be set up for level boarding.

Trains and stations | Transport for Wales

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tfwrail.wales

 

[SouthEastBuses]

The Stadler Citylink being ordered by TfW (a 25kV and 750VDC tram-train) appears to be literally made for this service.

Get the wires up on all the Thames branches (easy enough, they're short and could be fed from the mainline) and get a small fleet of these ordered.

As they'll only run on the branches they could be set up for level boarding.

Trains and stations | Transport for Wales

Transport for Wales | Buy Cheap Train Tickets and Check Train Times

tfwrail.wales

You can also get an Alstom Citadis 402 which appears to be 43m with 7 coaches.

Problem would be different level of boarding.

 

[flitwickbeds]

Yes, the buildings you've drawn the Green Line through. Whose owners would be wanting to know why there is no other practical alternative to justify the compulsory purchase of their properties.

I acknowledged that in my post. Potentially a long term plan for the railway to purchase those 2 properties when they come up for sale (and maybe rent them out to recoup the costs)?

And the curve would be too tight for any national rail vehicle.

Other than that, lots going for it....

It was a very rough green line, the curve could be smoother like this. I don't know if there are any other geological or engineering factors which would prevent this?

 

[MarlowDonkey]

Is there any reason the track cannot be altered so that you can reach Marlow from Bourne End's longer platform?

I guess that leaves a problem at peak times where 2 trains are on the branch together to provide enough capacity.

The long platform at Bourne End curves slightly away from Marlow, which would make a curve even tighter. See the picture in the wiki for Bourne End station.

Bourne End railway station - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Prior to some simplification in the 1950s, there used to be a connection from the Wycombe direction into the Marlow branch. The junction was about halfway down the platform. There has been some planning for reinstating something similar to enable a half hourly service without the need for a change at Bourne End.


Prior to rationalisation in the 1960s, there used to be a loop at Cookham station

 

[popeter45]

The Stadler Citylink being ordered by TfW (a 25kV and 750VDC tram-train) appears to be literally made for this service.

Get the wires up on all the Thames branches (easy enough, they're short and could be fed from the mainline) and get a small fleet of these ordered.

As they'll only run on the branches they could be set up for level boarding.

Trains and stations | Transport for Wales

Transport for Wales | Buy Cheap Train Tickets and Check Train Times

tfwrail.wales

Yea I did suggest the 398's earlier in the thread, just seem a perfect match.
Long term I wonder if such units could also solve the issue of electrification of many of the Cornish branch lines?

I acknowledged that in my post. Potentially a long term plan for the railway to purchase those 2 properties when they come up for sale (and maybe rent them out to recoup the costs)?


It was a very rough green line, the curve could be smoother like this. I don't know if there are any other geological or engineering factors which would prevent this?
View attachment 95287

The question is why go for such an expensive, disruptive and complex solution when a far more suitable solution already exists?
There is no way paths will be freed for a direct Paddington service so why bother trying to design for such a requirement?