Why is Thameslink so terrible?

[Jturner98]

Hello all, I’m writing this to see if anyone agrees with me and to hear other people’s opinions but I’ve been using Thameslink to travel to and from work for about 6 months now and I can honestly say it’s the worst commute I’ve ever done. I work in South London so I get on at Norwood Junction and get off at Redhill and change onto GWR for a service to Dorking Deepdene. The connection time between both trains is 6 minutes which is a fair amount of time in my opinion. But everyday there’s some sort of problem. Today we were stuck outside Purely for 5 minutes because another train had to cross over the junction - but even that’s delayed. That particular got into Purley on time so why’s it just sitting there and not leaving? I’ve seen exactly the same at east Croydon.

before I moved to Surrey I used to commute from Ramsgate. A journey which was a considerable amount longer but never had any problems.

I don’t know what the bigger joke is, the fact they seem to be incompetent at running a service or the fact that the fairs have risen for more delays and cancellations. Anyway rant over, I’d be interested to hear everyone else’s thoughts.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

Hello all, I’m writing this to see if anyone agrees with me and to hear other people’s opinions but I’ve been using Thameslink to travel to and from work for about 6 months now and I can honestly say it’s the worst commute I’ve ever done. I work in South London so I get on at Norwood Junction and get off at Redhill and change onto GWR for a service to Dorking Deepdene. The connection time between both trains is 6 minutes which is a fair amount of time in my opinion. But everyday there’s some sort of problem. Today we were stuck outside Purely for 5 minutes because another train had to cross over the junction - but even that’s delayed. That particular got into Purley on time so why’s it just sitting there and not leaving? I’ve seen exactly the same at east Croydon.

before I moved to Surrey I used to commute from Ramsgate. A journey which was a considerable amount longer but never had any problems.

I don’t know what the bigger joke is, the fact they seem to be incompetent at running a service or the fact that the fairs have risen for more delays and cancellations. Anyway rant over, I’d be interested to hear everyone else’s thoughts.

I would point out most delays arent actually Thameslink’s fault its Network Rail’s fault most of the time, so dont always blame the operator

 

[Bletchleyite]

The answer is probably, like the south WCML, because it is so intensively-worked that the tiniest of problems leads to significant knock-on delays.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

The answer is probably, like the south WCML, because it is so intensively-worked that the tiniest of problems leads to significant knock-on delays.

yep it has to share track with Southern and South Eastern but i disagree Thameslink is a bad idea it just needs improving

 

[Bletchleyite]

yep it has to share track with Southern and South Eastern but i disagree Thameslink is a bad idea it just needs improving

If demand doesn't return to previous levels, working it a bit less intensively (i.e. less frequently) would probably solve most of the issues. Same with the south WCML - the daytime timetable is reasonably resilient most of the time, it's when you cram in the peak extras that it so easily ends up in a mess.

 

[Minstral25]

The section from East Croydon to Purley on the slow lines is very congested and delays to train splits at Purley often cause delays. Both Southern and Thameslink services to Redhill are often delayed here and have been for years. Catch the 9J Peterborough to Horsham trains that jump this section and use the fast lines to Stoats Nest Junction for Coulsdon South.

 

[Taunton]

I would point out most delays arent actually Thameslink’s fault its Network Rail’s fault most of the time, so dont always blame the operator

The customer deals with, and pays, the train operator. Like any business, it is then up to them to be the one that pulls it all together, hires the staff and gets them on shift, buys the trains, has the fuel delivered, devises the timetable, arranges for the tracks to be there and the signals operated correctly, etc. All this is the responsibility of the train operator, that's what they do for a living as a business. if one of these is letting the side down it's the TOC's job to sort it out.

 

[ComUtoR]

It's probably the staff. Personally I blame the DfT or the Government. I think it's COVID that's the biggest problem but I think it's most likely the Unions fault.

Network Rail are in transition to GBRail so it's not their fault, unless they are a Signaller, then it's certainly because they are too busy feeding the fish to answer a simple SG request. Sometimes its the Pway people (orange army) but they always have overrunning engineering works so I think they are lazy and don't work hard enough to fix the track on time.

Potentially it's the weather. Leaves on the line have played havoc with the train running and the key route strategy isn't flexible enough, because, you know, Planners !

Ramsgate is SE so I guess SE > GTR. SE are awesome, nothing ever goes wrong

 

[Dr Hoo]

Hello all, I’m writing this to see if anyone agrees with me and to hear other people’s opinions but I’ve been using Thameslink to travel to and from work for about 6 months now and I can honestly say it’s the worst commute I’ve ever done. I work in South London so I get on at Norwood Junction and get off at Redhill and change onto GWR for a service to Dorking Deepdene. The connection time between both trains is 6 minutes which is a fair amount of time in my opinion. But everyday there’s some sort of problem. Today we were stuck outside Purely for 5 minutes because another train had to cross over the junction - but even that’s delayed. That particular got into Purley on time so why’s it just sitting there and not leaving? I’ve seen exactly the same at east Croydon.

before I moved to Surrey I used to commute from Ramsgate. A journey which was a considerable amount longer but never had any problems.

I don’t know what the bigger joke is, the fact they seem to be incompetent at running a service or the fact that the fairs have risen for more delays and cancellations. Anyway rant over, I’d be interested to hear everyone else’s thoughts.

So I am assuming that you are currently living in Dorking (Surrey) and commuting to Norwood Junction. (Your Location is still showing as Kent.) And you have described one modest delay on a Thameslink train today on your journey home today (which I can believe caused a missed connection at Redhill). Perhaps you will be eligible for Delay Repay?

There has been extensive discussion on another thread about temporary and emergency timetables into London Bridge and Victoria over the past few weeks as I expect you are aware.

Can you provide any more details of problems specifically with Thameslink (e.g. trains breaking down or cancelled because of driver shortage or whatever)?

 

[Fincra5]

Hello all, I’m writing this to see if anyone agrees with me and to hear other people’s opinions but I’ve been using Thameslink to travel to and from work for about 6 months now and I can honestly say it’s the worst commute I’ve ever done. I work in South London so I get on at Norwood Junction and get off at Redhill and change onto GWR for a service to Dorking Deepdene. The connection time between both trains is 6 minutes which is a fair amount of time in my opinion. But everyday there’s some sort of problem. Today we were stuck outside Purely for 5 minutes because another train had to cross over the junction - but even that’s delayed. That particular got into Purley on time so why’s it just sitting there and not leaving? I’ve seen exactly the same at east Croydon.

before I moved to Surrey I used to commute from Ramsgate. A journey which was a considerable amount longer but never had any problems.

I don’t know what the bigger joke is, the fact they seem to be incompetent at running a service or the fact that the fairs have risen for more delays and cancellations. Anyway rant over, I’d be interested to hear everyone else’s thoughts.

Sounds more like poor regulation from Three Bridges ASC....

 

[43066]

Like any business, it is then up to them to be the one that pulls it all together, hires the staff and gets them on shift, buys the trains, has the fuel delivered, devises the timetable, arranges for the tracks to be there and the signals operated correctly, etc. All this is the responsibility of the train operator, that's what they do for a living as a business.

Except that, apart from hiring (some of) the staff, basically everything you’ve described isn’t controlled by the TOCs. You might disagree with that method of structuring the railway, of course, but that doesn’t make your statement above any less inaccurate.

 

[Bald Rick]

I’ve used Thameslink for 19 years, albeit on the north side, and one extended period aside (where drivers didn’t work rest days) the service has been generally brilliant, much better than I had been lead to believ, and much better than other commutes I have done elsewhere.

I think you are unlucky.* Of the 20 Thameslink trains so far today that have called at Norwood Jn and then Redhill, 15 have been no worse than 3 minutes late at Redhill, the others being 4, 5, 5, 6, and 9 late.

The train that was 6 late does not have a tight connection with a Dorking train, so I guess you were on one of the 5 late services, presumably the one due to arrive 1452, with a 6 minute connection into the 1458 Reading. This service was delayed as the driver was asked to check on a potentially faulty signal. It turns out it wasn't faulty, but that’s luck.

* there is a saying that you make your own luck. Personally, I wouldn’t rely on a 6 minute connection at Redhill, even though the timetable ‘allows’ it.

 

[JonathanH]

Personally, I wouldn’t rely on a 6 minute connection at Redhill, even though the timetable ‘allows’ it.

The OP may well end up with a 36 minute connection as a result though.

 

[FOH]

Only over a few days but I tried a week recently from West Dulwich transferring cross platform at the next station towards Blackfriars. First day southeastern was on time but Thameslink cancelled, next Thameslink was so full I could barely get on. Next day southeastern 10 mins late and missed the connection. Rinse and repeat over the next few days. And yeah, gave that up.

 

[43066]

I’ve used Thameslink for 19 years, albeit on the north side, and one extended period aside (where drivers didn’t work rest days) the service has been generally brilliant, much better than I had been lead to believ, and much better than other commutes I have done elsewhere.

I think you are unlucky.* Of the 20 Thameslink trains so far today that have called at Norwood Jn and then Redhill, 15 have been no worse than 3 minutes late at Redhill, the others being 4, 5, 5, 6, and 9 late.

The train that was 6 late does not have a tight connection with a Dorking train, so I guess you were on one of the 5 late services, presumably the one due to arrive 1452, with a 6 minute connection into the 1458 Reading. This service was delayed as the driver was asked to check on a potentially faulty signal. It turns out it wasn't faulty, but that’s luck.

* there is a saying that you make your own luck. Personally, I wouldn’t rely on a 6 minute connection at Redhill, even though the timetable ‘allows’ it.

I’m surprised you weren’t affected by the issues in 2018 when TL’s current incarnation launched. That was a disaster for many weeks as I recall, mostly as a result of drivers not signing the core rather than RDW (I remember RDW on Sundays being a recurring issue as far back as the early noughties, which is perhaps what you’re referring to).

I use it every day (albeit through the core only, giving me the luxury of treating it like a tube service, without caring about individual trains’ origins/destinations) and agree it’s generally excellent. However that view isn’t shared by colleagues who use it to get into London from further afield, often at extreme times of day, and report it simply isn’t robust enough - especially from the Cambridge direction. Current COVID woes have made that exponentially worse of course.

Out of interest what are the reliability figures for the 700s like now? They seem to have bedded in well and it’s now very rare (IME) for delays to be caused by train failures.

 

[quantinghome]

The customer deals with, and pays, the train operator. Like any business, it is then up to them to be the one that pulls it all together, hires the staff and gets them on shift, buys the trains, has the fuel delivered, devises the timetable, arranges for the tracks to be there and the signals operated correctly, etc. All this is the responsibility of the train operator, that's what they do for a living as a business. if one of these is letting the side down it's the TOC's job to sort it out.

Um, do you seriously think that's how the rail network works?

"Hello, is that Network Rail?"

"Yes indeed"

"This is Thameslink"

"Ah, our most valued customer, how can we help you today?"

"Our trains keep getting delayed around Norwood Junction"

"I'm dreadfully sorry about that. We'll rebuild it right away. Should be ready next Monday"

"Oh, and we've written a new timetable ourselves which we'll send over to you which you will no doubt be able to implement immediately without any consideration for other operators or available capacity"

"Why ever would you think otherwise? We'll tell our signallers it's coming over and they'll jump to it"

Your post is essentially how the architects of rail privatisation thought the railways could work. They were wrong.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

Um, do you seriously think that's how the rail network works?

"Hello, is that Network Rail?"

"Yes indeed"

"This is Thameslink"

"Ah, our most valued customer, how can we help you today?"

"Our trains keep getting delayed around Norwood Junction"

"I'm dreadfully sorry about that. We'll rebuild it right away. Should be ready next Monday"

"Oh, and we've written a new timetable ourselves which we'll send over to you which you will no doubt be able to implement immediately without any consideration for other operators or available capacity"

"Why ever would you think otherwise? We'll tell our signallers it's coming over and they'll jump to it"

Your post is essentially how the architects of rail privatisation thought the railways could work. They were wrong.

This might be the best thing I've ever read full stop, let alone on Railuk Forums

 

[Taunton]

Your post is essentially how the architects of rail privatisation thought the railways could work.

It's also, incidentally, how onetime top rail manager Gerry Fiennes thought the railway should work, from far off BR days, as described in his classic book "I Tried to Run a Railway" (ever read it? Probably not). Phrases like 'The timetable should be an assurance and a promise, not a hope', or when confronted with a proposal to retime an express slower because a regularly delayed stopping service ahead was making it late, said 'No. The solution is not to retime the express later, the solution is to make the stopper ahead run to time. Do it'.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Sounds more like poor regulation from Three Bridges ASC....

Redhill bound traffic particularly Down Slow has always had a raw deal since 2018 but because the 9R/9J have 3-5mins in the schedule at Redhill they rarely arrive late at destination.

* there is a saying that you make your own luck. Personally, I wouldn’t rely on a 6 minute connection at Redhill, even though the timetable ‘allows’ it.

I made a 7m connection at STP to KGX earlier comfortably and am confident enough in the service to do that. So you say 6m is too tight but if every journey passengers make requires you to build in a huge buffer to ensure you make a connection journey times are just elongated and if you have a car why wouldn't you use it. What the industry needs to deliver a timetable that delivers on connections and a connection policy that doesn't leave people stranded unless severe disruption is in play.

 

[JonathanH]

Redhill bound traffic particularly Down Slow has always had a raw deal since 2018 but because the 9R/9J have 3-5mins in the schedule at Redhill they rarely arrive late at destination.

How much of that is due to the fabled 'fast path' that was left vacant through Redhill but can't be pathed through Croydon without the CARS works?

With that likely never to be needed, some spreading out of services in the Redhill corridor so they don't all follow stopping services in the Purley area might be desirable.

I assume that Victoria to Caterham / Tattenham Corner services are gone for good now so there should only be one peak Caterham / Tattenham Corner splitter each half hour in the future which should help but delays still happen through Purley.

 

[trainmania100]

I wouldn't say it's terrible, on the southern end of the Brighton mainline its quite a convience having an all stations stopper. Eg Burgess hill, wivelsfield, Balcombe etc.

When you've got stupid kids at 11pm pulling the emergency door release it does cause delays , and given the core is automated this can probably luck things up, plus if a late freight gets put in front and holds it up

 

[Bald Rick]

I made a 7m connection at STP to KGX earlier comfortably and am confident enough in the service to do that. So you say 6m is too tight but if every journey passengers make requires you to build in a huge buffer to ensure you make a connection journey times are just elongated and if you have a car why wouldn't you use it. What the industry needs to deliver a timetable that delivers on connections and a connection policy that doesn't leave people stranded unless severe disruption is in play.

I made a 6 minute connection recently EUS to STP, but I wouldn’t rely on that consistently (obviously!), nor on a 7 minute connection STP to KGX.

There’s places I would (and do) rely on such short connections - Luton for example, Stevenage, Leicester, even Preston (a bit more of a gamble there, admittedly). I’d also probably rely on Redhill for all connections except southbound from London to the branches.

 

[NSE]

I frequently rely (daily until I purchased a bike) on xx:43 arrival connecting to the xx:47 departure at Twickenham. Totally do able when everything runs to time, but I wouldn’t have done it on a day when I had a meeting or something. Just in case a delay happens.

 

[quantinghome]

It's also, incidentally, how onetime top rail manager Gerry Fiennes thought the railway should work, from far off BR days, as described in his classic book "I Tried to Run a Railway"

(ever read it? Probably not).

Ooh, now then... I wouldn't go around Railforums saying things like that. You run the grave risk of the other person turning around and telling you they have indeed read it, and what's more found it a very engaging book which sheds a lot of light on the decisions made during the BR era and on how railways should be run.

Phrases like 'The timetable should be an assurance and a promise, not a hope', or when confronted with a proposal to retime an express slower because a regularly delayed stopping service ahead was making it late, said 'No. The solution is not to retime the express later, the solution is to make the stopper ahead run to time. Do it'.

The point is that Gerry Fiennes, having worked within a fully integrated railway organisation in LNER and then BR knew would could be done. Also he could literally pick up the phone and say 'Do it' and it would happen, something no train operator can possibly do in the current system because everything's so split up with contractual boundaries and divisions of responsibility clogging every decision.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

I’d also probably rely on Redhill for all connections except southbound from London to the branches.

Trouble is these are the ones that matter to people and my point is that timetables nationally should be planned to deliver connections and there should connection policies in place so people can rely upon and not have to get a much earlier train just in case.

 

[brad465]

What still amazes me is someone actually thought 24tph through the Thameslink core was realistically possible.

 

[JonathanH]

What still amazes me is someone actually thought 24tph through the Thameslink core was realistically possible.

I suspect that the timetabling into the core is more reliable than what happens beyond it. The OP's gripe appears to be around how the trains run southbound through Croydon - Purley rather than northbound into the Core.

 

[RT4038]

Ooh, now then... I wouldn't go around Railforums saying things like that. You run the grave risk of the other person turning around and telling you they have indeed read it, and what's more found it a very engaging book which sheds a lot of light on the decisions made during the BR era and on how railways should be run.


The point is that Gerry Fiennes, having worked within a fully integrated railway organisation in LNER and then BR knew would could be done. Also he could literally pick up the phone and say 'Do it' and it would happen, something no train operator can possibly do in the current system because everything's so split up with contractual boundaries and divisions of responsibility clogging every decision.

I suspect there is a good dollop of hyperbole in the book too! BR punctuality was not that good in his era either! The main problem is too many trains for the infrastructure. Now who wants to sort out that reduction then?

 

[Bald Rick]

What still amazes me is someone actually thought 24tph through the Thameslink core was realistically possible.

It is. Easily.

 

[brad465]

I suspect that the timetabling into the core is more reliable than what happens beyond it. The OP's gripe appears to be around how the trains run southbound through Croydon - Purley rather than northbound into the Core.

It is. Easily.

Oh right, presumably then there are different reasons why the Sevenoaks' services don't go beyond Blackfriars, and the Maidstone East line TL services have been shelved altogether (I know of a few explaining the latter that has nothing to do with the core, but believed the core was an issue anyway).