Why not Replace Pacers With ex-IE 2700s?

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MK Tom

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This just strikes me as incredibly cheap way of replacing a small number of pacers. There are only a few 2700s but they're a very modern class and are only going to waste because of IE's over-ordering of 22000s. Could they not be re-gauged and shipped over here to replace some Pacers or even just provide extra capacity? Any thoughts?
 
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Wath Yard

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Yeah, let's buy a tiny fleet of non-standard 2nd hand trains from a bankrupt country because we are really that desperate and as a nation have that little self respect.
 

Aictos

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Personally i think when the pacers come up to be replaced, it will be a mass order of 172s or something similar.
I agree; however I must stress that rather then order a brand new design which isn't compatible with any existing design, it would save so much time and money to just get Bombardier to reopen the Class 172 production line and place a large enough order to start the withdrawal process of the Class 14X fleets.

If enough Class 172s were ordered then the existing Class 15X fleets would be used to boost capacity where possible as a example using pairs of Class 15Xs where before only one could be used.

The Class 172 jigs must still be available as they're a fairly recent design and would show the UK's faith in Derby pleasing everyone not forgetting finally allowing the North to have some brand new trains rather then old or cast off's from elsewhere.
 

Bevan Price

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I don't foresee any large scale Pacer replacement orders until it has been decided how many electrification schemes actually get approved. If Cardiff Valleys ever gets electrified, along with the already approved Thames Valley and North Western schemes, there will probably be enough 15x units spare to replace most of the Pacers. Nobody will want to finance a large batch of new dmu's if they are likely o be replaced by emu's in a few years.

Reguaging 2700 class bogies to standard guage should be relatively simple, but does the bodywork fit within the UK loading guage ? Or might they be better redeployed within Northern Ireland ?
 

Aictos

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You can't just give an order to who you like!
My main point was rather then introduce a brand new design which would not work in multiple with existing stock, it was far better to use a design which works out of the box admittedly something Bombardier is not always known for, ;)

For example, it's time we all learnt from our mistakes of ordering various subclasses of what ought to be standardised stock ie Virgin with the Class 220s/221s, Central Trains/Southern with the 170s/171s etc....

The Class 172 is a design which works, is already proven and is compatible with existing stock - it would also be far cheaper to order then having to worry about the research/development of a brand new design.

That being said, I can see the 14X fleets still in use many years after the various electrification schemes are completed.
 

starrymarkb

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Yeah, let's buy a tiny fleet of non-standard 2nd hand trains from a bankrupt country because we are really that desperate and as a nation have that little self respect.
And one reason IE are dumping them is because they are unreliable crap! IE previously had some 29xxx units on intercity runs, now more 22xxx units have arrived then they can cascade displacing the 27xx with Tokyu 28xx units
 

Robbies

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My main point was rather then introduce a brand new design which would not work in multiple with existing stock, it was far better to use a design which works out of the box admittedly something Bombardier is not always known for, ;)

For example, it's time we all learnt from our mistakes of ordering various subclasses of what ought to be standardised stock ie Virgin with the Class 220s/221s, Central Trains/Southern with the 170s/171s etc....

The Class 172 is a design which works, is already proven and is compatible with existing stock - it would also be far cheaper to order then having to worry about the research/development of a brand new design.

That being said, I can see the 14X fleets still in use many years after the various electrification schemes are completed.
As has been qouted earlier in this thread when Cardiff Valley line gets approval along with the all ready approved Thames Valley and North Western lines then there will be Class 15x's that can be used to replaced the Class 14x trains as the class 15x's would have been replaced either by Class 319 or 377 trains after the Thameslink franchise have had their new Siemens City Desiro trains.
 

starrymarkb

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Don't forget that Thameslink will also release a load of 165/166s. I wouldn't be surprised if some of those don't make their way north (and a marginally wider 165 will fit more places then a widebodied 27xx)
 

Robbies

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Don't forget that Thameslink will also release a load of 165/166s. I wouldn't be surprised if some of those don't make their way north (and a marginally wider 165 will fit more places then a widebodied 27xx)
True. Would the 165/166's be able to fit along the lines where the 14x's have served, surely it would be that the 165/166's replace Class 15x which then replace class 14x?
 

starrymarkb

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True. Would the 165/166's be able to fit along the lines where the 14x's have served, surely it would be that the 165/166's replace Class 15x which then replace class 14x?
The 165s are no wider then a 150, the problem is they are 23m so there is a bit more throw on curves. The do operate over the Southern and (ECS) on the North London Line and were presumably delivered from York without hitting anything!
 

ainsworth74

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The do operate over the Southern and (ECS) on the North London Line and were presumably delivered from York without hitting anything!
There is a document on the RSSB's website here (starting page 67) that shows some areas that 165s and 166s have been cleared for.
 

SprinterMan

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It is a shame they are being scrapped as they are quite young and are good looking units. In an ideal world, Chiltern and LOROL would take them, allowing their 172s to go to Northern to replace pacers, but alas, regauging them would be expensive, and they were never brilliant in the 1st place so they will be scrapped.
 

AndrewP

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You can't just give an order to who you like!
Actually you can if there is only a single bidder for the specification you need so, if one product, had a compelling logic for it then you could avoid the need to go to open market.

BUT - This can never happen when there is an interchangable product such as a train. The way around it is how the specification is written.
 

Aictos

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Actually you can if there is only a single bidder for the specification you need so, if one product, had a compelling logic for it then you could avoid the need to go to open market.

BUT - This can never happen when there is an interchangable product such as a train. The way around it is how the specification is written.
Which is how London Midland and Southern did it for these new Class 350/3s and 377/6s.
 

route:oxford

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Sadly there is little value in the units.

Even if the bodies were gauge-compatible within Britain, there would still be the requirement to re-bogie them. Then there is the mysterious and secret black-art of identifying if they are acceptable for operations on Network Rail.

But in the fantasy world, rebuild them as 20 LHCS, compatible with the same DVT & power-door system as Chiltern. The remaining 3 coaches be rebuilt as DBFOs.

The two single car units be re-gauged with a good pool of spare parts and used on the MidHants reliveried as Go-op.
 

WillPS

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Sadly there is little value in the units.

Even if the bodies were gauge-compatible within Britain, there would still be the requirement to re-bogie them. Then there is the mysterious and secret black-art of identifying if they are acceptable for operations on Network Rail.

But in the fantasy world, rebuild them as 20 LHCS, compatible with the same DVT & power-door system as Chiltern. The remaining 3 coaches be rebuilt as DBFOs.

The two single car units be re-gauged with a good pool of spare parts and used on the MidHants reliveried as Go-op.
Surely the Irish Mk3s would make a stronger candidate?
 

Rhydgaled

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I don't foresee any large scale Pacer replacement orders until it has been decided how many electrification schemes actually get approved. If Cardiff Valleys ever gets electrified, along with the already approved Thames Valley and North Western schemes, there will probably be enough 15x units spare to replace most of the Pacers.
Cardiff valleys electrification will hopefully release 30 Pacers directly and 8 150s to replace the last 8 pacers with Great Western. It won't touch Northern's pacer fleet. 165s released by the Thames Valley scheme could operate in the Newcastle area for Northern, but Northern will still have quite a lot of Pacers around unless 165s/166s can also be cleared around Bristol/Exeter to release 150s.

Surely the Irish Mk3s would make a stronger candidate?
I heard the Irish mark3s were put up for sale, but never heard if anyone purchased them. What happened?
 

WillPS

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Cardiff valleys electrification will hopefully release 30 Pacers directly and 8 150s to replace the last 8 pacers with Great Western. It won't touch Northern's pacer fleet. 165s released by the Thames Valley scheme could operate in the Newcastle area for Northern, but Northern will still have quite a lot of Pacers around unless 165s/166s can also be cleared around Bristol/Exeter to release 150s.

I heard the Irish mark3s were put up for sale, but never heard if anyone purchased them. What happened?
The deadline passed a few months ago and the lack of any form of news probably means either they didn't sell and/or they're set for scrap.
 

DownSouth

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Even if the bodies were gauge-compatible within Britain, there would still be the requirement to re-bogie them.
Quite a simple workshop job that is quite routine in many places around Australia, and hardly a good enough reason to turn them down if everything else about them made them a good option.
 

Rhydgaled

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The deadline passed a few months ago and the lack of any form of news probably means either they didn't sell and/or they're set for scrap.
That's a shame. Can anyone confirm whether the Irish mark3s that were for sale have been scrapped, or did nobody want them and they were left to rust?
 

ainsworth74

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Quite a simple workshop job that is quite routine in many places around Australia, and hardly a good enough reason to turn them down if everything else about them made them a good option.
Is it still simple if you're also converting powered bogies to a different gauge?
 

starrymarkb

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That's a shame. Can anyone confirm whether the Irish mark3s that were for sale have been scrapped, or did nobody want them and they were left to rust?
The ones that were up for sale had deteriorated badly, I believed a couple of TOCs looked at them but decided that they were not worth the cost of conversion (plus they'd also be a small non standard subfleet. They wouldn't be easy to integrate into a larger UK spec fleet)
 

DownSouth

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Is it still simple if you're also converting powered bogies to a different gauge?
Yep, you just need to have the spare bogies ready to go. Transferring locomotives and DMUs to different gauges is still a routine job in Australia, where there are standard gauge conversion programs in progress, freight traffic levels can fluctuate and some of the big companies operate on all three gauges. Some loco classes have members of the class spread across all three gauges.

Even steam locos built by the South Australian Railways after about 1920 had easy gauge conversion built into the design.
 

150001

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Really, we need to get the Northern routes electrified and instead of using cast offs elsewhere, actually have new trains. Really the class 375 would be good or maybe a more luxuriousness version of the 378 perhaps. At the moment the 172s seem good candidates to replace Pacers. They could be bought now and replace the Pacers. However when or if mass electrification takes place, the 172s could move to the south west to replace 150s or would it be possible to convert the 172s to run off electricity?
 
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