Will Northern Connect transform Northern's service and reputation?

[Bletchleyite]

I think the sub-brand (train category) thing is a really good idea, provided the quality is maintained. Most railways across the world do it, not to mention that VT do still differentiate "Virgin Pendolino" and "Virgin Voyager". With strong sub-brands people know what they are getting when they purchase.

TPE of course used to be a sub-brand and was strong enough to become a TOC in its own right.

There have been lots of them, not just IC - several Regional Railways TOCs used "Alphaline" for a Class 158 with a trolley, for instance.

 

[Andyh82]

There's no point in rolling out the new brand into general use when you're not ready. This will disillusion people. Better to wait until you have some new trains ready.

Yes, but you regularly get stories from Northern about how they are introducing new trains soon, refurbishing trains, or increasing frequencies soon. They never mention that they are launching ‘Northern Connect’ soon.

 

[xotGD]

That requires longer platforms which at the end of the day, is out of Northern's control.

They appear to have been blissfully unaware that the platforms would not be ready at the same time that the new stock comes online. That suggests poor management, poor coordination with delivery partners or they were not being up front with the passengers.

 

[yorksrob]

I think the sub-brand (train category) thing is a really good idea, provided the quality is maintained. Most railways across the world do it, not to mention that VT do still differentiate "Virgin Pendolino" and "Virgin Voyager". With strong sub-brands people know what they are getting when they purchase.

TPE of course used to be a sub-brand and was strong enough to become a TOC in its own right.

There have been lots of them, not just IC - several Regional Railways TOCs used "Alphaline" for a Class 158 with a trolley, for instance.

Yes, I agree that so long as the brand is accompanied with some material improvements (the ability to get a cup of tea on long journeys would be a good one) it could be worthwhile.

Yes, but you regularly get stories from Northern about how they are introducing new trains soon, refurbishing trains, or increasing frequencies soon. They never mention that they are launching ‘Northern Connect’ soon.

If you're drip feeding information all the time, its more reason to keep something back for the big launch

 

[scrapy]

Yes, I agree that so long as the brand is accompanied with some material improvements (the ability to get a cup of tea on long journeys would be a good one) it could be worthwhile.

There may be the ability to get a cup of tea before or after long journeys but not on them unless the train has sufficient dwell time at a station en route.

Northern Connect stations are required in the franchise agreement to have a catering outlet, although it doesn't define what a catering outlet is. I would say a cafe or coffee stall. Arriva management do seem to think that a Selecta vending machine selling crisps, soft drinks and chocolate will pass as a catering outlet. It seems to be about providing the bare minimum rather than exceeding expectations.

 

[Bertie the bus]

I wouldn't describe what Northern do as drip feeding information. It is more constantly responding to negative stories with how they are delivering on their promises, blah, blah, blah and how it will be jam tomorrow. Not that many have experienced these alleged improvements or expect to in the near future.

 

[johntea]

Do people care that much about a brand? At the moment TPE passengers from Leeds to Huddersfield for example are being shuttled around for certain services on a Northern/Scotrail branded 170!

All most people want is to get from A to B on schedule and maybe even have some good customer service thrown in along the way, both of which Northern have arguably been struggling to provide for years! (No disrespect to the majority of front line staff however who generally go above and beyond)

Otherwise they'll just end up back 'connecting' between A and B in their car!

In regards catering, the Blackpool-Preston-Burnley-Halifax-Bradford-Leeds-York often feels more well stocked than Wetherspoons during weekends and summer with the amount of alcohol stag dos and the like consume on board

 

[MDB1images]

It's a bit like a resurrection of NorthWest Express, which was basically only differentiated by dedicated Class 156s (green stripe livery) and a trolley service.

Not forgetting the all important specific tie that Conductors needed to wear if working one of those services

 

[Bantamzen]

Do people care that much about a brand? At the moment TPE passengers from Leeds to Huddersfield for example are being shuttled around for certain services on a Northern/Scotrail branded 170!

All most people want is to get from A to B on schedule and maybe even have some good customer service thrown in along the way, both of which Northern have arguably been struggling to provide for years! (No disrespect to the majority of front line staff however who generally go above and beyond)

Otherwise they'll just end up back 'connecting' between A and B in their car!

In regards catering, the Blackpool-Preston-Burnley-Halifax-Bradford-Leeds-York often feels more well stocked than Wetherspoons during weekends and summer with the amount of alcohol stag dos and the like consume on board

Do people care about the brand? Probably not, at least directly. However Arriva have a remit to improve revenue and decrease subsidy requirements over the lifetime of the franchise agreement. So 'Connect' is probably their idea to rebrand some existing routes, as well as introduce new ones to attract new custom with an upgraded product on the existing ones. So new & fully refurbished/rebranded stock, extra onboard services, routes that connect to major leisure destinations etc are all part of that.

The trouble is on these forums that people often forget that TOCs are private companies, and as such expect to make money so branding is a big thing. I'm not saying it is the right model to use for public transport, but until central government ideology changes it is what it is.

 

[Glenn1969]

Maybe if the franchises were longer the infrastructure required could be built with private money on top of a government contribution? But that is a different debate

From a Calder Valley point of view I hope Northern are able to make some of the service enhancements that were in the Franchise agreement and we end up with 6tph Bradford -Halifax (2 fast Halifax- Rochdale- Manchester, 2 stopping Manchesters, 1 Huddersfield train and 1 Blackpool train) with Liverpool, Chester and Airport extensions hourly. Some in the Calder Valley also want a Huddersfield- Hebden Bridge train to aid commute for work and study from Calderdale to Huddersfield

 

[Bevan Price]

I had a discussion with a Northern director and there seemed some uncertainty whether the Northern Connect brand would actually launch this year or in the future. He certainly wouldn't be tied to anything saying that services would be branded as Northern for the forseeable future. That said Northern Connect is only a brand and the planned connect services would still be operated with mainly 331/195 traction with (except in North East) with seat reservations from December.

There seem to be no plans for any connect branding on the 331/195 trains that were shown in early computer generated pictures for the new trains. There also seems to be little evidence of plans to staff Connect stations from 06.00 to 22.00 or provide upgraded facilities.

And I suggest that reservations are a stupid idea on 2 or 3 coach trains used mainly for commuting services and leisure / shopping trips - often planned at short notice. It will cause a lot of passenger confusion and probably increase station dwell times as people hunt for unreserved seats, blocking gangways, whilst others cluster round the door areas, unable to pass quickly through those gangways.

 

[t52192]

So is the general consensus that although Bradford to Manchester Airport is on the Northern Connect list, there is not a chance of this happening within the next couple of years?

 

[Bantamzen]

So is the general consensus that although Bradford to Manchester Airport is on the Northern Connect list, there is not a chance of this happening within the next couple of years?

As things stand at this moment in time I'd be suprised, but no-one can say for sure that all the current services currently operating through Castlefield will remain as they are. It is entirely possible that some paths might be given up or diverted / split to make room.

 

[tbtc]

The delays through the Castlefield Corridor are not because of the Airport services. The delays are in part due to short-formed units, with delays mounting especially during peaks because too many passengers are trying to board trains with too little capacity. Other issues are / have been Northern services changing crews at Oxford Road, and prior to the latest TPE timetable recast them terminating at Piccadilly and tipping even more passengers off into the already busy platforms

The reason for the increase in problems through the Corridor are because there are now two TPE services per hour running that way to get from Stalybridge to the Airport (that previously reversed in the main shed at Piccadilly).

The path of the Liverpool - Warrington - Scarborough service has been taken up by a Liverpool - Warrington - Manchester Airport service, so the net gain is two additional services through an already busy corridor (with a Bradford service still in the pipeline).

going into panic mode will not encourage investment, it will kill it stone dead because you would hand the DfT and the Minister a 'Get out of Jail' card, allowing them to permanently shelve further improvements and insist that fewer services be allowed through the corridor, because "its difficult"

So we should keep cramming these short trains running long distance services through the bottleneck (and introduce additional ones), then cry to the Government when the infrastructure isn't fit for the number of trains that we'd ideally like to run?

I suppose that it's a way of making a political point (by making things so congested that they'll have to do something about it) but I'd rather had a public transport system designed to be reliable on the infrastructure that's available (which may mean fewer/longer trains) instead of one that seems designed to flop so badly that the only solution is to spend hundreds of millions of pounds in the medium/longer term.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The reason for the increase in problems through the Corridor are because there are now two TPE services per hour running that way to get from Stalybridge to the Airport (that previously reversed in the main shed at Piccadilly).

Though he does have a point in a way. Those trains are formed of DMUs with wide doors at thirds - a very similar layout to the Class 700s which manage a far higher intensity service on Thameslink, albeit with not quite as good circulating space.

Ending overcrowding on the Castlefield line by doubling train lengths (and something of that order is needed) could well sort this out. Not only would it mean faster boarding, but also as most trains would take up the whole of 13 or 14 instead of half of it, the passengers would spread out too.

TPE of course will be lengthening their trains by *almost* double, though not quite (and they will in my view need to all go to 7x22-23m or 6x26m soon enough). So time to do this with Northern too.

 

[Bantamzen]

The reason for the increase in problems through the Corridor are because there are now two TPE services per hour running that way to get from Stalybridge to the Airport (that previously reversed in the main shed at Piccadilly).

The path of the Liverpool - Warrington - Scarborough service has been taken up by a Liverpool - Warrington - Manchester Airport service, so the net gain is two additional services through an already busy corridor (with a Bradford service still in the pipeline).



So we should keep cramming these short trains running long distance services through the bottleneck (and introduce additional ones), then cry to the Government when the infrastructure isn't fit for the number of trains that we'd ideally like to run?

I suppose that it's a way of making a political point (by making things so congested that they'll have to do something about it) but I'd rather had a public transport system designed to be reliable on the infrastructure that's available (which may mean fewer/longer trains) instead of one that seems designed to flop so badly that the only solution is to spend hundreds of millions of pounds in the medium/longer term.

Who said anything about sticking with short formations through the corridor?

Though he does have a point in a way. Those trains are formed of DMUs with wide doors at thirds - a very similar layout to the Class 700s which manage a far higher intensity service on Thameslink, albeit with not quite as good circulating space.

Ending overcrowding on the Castlefield line by doubling train lengths (and something of that order is needed) could well sort this out. Not only would it mean faster boarding, but also as most trains would take up the whole of 13 or 14 instead of half of it, the passengers would spread out too.

TPE of course will be lengthening their trains by *almost* double, though not quite (and they will in my view need to all go to 7x22-23m or 6x26m soon enough). So time to do this with Northern too.

Thank you, this at least part of my point. A lot more capacity is on it's way which will result in quicker dwell times, which will lead to slightly better operations through the corridor. Whenever a short unit rocks up at P13/14 you can literally count the mounting minutes adding to delays for that and subsequent services. So getting the punters on a bit quicker is going to make a difference.

 

[fowler9]

Then do that, or change in Manchester onto some nice TPE LHCS (coming soon). The Airport tail cannot wag the network dog.

Not sure I agree. A limited stop service through from Manchester Airport, Manchester, Warrington (the biggest town in Cheshire) and Widnes to Liverpool should probably be high on the list for new stock. If it isn't then it appears other Northern Connect services to Blackpool and Preston from Manchester would be prioritised.

 

[js1000]

Not sure I agree. A limited stop service through from Manchester Airport, Manchester, Warrington (the biggest town in Cheshire) and Widnes to Liverpool should probably be high on the list for new stock. If it isn't then it appears other Northern Connect services to Blackpool and Preston from Manchester would be prioritised.

There is already a limited stop service from Manchester Airport to Liverpool via Warrington (calls at Mauldeth Road and Birchwood). If anything Northern want to add more stopping calls, particularly at peak times. From the new timetable this month, they've scrapped the service to airport during morning peak in favour of a service which skips the airport entirely and ends/starts in Wilmslow, making calls at East Didsbury and Mauldeth Road. This has got something to do with lack of platform capacity at the Airport but I don't think Northern have a massive issue with it as it will allow them to compete with Virgin & TfW for an express service into Manchester from Wilmslow. The Manchester Airport-Piccadilly services are saturated and the revenue growth potential there is slim.

The problem I see with Northern Connect is that it is an awkward, hybrid halfway house. It's not an express service nor is it a commuter service. There are two dangers with Northern Connect:

1) The Northern Connect services are longer services compared to Northern's historical operation - some in excess of 3 hours. Northern's management of these services will have to be spot on, as will Network Rail's maintenance programme to ensure reliability is consistent and passengers aren't put off travelling by train if the service is not reliable. Even today, a signal failure on the Styal Line turned everything to pot, affecting services as far away as Edinburgh and Newcastle.

2) That Northern Connect services start needlessly competing with TPE and effectively becomes express services which are prioritised over stopping services. Stopping services are still a vital part of the rail network as the vast majority of passengers join/leave the rail network at commuter stations. Even if timetables have stops at commuter stations, the reality is that if the service is running late, chances are they will skip the smaller stations. If it happens too often > passengers stop using the train as it can't be relied upon > Northern loses revenue.

I know some like the idea of Northern Connect but there are inherent dangers I feel that could torpedo the whole idea of a hybrid express/commuter service that Northern Connect aspires to be. (from my impressions anyway)