Will the class 800/801 tilt?

[Joshrowlands]

Hi guys just a quick question, just wondering will the new hitachi class 800/801's be tilting trains? Just makes sense that such modern trains would buy from what I've read about them I don't think they are, any answers and details will be appreciated guys thank you feel free to discuss

 

[HSTfan!!!]

I don't believe they will and there would be little point certainly on the GWML, it's a relatively straight route, thus you're not gaining anything. I'm not clued up on the ECML but I imagine it's a similar story.

 

[SeanG]

The ECML gets pretty twisty Darlington - Newcastle and to a lesser extent in the borders.

However I don't think there would be enough benefit in journey time reductions to make it worthwhile

 

[Murph]

Thankfully no, they won't even be tilt-profile. The reason I say "thankfully" is because the last thing we need is another Voyager fleet. Underfloor engines + tilt profile is a dreadful combination, as you end up with a horribly cramped interior with too-narrow seats, and a too-narrow aisle.

Of course, underfloor engines are frankly a mistake anyway, regardless of body profile. It's just a bad and unnecessary compromise for a top tier IC train, in the designed by committee IEP.

 

[Joshrowlands]

Thankfully no, they won't even be tilt-profile. The reason I say "thankfully" is because the last thing we need is another Voyager fleet. Underfloor engines + tilt profile is a dreadful combination, as you end up with a horribly cramped interior with too-narrow seats, and a too-narrow aisle.

Of course, underfloor engines are frankly a mistake anyway, regardless of body profile. It's just a bad and unnecessary compromise for a top tier IC train, in the designed by committee IEP.

Yeah I really like the pendolinos and super voyagers they are so smooth and stylish and very quiet but they are very cramped the past 3 times I've been to London I've been on a virgin then when I went on a London midland class 350 desiro I couldn't believe how spacious and light it was haha however i do like tilting trains

 

[najaB]

Yeah I really like the pendolinos and super voyagers they are so smooth and stylish and very quiet ...

There's two phrases I never thought I see in the same sentence!

 

[samuelmorris]

I didn't find the voyagers especially noisy compared to any other DMU - obviously they're noisier than locomotive hauled stock or Pendolinos but acceptable enough - the cramped interior is by far the more valid criticism, a little claustrophobic but otherwise still pretty reasonable in my opinion.

Having had somewhat precariously loaded luggage racks sitting next to me in the past I can vouch for the ECML being a bit twisty in several areas south of York, though admittedly probably not enough to justify tilting trains. If it did, I like to think the 800/801s would have been ordered such.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There's two phrases I never thought I see in the same sentence!

They're noisy starting off and from the outside. From the inside once going, unlike Class 185s and similar, the engine noise is a sort-of rumble not dissimilar to track noise. So I agree with the other poster, they aren't overly noisy from the passenger's point of view.

Neil

 

[Tracked]

When they're half-empty Voyagers are quite good, I don't mind the engine noise that much, it's just that generally they're packed full of people and the toilet smell gets quite a way out of the toilet. The Pendo's are alright if you get a window, the Stafford-London section is fun when you don't stop anywhere!

The Meridians seemed better than both though, in contrast, and if Grand Central would screw some of the fittings down the 180's are good (the first time I went on one I was impressed, have been on them a few times since and some of them don't half rattle)

 

[cjmillsnun]

When they're half-empty Voyagers are quite good, I don't mind the engine noise that much, it's just that generally they're packed full of people and the toilet smell gets quite a way out of the toilet. The Pendo's are alright if you get a window, the Stafford-London section is fun when you don't stop anywhere!

The Meridians seemed better than both though, in contrast, and if Grand Central would screw some of the fittings down the 180's are good (the first time I went on one I was impressed, have been on them a few times since and some of them don't half rattle)

TBF the 180s are well overdue a refurb.

 

[Mr395008]

TBF the 180s are well overdue a refurb.

Didn't GC announce a refurb will take place soon?

 

[cjmillsnun]

Didn't GC announce a refurb will take place soon?

I believe they did.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Thankfully no, they won't even be tilt-profile. The reason I say "thankfully" is because the last thing we need is another Voyager fleet. Underfloor engines + tilt profile is a dreadful combination, as you end up with a horribly cramped interior with too-narrow seats, and a too-narrow aisle.

Of course, underfloor engines are frankly a mistake anyway, regardless of body profile. It's just a bad and unnecessary compromise for a top tier IC train, in the designed by committee IEP.

Underfloor engines are probably how it's always going to be now, if you use an HST as an example you have two power cars which can't take any passengers, more passengers means more revenue for the toc and I think that units with underfloor engines don't cost as much for track access charges (there's a link to a list in another thread).

 

[starrymarkb]

Here is how to built a tilting underfloor diesel unit.

http://youtu.be/MaYmv0WTiqk

Unfortunately they suffer overcrowding due to their short length (sound familiar? - though for DB/DSB the length was limited by the need to fit on the Germany-Copenhagen Ferries)

 

[fgwrich]

Here is how to built a tilting underfloor diesel unit.

http://youtu.be/MaYmv0WTiqk

Unfortunately they suffer overcrowding due to their short length (sound familiar? - though for DB/DSB the length was limited by the need to fit on the Germany-Copenhagen Ferries)

Ironically, Had the IEP been not thrown upon us in a do as your told scenario by the DfT, and First got their own way then we might have had a Non Tilting and longer UK version of Siemens ICE TD as First were originally touting as their choice of HST replacement.

I wouldn't actually mind having something like that over here too, as long as it's as good as a 180 - although this being Siemens, and up to the other ICE build qualities I should have expected so!

 

[BananaRepublic]

....the past 3 times I've been to London I've been on a virgin.....

???????



--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

......Of course, underfloor engines are frankly a mistake anyway, regardless of body profile. It's just a bad and unnecessary compromise for a top tier IC train, in the designed by committee IEP.

Those engines won't be running for the greater part of their journeys, where they'll be powered from the overhead AC.

Note also that these trains were not designed by a "committee".
The IEP (that's a programme by the way and not the name of any train) produced a series of detailed specifications. The bidders for the contract designed the trains to meet those specifications, using their own interpretations of how to meet the specs.

Hitachi's original version of their winning bid (the SET), placed the diesel generators in driving power cars (ala HST without the traction motors).
For reasons long debated and deliberated about in this place and elsewhere, the design was later changed to using multiple underfloor engines. Who decided to use this solution is open to debate.



--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Ironically, Had the IEP been not thrown upon us in a do as your told scenario by the DfT, and First got their own way then we might have had a Non Tilting and longer UK version of Siemens ICE TD as First were originally touting as their choice of HST replacement.

Isn't that urban myth and nonsense?
The Intercity express programme was created largely in part due to the incumbent operators at the time (GNER & FGW) and the ROSCO's, having no interest in replacement stock so far out in the future and were in no financial position to place orders for trains due to be delivered two franchise terms beyond their then current tenure.
FGW talked about future trains, but were not in any sort of position to do anything about it within the prevailing short franchise holding periods.
GNER were struggling to look beyond the end of their own nose, such was the perilous state of their parent company and their own inability to meet their over-bid financial franchise commitments.


.

 

[contrex]

Not being funny, joshrowloands, but have you heard of Google?

 

[RichmondCommu]

Yeah I really like the pendolinos and super voyagers they are so smooth and stylish and very quiet but they are very cramped the past 3 times I've been to London I've been on a virgin then when I went on a London midland class 350 desiro I couldn't believe how spacious and light it was haha however i do like tilting trains

I bet they were squealing like stuck pigs.

 

[Joshrowlands]

Not being funny, joshrowloands, but have you heard of Google?

It's joshrowlands* please spell my name right. And yes use it quite frequently however sometimes if I want a more detailed answer from people who know a lot more about a certian subject I'll ask on here it isn't a crime is it?

 

[221129]

Not being funny, joshrowloands, but have you heard of Google?

Or the search function...

 

[Joshrowlands]

Or the search function...

I'm new here? I'm not causing anyone any harm am I?

 

[cjmillsnun]

No you're not.

Some people just have a short fuse

 

[Joshrowlands]

No you're not.

Some people just have a short fuse

Are you one of those people?

 

[Lrd]

Are you one of those people?

He was sticking up for you!

 

[Carlisle]

It's a shame we won't see Pendilinos ordered for the East Coast, I think they could have eventually offered some worthwhile journey time reductions although I realise these wouldn't have been huge

 

[najaB]

I think they could have offered some worthwhile journey time reductions although I realise these wouldn't have been huge

I don't really see that much of a difference compared to the Class 800's.

 

[Murph]

It's a shame we won't see Pendilinos ordered for the East Coast, I think they could have eventually offered some worthwhile journey time reductions although I realise these wouldn't have been huge

ECML doesn't need tilting for speed, to the same extent that WCML absolutely does need it above 100mph. The potential for significant time saving just isn't there, and it's far more feasible to work on the infrastructure to progressively ease the permanent speed restrictions which are solely due to curvature (near impossible to do that for WCML, without more or less completely rebuilding it). Pendolinos would have been a dreadful choice for ECML because of the unnecessarily cramped interior due to the tilt profile. On top of that, they are old and out of date now, relatively speaking (technology is obsolete by the time 10 years have passed, if not quicker). The only positive that I see for using them on ECML would have been that it would be much less likely to have underfloor diesels on them, probably going to the far better arrangement of a power car at one end.

 

[TheKnightWho]

ECML doesn't need tilting for speed, to the same extent that WCML absolutely does need it above 100mph. The potential for significant time saving just isn't there, and it's far more feasible to work on the infrastructure to progressively ease the permanent speed restrictions which are solely due to curvature (near impossible to do that for WCML, without more or less completely rebuilding it). Pendolinos would have been a dreadful choice for ECML because of the unnecessarily cramped interior due to the tilt profile. On top of that, they are old and out of date now, relatively speaking (technology is obsolete by the time 10 years have passed, if not quicker). The only positive that I see for using them on ECML would have been that it would be much less likely to have underfloor diesels on them, probably going to the far better arrangement of a power car at one end.

From Darlington to Edinburgh there can be considerable problems due to curvature. Admittedly the advantage would be fairly negligible south of there, but times to Edinburgh could have seen some decent improvements I imagine.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

The only positive that I see for using them on ECML would have been that it would be much less likely to have underfloor diesels on them, probably going to the far better arrangement of a power car at one end.

"Power cars" are very unlikely for any new builds as they're "wasted space" as far as tocs will be concerned. It's approx one coach where you can't have passengers. Say a coach could hold 50 passengers seated and say 30 standing, and each of them has bought a ticket worth say £100 that's £8k of revenue that would be lost for each train that had a power car (double that if that train has a power car at each end). When you times that by however many services that train would run in a year, that's a lot of money lost

 

[Murph]

"Power cars" are very unlikely for any new builds as they're "wasted space" as far as tocs will be concerned. It's approx one coach where you can't have passengers. Say a coach could hold 50 passengers seated and say 30 standing, and each of them has bought a ticket worth say £100 that's £8k of revenue that would be lost for each train that had a power car (double that if that train has a power car at each end). When you times that by however many services that train would run in a year, that's a lot of money lost

You're significantly over-inflating the numbers there. The leading and trailing coaches are only 50-75% passenger capacity anyway on high speed trains. Use the power car for bulk luggage and/or catering storage, and/or use a much shorter vehicle (HST power cars are only 17.8m, with 23m trailers), and you negate at least some of the lost passenger space.