Wigan Stations

[coxy]

Having looked at an aerial view of Wigan North Western station, it appears that the eastern ends of the platforms give you the ability to view the lines running through Wigan Wallgate station.

Is this actually the case ?

 

[MidnightFlyer]

You can see the very end of the platforms under the roadbridge IIRC, but there's a curve thereafter so you can't see trains actually stopped in the platform.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

The lines to Wallgate (to/from Manchester) are easily viewable from the south end of North Western station.

 

[coxy]

Thanks for info

 

[mister-sparky]

Just a random question, have their ever been any serious proposals to merge to two stations? They're just so close it seems silly to have them completely separate.

 

[Cherry_Picker]

How would you propose the merge? They are further apart than Kings Cross and St Pancras are and I don't think anybody (well, other than London Underground but that's different...) wants to merge those two stations.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

How would you propose the merge? They are further apart than Kings Cross and St Pancras are and I don't think anybody (well, other than London Underground but that's different...) wants to merge those two stations.

They are a lot closer than the two halves of Waterloo, or even Manchester Piccadilly. (Or King's Cross come to think of it).
It's the kind of trek that makes you wonder why there is not a covered walking route between the two stations, as there is plenty of interchanging going on.

 

[TOCDriver]

Merging them would cost millions of pounds for very little benefit. The topography of both the WCML at Wigan North Western and that of the Wallgate lines (Southport and Kirkby) is just way too different to make economical sense. You would literally have to rip up half of Wigan town centre for months on end to get anywhere near a merge of lines and stations

 

[WatcherZero]

Theres actually been three studies on merging them over the last decade, the first by Virgin and then two by Wigan Council. Its currently adopted local transport policy though partially unfunded for the merger to happen under the name Wigan Hub. Phase 1 moving the bus station to North Western is likely to occur during CP5 as its made the final shortlist of Greater Manchester transport projects, phase 2 moving the platforms of Wallgate next to North Western and rebuilding North Westerns station building with a modern glass structure is currently unfunded.

The project is costed at £37.68m with a Dft BCR of 3.6 and was designed to address the need for a decent quality interchange and the problems of the town centre road layout and multiple approach vectors of bus routes.

There were three options and two sub options considered by Halcrow with varying levels of cost, some of the cheapest options had the highest operating cost as they duplicated facilities or dispersed them.
.
Option 1A: Closing Wigan Bus Station and creating an orbital bus route around the town centre with on street 'super stops' (city centre style shelters 30m long with three stopping spots for buses)
Option 1B: Closing Wigan Bus Station and creating a spinal bus route with on street 'super stops'
Option 2: Creating a new bus station at Wigan North Western where the current multi-storey is which is demolished and relocated where the surface car park is, relocating Wallgate platforms, new landmark station building at North Western.
Option 3A: Same as option 2 but a smaller bus station and combined with orbital bus route.
Option 3B: (the favoured option) Same as option 2 and combined with a spinal bus route.
Option 4: Relocate Wallgate platforms to North Western, instead of a central bus station a Series of bus stops outside Wigan Wallgate, Rodney Street and Queen Street (south of North Western) with a new side entrance to North Western knocked through the viaduct from Queen Street, new landmark station building.
Option 5: Similar to option 2 but a larger bus station across the whole of the multistorey/surface car park. A new car park is built behind King Street where the old MFI store is and a new bridge is built over the rail lines to King Street to allow buses to access King Street from North Western bus station.
Option 6: (Pick and Mix 'balanced' option) 1/3rd of Wigan Bus station remains open and is refurbished, a small bus station is built in front of North Western, no additional onstreet 'super stops', Wallgate platforms not moved, pedestrian bridge between King Street and North Western is replaced. This option has the lowest contruction costs but the highest operating costs and doesnt benefit from selling the land the current bus station occupies.

http://www.wigan.gov.uk/Docs/PDF/Co...and-Policies/5OptionDesign(Overviewplans).pdf

 

[Eagle]

They are a lot closer than the two halves of Waterloo, or even Manchester Piccadilly. (Or King's Cross come to think of it).

Those are all in the same building though. The two halves of Wigan are not (and can't be unless you demolish some of the buildings on the street between them.


Anyway, they're further apart than St Budeaux Ferry Road and St Budeaux Victoria Road :P

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Would there be more traffic disruption if a new bus station was situated at Wigan North Western station ?

The current bus station is enclosed on a package of land that seems to be an ideal situation for the main shopping precinct and the market,

 

[Bob Ames]

Option 2: Creating a new bus station at Wigan North Western where the current multi-storey is which is demolished

They want to demolish the multi-storey that was built in 2009?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The current bus station is enclosed on a package of land that seems to be an ideal situation for the main shopping precinct and the market

Indeed it is, but that package of land is highly valued by developers...

 

[WatcherZero]

Its already planned for Wallgate and King Street to be pedestrianised except for station access, the buses operate contra to the one way system due to the limited access of the current bus station site.

Other issues flagged up by the Council and Bus operators:
The current bus station is very open and unsecurable,
Its a very large bus station and expensive security and monitoring wise,
Distance from the bus station to the stations for pedestrians 500-750m,
Theres a dozen approach corridors for bus routes but only two ways to access the bus station and while all buses serve the bus station none of the other main destinations in the town centre (e.g. stations, library) have more than 30% of bus services servicing them meaning their cut off from the other corridors. Of 24,770 bus passengers into the town centre every day they calculated that 10,143 dont have direct access to Wallgate and around 20,000 dont have access to Mesnes Street, King Street or Library Street.
They found only 30% of services crossed the centre and onwards to a different corridor rather than terminating in it meaning limited cross town journey options which could be increased.

Interesting statistics on public transport mode
7.5% of people entering Wigan town centre on a typical day were interchanging from rail to bus or vice versa
2.2% were making a rail-rail interchange
21.9% arrived or left by just one train
10.3% were making a bus-bus interchange
58.2% arrived or left by just one bus

Meaning at least 20% of public transport users would benefit from a better quality interchange.

Also compared to the average modal share of other GM centres (Bolton, Oldham, Stockport, Rochdale) twice as many as average arrive by rail or walking into Wigan while only half as many use a car, bus usage was slightly below average.

They want to demolish the multi-storey that was built in 2009?

Indeed though we are talking around 2025 ish if phase 2 is given go ahead so would be around 15 years old by then.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Other issues flagged up by the Council and Bus operators:
The current bus station is very open and unsecurable. Its a very large bus station and expensive security and monitoring wise,

Would the proposed new Wigan bus station have as many stands as the existing bus station or would the principle employed in the raison d'etre in the operational use of the replacement bus station at Altrincham Interchange, where a reduced number of stances are expected to handle the same number of bus services, be brought into play ?

 

[mister-sparky]

Merging them would cost millions of pounds for very little benefit. The topography of both the WCML at Wigan North Western and that of the Wallgate lines (Southport and Kirkby) is just way too different to make economical sense. You would literally have to rip up half of Wigan town centre for months on end to get anywhere near a merge of lines and stations

Can't you just build a curve from the Southport/Kirkby line to NorthWestern? You can tell there's quite a height difference on googlemaps, but junctions like that are are everywhere. South London's full of them. Then at the southern end of NorthWestern the lines almost merge anyways. So you can then just demolish Wallgate and concentrate services on an enlarged NW. Hardly ripping up half of Wigan town centre... None of it infact.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Ripping up half of Wigan would probably be doing the townspeople a favour

Seriously though, never in a million years. It would be impossible to build a rising line from Wallgate Junction to North Western station joining west. The only thing you could perhaps do is resite Wallgate Junction about half a mile or so west, but that would mean an enormously tight horseshoe curve for the Kirkby line. You could perhaps move the Wallgate platforms to near where the WCML and Manchester line meet just south of North Western station, but it'd be one hell of a gradient to stop a train on, probably too steep.

 

[Darren R]

The point is though that if this was to happen, it would result in all trains to/from Kirkby and Southport having to cross the WCML on the level. Given how much money NetworkRail are spending elsewhere on the network to eliminate such crossings by building grade-seperated junctions, it's really not a good idea to be putting a completely new one in. Additionally, as MattE2010 says, the curve onto the Kirkby line would be impossibly tight - and don't forget this is Pacer Country!

Is it really all that much of a hassle to interchange between Wallgate and North Western? NRE has walking time between the two as 11 minutes - but that is being very, very generous. They're practically across the road from eath other! And is there much in the way of interchange between the two stations anyway?

MattE2010
Ripping up half of Wigan would probably be doing the townspeople a favour

True - but it's the wrong half!

 

[telstarbox]

There are some tube stations which have longer walks between platforms than going from NW to Wallgate - apart from crossing the road it's a very short distance between the two.

 

[D6975]

There are some tube stations which have longer walks between platforms than going from NW to Wallgate - apart from crossing the road it's a very short distance between the two.

Indeed
Monument and Bank are shown on the tube map as an interchange.
If you've never done it - don't.

 

[WatcherZero]

Would the proposed new Wigan bus station have as many stands as the existing bus station or would the principle employed in the raison d'etre in the operational use of the replacement bus station at Altrincham Interchange, where a reduced number of stances are expected to handle the same number of bus services, be brought into play ?

It currently has capacity for 100 buses an hour, I think they are looking at about 2/3rds of that capacity split between a smaller bus station on the existing site at the sorting office end and a bus station at North Western. Then they would try and encourage through routes connecting corridors but at a minumum services from the north and east would go through the current bus station and terminate at North Western and buses from the southern and western corridors would go through North Western and terminate at the rebuilt existing bus station. 2/3rds of the current bus station land would then be available for redevelopment with Halcrow suggesting another supermarket but I think the council would prefer a leisure use like a cinema or bowling alley or similar. Theres a seperate plan being worked on to redevelop The Galleries by refurbishment and moving the market hall in so that the market is located at the centre of the town centre raising its profile.

 

[Muzer]

Indeed
Monument and Bank are shown on the tube map as an interchange.
If you've never done it - don't.

Really? I've done a few interchanges, it's not too bad. A reasonable walk but well-signposted and all indoors with no roads to cross.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

It currently has capacity for 100 buses an hour, I think they are looking at about 2/3rds of that capacity split between a smaller bus station on the existing site at the sorting office end and a bus station at North Western.

Is it not better for bus interchange passengers to have one master bus station site at Wigan, rather than two separate ones ?

 

[Howardh]

Is it not better for bus interchange passengers to have one master bus station site at Wigan, rather than two separate ones ?

Bolton sort of has 2 bus stations, the larger one about 700m (more??) from the smaller one which is adjacent to the station (interchange).

The smaller one naturally has fewer services, but the interchange suffered from buses being terminated there, and buses being "through" and, worst of all, many services not calling there at all. Some, like the 125, go down the main road and miss the station by some 300m. It's been a mess. Would have been much better if all buses terminated at the large bus station, and regardless of destination also called at the interchange.

So r/e Wigan, if it goes down the one-and-a-half bus station route, it's gonna have the same problem, buses here, there, everywhere but not necessarily where you want them.

Hopefully Bolton's bus problems will be solved when the new proper bus station opens adjacent to the rail station, but that seems two lifetimes away just now.

 

[WatcherZero]

Is it not better for bus interchange passengers to have one master bus station site at Wigan, rather than two separate ones ?

No shouldnt really be an issue due to the roads layout (theres only one road between the two) and theyve gone for the spinal bus route option, it will act like an hourglass and every bus will have to pass the current bus station, King Street or Wallgate to cross the town centre anyway. The idea is every service will call at both bus stations

 

[Gathursty]

Prime Minister David Cameron will very likely be using Wigan North Western twice tomorrow on his way to open the Wigan Youth Zone. Don't rush all at once will you.

 

[Darren R]

Prime Minister David Cameron will very likely be using Wigan North Western twice tomorrow on his way to open the Wigan Youth Zone. Don't rush all at once will you.

Oh lucky Wigan! (Oh lucky him! )

I think it needs a visit by the Queen though before a station qualifies for a lick of paint!

 

[Stonesourscotty]

Theres protests planned on facebook for it. the centre was funded by dave whelan the local cockroach.

 

[callum112233]

My fantasy idea, if you wanted to get rid of Wallgate would be to 'split' platform 1 at Wigan NW into 2 platforms, so platform 1 would become platform 0 and platform 1.

Then build a new set of tracks from the north end of Wigan NW down to Wigan Wallgate Jnc.

If the multi-storey car park wasn't in the way, you could even build a new platform parallel to the existing platform an Wigan NW for the Manchester-Southport-Kirkby trains to use exclusively.

P.S It's fun to redesign Wigan from my own computer chair
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Following on from my previous post, just for fun, I made this:

[youtube]iWLc1o8Fs_I[/youtube]

 

[Joseph_Locke]

7m vertically in ~200m? Not in a 150!

 

[WatcherZero]

The solution they are looking at is two platforms of 8 car length (so would lose the west facing bay) parallel to the North Western platforms in the existing cutting which may be widened and have its geomentry altered slightly with the points before North Western moved further back down the viaduct. There are enginerring challenges but not unsurmountable ones, this may result in the viaducts needing to be widened slightly and possibly having to alter the arches under Wallgate.

Of course beyond this you have to be thinking about the changes that will be needed to support HS2 as well, all the HS2 trains to Scotland will be passing through the station when HS2 joins at Golborne some stopping and some non stopping. The platforms are over 250m long so should accomodate the 200m classic compatible trains but theres opportunities to increase speed through the station, improve passenger facilties, etc... Part of Virgins 2001 study on improving the station was to close the subway to passengers (still being open to staff) and build a replacement pedestrian overbridge linked to the existing lift shafts which would be raised to service it.