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Why were slam door trains still built so late on?

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big all

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BREL was on there.
yes that makes sense after after nearing 50 years exact recollection can be foggy:D

All the Southern VEP/CIG/REP generation were built in York, starting in 1963, when Eastleigh production closed down with the last of the 4-CEP.
aha so that would fit in perhaps with 63 stock cigs bigs veps etc all being york where as 51 and 57 being eastliegh
and to save confusion the dates as in 51/57/63 where the start dates off when a type off stock group with different specification was initiated with many groups built or adapted well after next group starts
 
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AY1975

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It was the mid 70s before fully automatic doors began to be widely used in mainland Europe - previously inward-opening hand-operated doors were typical, and the first step forward was a form of central locking or closing-and-locking (still common today, and just about as difficult to open as a Mk 3 door!). :)

Yes, although Netherlands Railways already had units with automatic doors in the 1950s and '60s, such as the Mat'54 (a.k.a. "Hondekop") and Mat'64 ("Plan T" and "Plan V") EMUs.
 

Dr_Paul

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On suburban services I suspect that most passengers saw a slam door to each seating bay as an advantage.
Plus the extra few seconds you got from swinging the door open before the train had fully stopped and stepping off.

Definitely! I travelled up to Waterloo for years on 4 SUBs, and boarding and alighting was pretty quick as each compartment or bay had its own door.
 

Bletchleyite

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Yes, although Netherlands Railways already had units with automatic doors in the 1950s and '60s, such as the Mat'54 (a.k.a. "Hondekop") and Mat'64 ("Plan T" and "Plan V") EMUs.

And I don't think DB typically went for inward opening - the older coaches I've seen that didn't have the folding doors had Mk2-style wraparound manual doors.
 

Bletchleyite

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But other units of the same era all had automatic cab doors.

"Other units of the same era" = "Class 150/2 and 455". All others of that era didn't have dedicated cab doors at all, they just used the first passenger door, which caused obvious issues with getting out to use signal post telephones on full and standing trains. The Class 319 onwards did too, but aren't they a bit later and use a Networker-style semi-automatic plug door?

With those two classes, it might be to do with the fact that passengers can access that area when they are coupled, therefore the door needs to be on the interlock.
 

edwin_m

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"Other units of the same era" = "Class 150/2 and 455". All others of that era didn't have dedicated cab doors at all, they just used the first passenger door, which caused obvious issues with getting out to use signal post telephones on full and standing trains. The Class 319 onwards did too, but aren't they a bit later and use a Networker-style semi-automatic plug door?

With those two classes, it might be to do with the fact that passengers can access that area when they are coupled, therefore the door needs to be on the interlock.
317s also have crew doors behind the cab, and without checking the 318 probably does too as they are essentially 317 clones minus one coach.

319s onward do indeed have a plug door next to the driver so the end saloon was a bit bigger and got an extra small window each side. I'm not sure why they couldn't use a pocketed door like the passenger doors at the time - perhaps the space needed for the pocket would take up too much room in the cab? This door is unpowered on some classes, certainly 170s and 185s and probably others too, but I believe they are all on the interlock. It would be pretty dangerous for the driver if one came open at speed, especially if the cause was the pressure wave from a passing train.
 

AY1975

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As to main line stock, it was the mid 70s before fully automatic doors began to be widely used in mainland Europe - previously inward-opening hand-operated doors were typical, and the first step forward was a form of central locking or closing-and-locking (still common today, and just about as difficult to open as a Mk 3 door!). :)

The doors on standard main line stock in mainland Europe are not usually inward-opening in the true sense, i.e. with the whole door opening inwards, but they often have (or used to have) hinged folding doors consisting of a narrower segment that opens inwards and the main part of the door that folds on top of the narrow bit. Older coaches built until about the 1970s or '80s tended to have manually operated doors of this type that did not close or lock automatically, and later builds had doors of this type that still had to be opened manually but that did close and lock automatically before the train left. Some SNCF and DB hauled stock has these folding doors, and some of their coaches have conventional sliding plug or swing plug doors.

In Britain, the XP 64 coaches originally had folding doors which were presumably modelled on those in mainland Europe, but I believe that they soon proved troublesome and were replaced by conventional slam doors so the concept never caught on in Britain. There is a separate thread on the XP 64 stock at www.railforums.co.uk/threads/xp-64-coaches.159719/
 

30907

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The doors on standard main line stock in mainland Europe are not usually inward-opening in the true sense, i.e. with the whole door opening inwards, but they often have (or used to have) hinged folding doors consisting of a narrower segment that opens inwards and the main part of the door that folds on top of the narrow bit.
Yes, sorry, that's what I was driving at, but didn't phrase it well. Recessed doors in various styles were (are) very common too. The common factor being that they don't open any significant distance beyond the coach side.

BTW I do recall seeing slam-door type stock at Paris Nord around 1969 (Nord Express open seconds, Wikipedia tells me, door arrangements like a 310), and of course the FS Centoporte - but they weren't typical by then!
 

Bletchleyite

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This door is unpowered on some classes, certainly 170s and 185s and probably others too, but I believe they are all on the interlock.

It's unpowered on all classes (so far as I am aware), because if it wasn't it could chop the head off of a member of staff leaning out of the droplight. I believe it has to be interlocked if for no other reason than that a plug door is out of gauge when open.
 

edwin_m

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It's unpowered on all classes (so far as I am aware), because if it wasn't it could chop the head off of a member of staff leaning out of the droplight. I believe it has to be interlocked if for no other reason than that a plug door is out of gauge when open.
Thanks for that, I had wondered about the droplight but couldn't recall if all the classes with plug driver doors had one.

First generation DMUs had outward-opening slam doors to the cabs. There must have been places where getting out to use a signal phone was somewhat hazardous.
 

AndrewE

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The doors on standard main line stock in mainland Europe are not usually inward-opening in the true sense, i.e. with the whole door opening inwards, but they often have (or used to have) hinged folding doors consisting of a narrower segment that opens inwards and the main part of the door that folds on top of the narrow bit. Older coaches built until about the 1970s or '80s tended to have manually operated doors of this type that did not close or lock automatically, and later builds had doors of this type that still had to be opened manually but that did close and lock automatically before the train left.
Actually they closed after the train left, when it got up to about walking pace, which was a bit of a shock when you first encountered it. It might well have been automatic rather than guard-initiated, but I don't actually remember seeing different coaches closing at different times, which might result from variations in the speed sensor setting.
 

Bletchleyite

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Actually they closed after the train left, when it got up to about walking pace, which was a bit of a shock when you first encountered it. It might well have been automatic rather than guard-initiated, but I don't actually remember seeing different coaches closing at different times, which might result from variations in the speed sensor setting.

Standard UIC folding doors have two different safety features. There are or were some earlier vehicles which only had one of the two.

The autocloser is guard operated by turning a square key in a lock located near a door. This has the effect of applying "closure pressure" to the door air line which pushes it closed. The closure pressure isn't that strong despite the almighty slam you get, but the way the doors pivot means it is impossible to open one against it. As built, the closure pressure leaks away after about 30 seconds, sometimes less. It is (I believe) done electrically between vehicles and the actual air pressure applied per vehicle, which means it is possible to add a door closure warning sounder or connect a coach with electrically operated doors to the same standard system.

There is also "door blocking" (Tuerblockierung/bloquage des portes), which mechanically disconnects the internal handle (but not the outside one) when the coach reaches 5km/h.

Neither of these is "sided", so there is always a wrong side door release as well as the right side. Release is fully automatic on dropping below 5km/h.

A number of different operators have modified them in some way for additional safety, which has generally involved modifying the autocloser to keep the door closed. DB modified theirs on some trains so the pressure remains in place until released by the driver, whereas SBB seem to have modified theirs so it can still leak away but is applied automatically about every minute or so when above 5km/h - this would mean the doors closing automatically if the guard had not done so or if someone had managed to open one after dispatch, both of which I've seen happen before in Switzerland. A downside of the latter is that if pressure is applied just before the train drops below 5km/h nobody can open any doors until about 20-30 seconds after the train stops, which is a *long* 20-30 seconds if you think you might not be able to get off!
 

Cowley

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Really interesting Bletchleyite. Always good to learn something new.
I can imagine the creeping feeling of unease when the door hasn’t opened after twenty seconds!
 

hexagon789

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Yes, although Netherlands Railways already had units with automatic doors in the 1950s and '60s, such as the Mat'54 (a.k.a. "Hondekop") and Mat'64 ("Plan T" and "Plan V") EMUs.

I think the LMS, and possibly the LNER, had EMUs with sliding doors in the 1930s.
 

edwin_m

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The LMS had the Merserail units with power sliding doors. I think the best the LNER could offer were manual slidings doors on the Tyneside units.
 

hexagon789

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The LMS had the Merserail units with power sliding doors. I think the best the LNER could offer were manual slidings doors on the Tyneside units.

Interesting, I had thought the LNER Tyneside units were powered sliding doors. You learn something new everyday I guess ;)

The ex-LMS TOPs 502/503 were air-operated sliding doors though?
 

Ken H

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power doors were a massive increase in the complexity of a train against slam doors. and seating capacity.
and until plug doors came in, the door pockets took a lot of passenger space.
 

yorksrob

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Indeed.

One only has to look at the door/window layout of the early 80's/late 70's generation of sliding door trains to realise that they are inevitably inferior to slam door stock because of the pockets.

Plug doors are the only type to offer a suitable alternative.
 

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I believe both electric-plug doors and retention tanks were considered when the HST was in development (can't recall if that was for production or prototype as well) but ruled out on cost grounds IIRC.

Irish Rail did have their Mk3s all fitted with electric-plug doors (similar to the 442's) but not with retention tanks either.

How did the Irish MK3 doors work without headend power?
 

Cowley

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Still used too.
Here's a mk3 generator car behind a class 201 at Dublin last year.
IMG_6172.JPG
 

hexagon789

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How did the Irish MK3 doors work without headend power?

As stated below, they used Electric Generator Vans in each Mk3 set to provide Electric Train Supply for the air-con, heating, lighting etc. The Mk2d sets also had a generator van in the formation. While the Cravens used a Steam Generator Van which had a boiler to supply steam heating and a diesel generator to supply power for the lighting.

The suburban Mk3 sets which were push-pull equipped operated with a Control Cars which had an underfloor generator with sufficient power to provide ETS for up to 5 additional Mk3s.

Originally the De-Dietrich stock used on cross-border Dublin-Belfast services had its ETS supplied directly from the 201 loco (these being equipped to supply ETS or rather Head-end Power (HEP) as it believe it is termed by Irish Rail). The engine in the 201 runs at constant high revs when supplying HEP and consequently this was resulting in increased fuel consumption, engine wear and in some cases lead to fires. Therefore some Mk3 generator vans were refurbished and inserted into each set in 2013.
 

Taunton

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Maybe not realised that London Underground had hand-push sliding doors into the 1950s, the last being those on the Circle Line, of all routes. It's easy for 3rd rail stock to have power doors, as they are constantly connected to the electricity, and also tended to have air brakes, which provides a good power source on each vehicle. The LMS Wirral Class 503, which I well recall, were built by the same outside contractors (Met-Cam and Birmingham RCW) as built Underground cars with power doors at the time. They had an emergency door release which was labelled that if operated you could then push the doors apart. They had the old Underground style of two air cylinders, small and large, connected to each door. The small one applied pressure all the time to keep the doors closed. The controls worked on the larger cylinder, which when operated overcame the smaller cylinder and pushed the doors open. Discharging the air from this at Doors Close meant the small cylinder closed them again.

The key issue was an absence of power source on traditional rolling stock, where locomotives were attached and detached as required. It was also, at the time, not perceived as any problem for people to open the doors themselves.

Paris Metro had hand push sliding doors into the mid-1980s on Classic stock. An air cylinder closed them just for departure, but then you could open them again. It was common in hot summer weather to run between stations with a door open, no different to traditional British buses with an open back entrance.
 
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Islineclear3_1

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Don't forget that the Southern was under pressure to build new stock relatively quickly to replace old pre-war stock. Also, the ethos back then was to aim to provide a seat for everyone and a slam door to each bay/compartment facilitated fast station dwell times. It was also easier to get stuff in service quickly based upon existing designs
 

Ken H

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Don't forget that the Southern was under pressure to build new stock relatively quickly to replace old pre-war stock. Also, the ethos back then was to aim to provide a seat for everyone and a slam door to each bay/compartment facilitated fast station dwell times. It was also easier to get stuff in service quickly based upon existing designs
and fast turnrounds. Dumping a load of passengers out of a toast-rack trainwith many slam doors meant the train could be sent back quickly releasing the platform for the next train. Didnt waterloo have a driver ready at the country end ready to get into the cab when the train stopped, and take the ECS back for the next load.
 

Fast Track

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Coming into Paddington in the 80’s and getting off there always seemed to be someone in front of you holding the slam door just open on the mechanism and just a further click away so they could lead a charge down the platform
 

big all

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and fast turnrounds. Dumping a load of passengers out of a toast-rack trainwith many slam doors meant the train could be sent back quickly releasing the platform for the next train. Didnt waterloo have a driver ready at the country end ready to get into the cab when the train stopped, and take the ECS back for the next load.
to be fair drivers diagrams would seldom be constructed in such a way to include it for a too quick departure in a normal multi platform station as it very restrictive
 
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