Will you follow the advice on face coverings?

[Bletchleyite]

So people should be putting on & removing masks throughout the day as they pass through different places, or should they be buying a new mask for each shop / train etc? Because the general guidance for using masks is that you shouldn't be constantly doing so.

No, it's not. That's gloves. With masks, it's about when they get touched or when they wet out.

 

[Bantamzen]

No, it's not. That's gloves. With masks, it's about when they get touched or when they wet out.

But if you are taking masks on and off again you are surely touching them? Unless of course some tech company has come up with a Bluetooth version that you can use your mobile to raise and lower....

 

[Bletchleyite]

But if you are taking masks on and off again you are surely touching them? Unless of course some tech company has come up with a Bluetooth version that you can use your mobile to raise and lower....

With practice you can put them on and off without touching the bit that does the protection, a bit like correctly applying a sticking plaster.

 

[Bantamzen]

With practice you can put them on and off without touching the bit that does the protection, a bit like correctly applying a sticking plaster.

And is this really going to happen? I don't mean in the perfect, uniform, clock face, everything 15 minutes, reserved only world [1], but in the real, imperfect one? I've seen cloth masks ragged off, left under the chin, even put down on surfaces then re-worn.

[1] This is a private(ish) joke in case anyone was wondering

 

[Bletchleyite]

[1] This is a private(ish) joke in case anyone was wondering

 

[43066]

Precisely. That isn't the world I want to love in or want my kids to live in. It's one of the reasons I'm completely against wearing masks outside of clinical settings. If they weren't completely pointless I might feel a little differently.

Yep. That’s my take on it, too,

As far as I can see there still hasn’t been any conclusive evidence of benefit to wearing masks in non clinical settings. Post #41 above provided a useful summary of available (inconclusive) evidence.

There’s so much hysteria and irrationality around. TFL and Network Rail are now asking people to wear face coverings. No doubt soon those of us who choose not to wear masks will be “socially shamed” by the same “holier than thou” people who want lockdown to continue until a vaccine is created.

From my observation those choosing to wear face coverings are (inevitably) not following the advice correctly and are still wearing masks with outlet valves (pointless), Heath Robinson DIY masks etc. People are like sheep and want to be seen to be doing “something”, and there’s an under current of virtue signalling.

I suspect there’s a strong psychological factor. The (many) people who are irrationally terrified of this virus are likely to want to irrationally wear a face covering, just because it makes them feel better.

There's very little evidence for this statement. The masks4all site that you pushed in earlier posts has some graphs which support their agenda - apparent big falls in infection rates from selected countries that enforced mask wearing Vs no falls in countries that haven't.
But they are now over 3 weeks out of date, and it conveniently ignores the fact that the selected mask wearing countries were hit earlier than the non-mask wearing countries, therefore they peaked sooner.
If you update the charts you find little difference in the epidemic curves.

There's lies, damned lies and then there's cherry picked statistics.

Exactly. All the countries mentioned have introduced social distancing at the same time (which is known to be conclusively beneficial). And of course there are many other factors such as how quickly measures were brought in, population density etc.

 

[MarkyT]

And is this really going to happen? I don't mean in the perfect, uniform, clock face, everything 15 minutes, reserved only world [1], but in the real, imperfect one? I've seen cloth masks ragged off, left under the chin, even put down on surfaces then re-worn.

[1] This is a private(ish) joke in case anyone was wondering

For the purpose of source control, individual mask hygiene is less important (not entirely unimportant clearly though) for the wearer, because the purpose is to keep the air, especially in a confined area, comparatively clear of contaminated aerosol that could possibly be exhaled by the wearer in the first place, and as long as the all or at least the vast majority do actually wear some kind of covering most of the time in that environment, that should be the case. This is not the same scenario as medical staff attempting to protect themselves by masking in a known highly contaminated area such as a hospital COVID ward, where strict mask hygiene protocol is critical.

 

[MarkyT]

From my observation those choosing to wear face coverings are (inevitably) not following the advice correctly and are still wearing masks with outlet valves (pointless), Heath Robinson DIY masks etc. People are like sheep and want to be seen to be doing “something”, and there’s an under current of virtue signalling.

The outlet valve masks are, as you correctly point out, completely useless for the purpose of source control. Cloth masks with two or three layers of tight weave material have been found to be approximately as effective as surgical masks. Source control is, in fact, the primary purpose of surgical masks worn in an operating theatre setting, to protect the patient from pathogens potentially exhaled by the close working medical staff.

 

[Bantamzen]

For the purpose of source control, individual mask hygiene is less important (not entirely unimportant clearly though) for the wearer, because the purpose is to keep the air, especially in a confined area, comparatively clear of contaminated aerosol that could possibly be exhaled by the wearer in the first place, and as long as the all or at least the vast majority do actually wear some kind of covering most of the time in that environment, that should be the case. This is not the same scenario as medical staff attempting to protect themselves by masking in a known highly contaminated area such as a hospital COVID ward, where strict mask hygiene protocol is critical.

There are other ways to keep indoor air safe, you'll note that bus companies for example ask that passengers keep windows open to dilute the air for example. So looking at how air flows through buildings and maximising fresh air circulation wherever possible could be as effective, and a lot less intrusive. And there will still always be places where wearing them is not practicable such as restaurants. Masks are far from the ideal solution, the evidence supporting their effectiveness is still inconclusive, and they can even cause problems for their wearers. And when supports of them like yourself offer up dubious, confirmation bias seeking sites like masksforall one can't help but wonder why.

 

[MarkyT]

There are other ways to keep indoor air safe, you'll note that bus companies for example ask that passengers keep windows open to dilute the air for example. So looking at how air flows through buildings and maximising fresh air circulation wherever possible could be as effective, and a lot less intrusive. And there will still always be places where wearing them is not practicable such as restaurants. Masks are far from the ideal solution, the evidence supporting their effectiveness is still inconclusive, and they can even cause problems for their wearers. And when supports of them like yourself offer up dubious, confirmation bias seeking sites like masksforall one can't help but wonder why.

I agree that those methods are beneficial and could also be applied in conjunction with masking. I am disturbed at the implications of your accusation. I can assure you I am not 'in the pay' of some shadowy organisation, and at a total loss as to what nefarious purpose any such body might have in promoting masks anyway, especially home-made and similar examples. If anything, notional 'new world order' authoritarian regimes would almost certainly want to avoid citizens covering their faces, as this could disrupt the identification of individuals in crowds. In fact, early on in Hong Kong's outbreak, Chinese authorities did attempt to ban mask-wearing entirely, due to the ongoing protests. Although some people were arrested and fined for the offence, the law was successfully challenged, and anyway the vast majority of their population had already begun wearing and in that city of 7.5million people there have been a total of four deaths over the entire course of the epidemic and they have now stopped publishing the 'R number' because it is incalculable with no new infections. Although some classes of businesses involving large crowds, particularly those indoors like cinemas, had to cease trading, there was no general lockdown and most shops and offices remained open. I have simply been convinced by the arguments of many rational people looking at international examples of how outbreaks were handled and am attempting to promote my understanding because I believe it is of supreme importance for public health. You are entirely free to disagree with me, but you are just one reader among many.

 

[43066]

I agree that those methods are beneficial and could also be applied in conjunction with masking. I am disturbed at the implications of your accusation. I can assure you I am not 'in the pay' of some shadowy organsiation, and I am at a total loss as to what nefarious purpose any such body might have in promoting masks anyway, especially home-made and similar examples. If anything, notional 'new world order' authoritarian regimes would almost certainly want to avoid citizens covering their faces, as this could disrupt identification of people in crowds. In fact, early on in Hong Kong's outbreak, Chinese authorities attempted to ban mask wearing due to the ongoing protests. Althouh some people were fined, the law was successfully challenged, and anyway the vast majority of their population had already begun wearing immediately and in that city of 7.5million people there have been a total of four deaths and they have stopped measuring the R number becasue it is incalculabe with . The population masked up nonetheless and despite and I have simply been convinced by the arguments of many rational people and am atttempting to promotee my understanding becasue I believe it is really important for public health. You of course are entirely free to disagree with me, but you are just one reader.

But we also know that the virus was jumped on in China at a much earlier stage, and with a much stricter version of lockdown and distancing, than would ever have been acceptable in the west - ie measures that are known to be effective. That could just as well explain the low number of deaths.

IIRC there was a major study undertaken on mask wearing in Asia generally (where it’s culturally much more common, even absent a pandemic), and the results didn’t show any particular benefit.

 

[Bantamzen]

I agree that those methods are beneficial and could also be applied in conjunction with masking. I am disturbed at the implications of your accusation. I can assure you I am not 'in the pay' of some shadowy organisation, and at a total loss as to what nefarious purpose any such body might have in promoting masks anyway, especially home-made and similar examples. If anything, notional 'new world order' authoritarian regimes would almost certainly want to avoid citizens covering their faces, as this could disrupt the identification of individuals in crowds. In fact, early on in Hong Kong's outbreak, Chinese authorities did attempt to ban mask-wearing entirely, due to the ongoing protests. Although some people were arrested and fined for the offence, the law was successfully challenged, and anyway the vast majority of their population had already begun wearing and in that city of 7.5million people there have been a total of four deaths over the entire course of the epidemic and they have now stopped publishing the 'R number' because it is incalculable with no new infections. Although some classes of businesses involving large crowds, particularly those indoors like cinemas, had to cease trading, there was no general lockdown and most shops and offices remained open. I have simply been convinced by the arguments of many rational people looking at international examples of how outbreaks were handled and am attempting to promote my understanding because I believe it is of supreme importance for public health. You are entirely free to disagree with me, but you are just one reader among many.

I am not accusing you of being in anyone's pay, but I can't help but feel you are grimly determined to make us all wear masks on what is far from conclusive evidence. You are not alone in this, I know other people who are equally determined to force this onto people for their own reassurance. But like many others I am unconvinced by your arguments, and you do keep falling back on the same source time & again, one which frankly makes a bit of a mockery of itself with those rather sad looking photoshopped pictures in the 'About Us' section. It kind of sums up its credibility, and perhaps even reduces it.

As you say, I am but one person, as are you. And yes, I strongly disagree with you.

 

[MarkyT]

But we also know that the virus was jumped on in China at a much earlier stage, and with a much stricter version of lockdown and distancing, than would ever have been acceptable in the west - ie measures that are known to be effective. That could just as well explain the low number of deaths.

IIRC there was a major study undertaken on mask wearing in Asia generally (where it’s culturally much more common, even absent a pandemic), and the results didn’t show any particular benefit.

China enforced very onerous stay at home lockdowns on a localised basis, particularly around Wuhan, and also heavily restricted longer distance travel around the country. While I have no respect for the general authoritarianism and cruelty of the regime, it was particularly effective in enforcing these restrictions. The measures you describe were not applied globally throughout China however, and certainly not at all in Hong Kong or Taiwan. Other East Asian countries followed similar policies to Taiwan and HK, although I think some had to impose some temporary localised lockdowns for a time. It must be said however that East Asians have recent experience of similar outbreaks and 'know the score'. In New York City, certain Chinese dominated neighbourhoods immediately implemented standard disease protocols of distanceing, masking and avoiding large gatherings without being told to by authorities. This was not because they were under 'remote control' by the communist party; many Chinese in the US and elsewhere are there because they had to get away from the regime. It was simply cultural knowledge that has perhaps been forgotten or never learned in the west. The Chinese communities generally fared much better in NYC than others living nearby who did not know the importance of applying such measures instinctively.

 

[xc170]

It can and should be made compulsory in small spaces, where distancing is most difficult, such as onboard trains and buses.

No, it really shouldn't be.

It should be personal choice.

 

[43066]

China enforced very onerous stay at home lockdowns on a localised basis, particularly around Wuhan, and also heavily restricted longer distance travel around the country. While I have no respect for the general authoritarianism and cruelty of the regime, it was particularly effective in enforcing these restrictions. The measures you describe were not applied globally throughout China however, and certainly not at all in Hong Kong or Taiwan. Other East Asian countries followed similar policies to Taiwan and HK, although I think some had to impose some temporary localised lockdowns for a time. It must be said however that East Asians have recent experience of similar outbreaks and 'know the score'. In New York City, certain Chinese dominated neighbourhoods immediately implemented standard disease protocols of distanceing, masking and avoiding large gatherings without being told to by authorities. This was not because they were under 'remote control' by the communist party; many Chinese in the US and elsewhere are there because they had to get away from the regime. It was simply cultural knowledge that has perhaps been forgotten or never learned in the west. The Chinese communities generally fared much better in NYC than others living nearby who did not know the importance of applying such measures instinctively.

I completely agree with you re. the appalling cruelty of the Chinese regime. One of the most unpleasant aspects of the current crisis is that, for the first time, we in the UK have had a taste of living in a police state.

Re. the masking question. I suppose the difficulty is that correlation doesn’t necessarily equal causation. Masking is more readily accepted in these cultures, but so are other measures such as social distancing.

I remain unconvinced that there is any conclusive data showing that masks are effective - I certainly haven’t seen any posted on this thread - however there have been academic studies referenced showing the evidence, such as there is, is inconclusive at best (as per post #41).

Until we have definitive evidence that masking works, I remain of the view that compulsory mask wearing is an unjustifiable step. It’s also a possible distraction from the measures we know DO work in reducing deaths, such as social distancing, isolation of the vulnerable etc.

 

[midland1]

Just seen the press conference for today 29 May. According to there figures some of which I have always doubted 29% off people wear a mask when outside. Where I live Leicester area it must be more like 1 in 50 so where do they get there figures from!

 

[Huntergreed]

Just seen the press conference for today 29 May. According to there figures some of which I have always doubted 29% off people wear a mask when outside. Where I live Leicester area it must be more like 1 in 50 so where do they get there figures from!

I imagine it was a survey where a question was asked “do you wear a mask when out in an enclosed area?” and, afraid of being shamed for not following the guidance, a number of people claimed to do so when in fact this is not the case.

 

[sheff1]

Just seen the press conference for today 29 May. According to there figures some of which I have always doubted 29% off people wear a mask when outside. Where I live Leicester area it must be more like 1 in 50 so where do they get there figures from!

Round here it is far less than 29% too. Anecdotal I know, but the number seems to be even less than it was a couple of weeks ago.

I imagine it was a survey where a question was asked “do you wear a mask when out in an enclosed area?” and, afraid of being shamed for not following the guidance, a number of people claimed to do so when in fact this is not the case.

Just what I was going to say.

 

[Bantamzen]

Just seen the press conference for today 29 May. According to there figures some of which I have always doubted 29% off people wear a mask when outside. Where I live Leicester area it must be more like 1 in 50 so where do they get there figures from!

I'm going to guess... https://masks4all.co/

In my part of the world the ratio is more like 1 in 1000, in fact it is extremely rare to see anyone wearing masks outdoors or even in supermarkets. Quite a few people started out with them at the beginning of the crisis, but Maskivist compliance has been steadily falling away ever since. And surprisingly we are not yet tripping over bodies in the streets as some would have us believe we would without wrapping out faces and awful breath up. Maybe it will come with the 2nd, 3rd of 4th coming....

 

[Butts]

Just seen the press conference for today 29 May. According to there figures some of which I have always doubted 29% off people wear a mask when outside. Where I live Leicester area it must be more like 1 in 50 so where do they get there figures from!

Probably from Waitrose or M&S !!

 

[Smidster]

Just seen the press conference for today 29 May. According to there figures some of which I have always doubted 29% off people wear a mask when outside. Where I live Leicester area it must be more like 1 in 50 so where do they get there figures from!

That figure comes from the ONS and the latest Covid Social Impact Survey - https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopula...usandthesocialimpactsongreatbritain/29may2020

Off topic but The figure that stands out to me is actually this one

Almost 3 in 10 adults (29%) said they felt unsafe or very unsafe when outside of their home this week, compared with over 4 in 10 (41%) last week - that isn't a good place to be

 

[Starmill]

No, it really shouldn't be.

It should be personal choice.

In my opinion the evidence is entirely sufficient to say that it's reasonable to exclude people who exercise their right not to wear a mask from being on a train or bus, which is a sealed, confined space where others cannot be far away from a non-mask wearer. This has happened in other countries and is not a great imposition on civil liberty, and can be timebound. In particular, people need to see everyone else (or almost everyone else) wearing one in order to become comfortable with the idea for themselves, and also because they broadly will understand that the masks others are wearing are there for their protection, not the wearers of the masks themselves.

However, many people here will insist their own right to do as they please, without regard to the potential negative consequences for others, so it's unlikely to happen.

 

[Starmill]

Almost 3 in 10 adults (29%) said they felt unsafe or very unsafe when outside of their home this week, compared with over 4 in 10 (41%) last week - that isn't a good place to be

Is it a surprise? After more than two months of severe restrictions on people's lives, the reproduction rate of the disease is... only a whisker below 1. This means ~55,000 people per week being infected still. That is very significant. Extremely poor performance by the UK. If this is all we've bought with our weeks of sacrifice...

 

[MarkyT]

Is it a surprise? After more than two months of severe restrictions on people's lives, the reproduction rate of the disease is... only a whisker below 1. This means ~55,000 people per week being infected still. That is very significant. Extremely poor performance by the UK. If this is all we've bought with our weeks of sacrifice...

We've not yet bought the right to travel to Greece, or Cyprus, for holidays from mid-June. Britain remains firmly on the banned list until further notice:

Greece bans Brits when it reopens to tourists due to poor coronavirus record

Greece has released its latest travel advice and told millions of Brits hoping for a summer holiday to Greece that they're not welcome when the country reopens to tourists next month

www.mirror.co.uk

Greece has banned Brits when it reopens to tourists due to our poor coronavirus record.
The government has said they will accept tourists from a list of 29 countries when international flights resume on June 15. But the UK has not made the cut as expected after Greek tourism minister Haris Theoharis told ITV News that the UK's record on coronavirus is currently not good enough.

 

[43066]

We've not yet bought the right to travel to Greece, or Cyprus, for holidays from mid-June. Britain remains firmly on the banned list until further notice:

Greece bans Brits when it reopens to tourists due to poor coronavirus record

Greece has released its latest travel advice and told millions of Brits hoping for a summer holiday to Greece that they're not welcome when the country reopens to tourists next month

www.mirror.co.uk

It will be interesting to see how long that approach lasts for, given how tourism-reliant those economies are.

The bigger issue holding back Brits back from going abroad in the short term (assuming there are any airlines left to transport them!) will be the 14 day quarantine requirement upon return.

 

[43066]

That figure comes from the ONS and the latest Covid Social Impact Survey - https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopula...usandthesocialimpactsongreatbritain/29may2020

Off topic but The figure that stands out to me is actually this one

Almost 3 in 10 adults (29%) said they felt unsafe or very unsafe when outside of their home this week, compared with over 4 in 10 (41%) last week - that isn't a good place to be

On the assumption that the people going out are not in vulnerable categories, that figure says something very negative about our population’s understanding of risk!

 

[yorksrob]

that figure says something very negative about our population’s understanding of risk!

As railway people, we already knew that !

 

[Bantamzen]

It will be interesting to see how long that approach lasts for, given how tourism-reliant those economies are.

The bigger issue holding back Brits back from going abroad in the short term (assuming there are any airlines left to transport them!) will be the 14 day quarantine requirement upon return.

It won't be long, trust me.

 

[317 forever]

I haven't found a single shop selling them. On line seems to have several weeks "and then maybe" delivery - but pay now.

I had an excellent service when I ordered 2 masks from Etsy. I ordered them last Friday and they arrived on Saturday! So no delay at all.

 

[High Dyke]

Went to an M&S simply food yesterday. I don't think anyone was wearing a face covering including the staff. Mind you it wasn't at all crowded so distancing was very easy. Much more relaxing than one of the big supermarkets.

Work wise I'm a train conductor and we've been told we have to do it whether we want to or not to set a good example and are being issued so many disposable 'not a surgical mask but looks like one anyway' type face coverings per shift, to be worn when working trains. Drivers only have to when travelling pass in a nutshell. Also expected to wear them if travelling off duty for whatever reason.

Already seeing complaints about it being uncomfortable and claustrophobic for a whole shift, the company have said if you have your own that work better for you you can use those as long as they're vaguely professional.

I've got nearly 90 minutes travelling pass tomorrow in one go, not particularly looking forward to the experience.

Yep, the wife would agree. She had hers on for about a minute the other day, but removed it as it was starting to cause irritation. Luckily she's got a scarf she can make use of when needed.

I don't need expect to wear one at work, even though we've had some masks supplied. Though whilst shopping last week I was wearing the neck warmer/buff I've purchased. The only problem I found was that wearing glasses caused me to steam up and not want to wear the item for too long - it was a warm sunny day.