WMR Class 196 Build and Implementation

[MaidaVale]

He also things New St 4c could take 6 cars, so I think he may just be plucking numbers out of the sky

I did say 6 cars at the very most, my Wellington Eastbound and Cosford numbers are based on experience, Having seen a 10 car 221 fit 7 cars (although all coaches in the rear 5 were locked out of use until Birmingham) at Wellington on the eastbound platform, and seen 6 coaches of a 221 comfortably on the platform of Cosford whilst seeing one passing.

Platform 4C at BHM is 110m, So now having calculated it, could fit 5 carriages, hence why I said that it'd likely require the use of a different platform (which a number of Shrewsbury services do anyway), guestimating at 6 carriages based on eyeballing it. Whether or not 5 carriages would be cleared for service into 4C is another story, not my area of expertise, although based on measurements, it could do so, and would be required to do so once the 5 car 730s enter service (as LNWR services to Crewe & Liverpool often use 4C).

Completely slipped my mind about Shrewsbury's bays, Didn't really process it properly at 1 in the morning, They'd obviously be too small to fit 6 or 8 coaches, so the use of P4 or P7 would be needed to fit them in this formation. P4 would be an obvious no-go as this is required for main through services such as the MAN-CDF (and beyond)s and the BHI-CTR (and beyond)s. Platform 7 could be used, as it has been used for terminating services (particularly TfW and Avanti ones) previously, although not as a regular occurrence, so could only be used to terminate often if the Crewe locals were relocated, of which there is nowhere to do so.




Further edit: Looking at measurements for Shrewsbury's P5 bay, It could in theory fit a 6 car unit, although it'd be a tight fit as to not block the points for other trains to access P6 whilst P5 was occupied. P5 is 2 metres short of being able to fit an 8 car (although even if it was 2 metres longer, it would block the points to P6). These reasons would make it unlikely for P5 to be cleared for a 6 car unit, although physically able.

 

[GWVillager]

With reference to my earlier post on the pair of 170s still diagrammed on Birmingham to Hereford, I noticed today that it was instead operated by a pair of 172/0s, something that has not happened before in my memory. The last time I saw the usual 170s on it was the 31st May. Could anyone else with the capacity to observe the route keep an eye on whether the 170s return? As sad as this is, it could be a promising sign that WMR thinks they’ll have enough 172s to tide them over until the 196s arrive, hinting at a quite near introduction date.

 

[MaidaVale]

With reference to my earlier post on the pair of 170s still diagrammed on Birmingham to Hereford, I noticed today that it was instead operated by a pair of 172/0s, something that has not happened before in my memory. The last time I saw the usual 170s on it was the 31st May. Could anyone else with the capacity to observe the route keep an eye on whether the 170s return? As sad as this is, it could be a promising sign that WMR thinks they’ll have enough 172s to tide them over until the 196s arrive, hinting at a quite near introduction date.

I've seen a pair of 172/0s on the Hereford service previously, but only once that I can recall. I don't think there is enough 172s (of any variation) to completely substitute the 170 diagrams and run services to a decent standard capacity on the Snow Hill Lines, so I find it unlikely. I don't think that any 172s are permitted on the Shrewsbury route either, despite having it on the in-carriage maps (correct me if I'm wrong), So the Hereford/Worcester lines would most likely keep at least some 170 diagrams until the 196s are introduced on Shrewsbury via Telford runs, and the 170s are completely released of their duties.

 

[tomuk]

Platform 7 could be used, as it has been used for terminating services (particularly TfW and Avanti ones) previously, although not as a regular occurrence, so could only be used to terminate often if the Crewe locals were relocated, of which there is nowhere to do so.

Platform 7 isn't bi-directional like Platform 4 there is no passenger signalled route into Platform 7 from the South (Wolverhampton or Hereford lines). All trains entering Platform 7 (Up Platform) have to from the North (Chester and Crewe Lines). To arrive/depart from the Wolverhampton lines you can use 4,5,6 or arrive on 3 and shunt via Coton Hill or Crewe Bank to leave on 7 (or 4).

 

[43102EMR]

Good to hear, they look very sad next to the WMT coloured ones, maybe because their livery is so drab to begin with.

For me personally, the livery’s fine - it’s just WMR do the bare minimum regarding interior and exterior cleaning. Then again, this is classic Abellio - even the new trains on Greater Anglia are starting to be an absolute state cleanliness wise!

 

[MaidaVale]

Platform 7 isn't bi-directional like Platform 4 there is no passenger signalled route into Platform 7 from the South (Wolverhampton or Hereford lines). All trains entering Platform 7 (Up Platform) have to from the North (Chester and Crewe Lines). To arrive/depart from the Wolverhampton lines you can use 4,5,6 or arrive on 3 and shunt via Coton Hill or Crewe Bank to leave on 7 (or 4).

Hm, Interesting, I didn't know that. I've left southbound (towards Telford) from Platform 7 around 5 or 6 times, Twice on Avanti (Virgin) 221s and the rest on TfW (ATW) units. As with the brackets, All of these were pre-current franchises, with the last time I can recall I left southbound from 7 was on the last ever Wolverhampton-bound ATW service in October 2018, Hence why I assumed it was a semi-regularity. I'm not a regular user of Shrewsbury (anymore), So I guess these must have just been one-off irregularities.

 

[TrainTrackJack]

I noticed today that it was instead operated by a pair of 172/0s, something that has not happened before in my memory.

Happened many times before. Went a whole week in May with no 170s.

I don't think that any 172s are permitted on the Shrewsbury route either, despite having it on the in-carriage maps (correct me if I'm wrong)

Shrewsbury crews don’t sign them as far as I’m aware.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

Platform 4C at BHM is 110m, So now having calculated it, could fit 5 carriages, hence why I said that it'd likely require the use of a different platform (which a number of Shrewsbury services do anyway), guestimating at 6 carriages based on eyeballing it. Whether or not 5 carriages would be cleared for service into 4C is another story, not my area of expertise, although based on measurements, it could do so, and would be required to do so once the 5 car 730s enter service (as LNWR services to Crewe & Liverpool often use 4C).

What is the length of the 196s? The 4-car 350 is pushing max length that 4c can fit, driving cab is on crosshatched area so unless it's within about 2m more then they will not be used for 5 car sets. Which isn't an issue given they are 2&4 car sets anyway aren't they?

Also, it's only the Shrewsbury and Crewe via Stoke that really use that platform, and occasionally Rugeley TV. Not so long ago a LIV-BHM was wrongly signalled into 4c which did cause a bit of an issue with it being an 8-car

Be interesting to see where the 5-car 730s actually end up as you'd think they'd use them on the LIV and possibly EUS services, but as they are replacing the 350/2 which work all routes, who knows at this point.

 

[MaidaVale]

What is the length of the 196s? The 4-car 350 is pushing max length that 4c can fit, driving cab is on crosshatched area so unless it's within about 2m more then they will not be used for 5 car sets. Which isn't an issue given they are 2&4 car sets anyway aren't they?

Also, it's only the Shrewsbury and Crewe via Stoke that really use that platform, and occasionally Rugeley TV. Not so long ago a LIV-BHM was wrongly signalled into 4c which did cause a bit of an issue with it being an 8-car

Be interesting to see where the 5-car 730s actually end up as you'd think they'd use them on the LIV and possibly EUS services, but as they are replacing the 350/2 which work all routes, who knows at this point.

From what I could find, 197s are measured at 22m per carriage, which would only just fit onto 4C in a 5 car, Hence why I said it'd be possible but probably not officially signed or allowed into 4C as 5 coach.

Lime Street services used to use 4C quite a bit as 4 car sets, Although yeah in recent times, You mostly just see the Crewe and Wolverhampton locals.

A lot of WMRs overcrowding issues could probably be solved by TfW increasing carriages when they get their 197s, Although with their current reputation for putting inadequate capacity on services, I wouldn't get your hopes up. TfW do rarely operate 6 carriages on Birmingham International services, But it's not very often at all currently, but does show its possible. I've been on an 8 car TfW service (158+158+150+158) on a service from Wolverhampton to Telford Central previously, Although it was during some major disruption, So was most likely just a move to get an otherwise stranded set left at Birmingham back into TfW territory.

 

[newtownmgr]

Worcester services could cope with 8 carriages, and Hereford would do fine with the exception of Ledbury and Colwall, which already receive 9 coach 800s so I don’t think it’s much of an issue. Whether or not they’d be cleared for the route though is a different matter.

University,Bromsgrove,Droitwich & Worcester F st will only accommodate 6 coaches. So no they couldn’t cope with 8 coaches & there would not be the need for 8. Most trains will be 4 with the rare 6 coach formation on both Hereford & Shrewsbury services if needed.

 

[172007]

University,Bromsgrove,Droitwich & Worcester F st will only accommodate 6 coaches. So no they couldn’t cope with 8 coaches & there would not be the need for 8. Most trains will be 4 with the rare 6 coach formation on both Hereford & Shrewsbury services if needed.

As long as the start and final station accommodates the full length of the train then (and arguably that's open open to debate) then all other stations can ve operated with SDO on paper. In practical terms then this might be an interesting experiment.

 

[Class172]

As long as the start and final station accommodates the full length of the train then (and arguably that's open open to debate) then all other stations can ve operated with SDO on paper. In practical terms then this might be an interesting experiment.

Given all four of the aforementioned stations are quite busy (all exceed half a million passenger entry/exits pear annum), and we’re considering two extra carriages beyond platform length, I think it’s reasonable to assume such an experiment would not go at all well.

 

[craigybagel]

Shrewsbury crews don’t sign them as far as I’m aware.

Correct, 170 only at Shrewsbury.

From what I could find, 197s are measured at 22m per carriage, which would only just fit onto 4C in a 5 car, Hence why I said it'd be possible but probably not officially signed or allowed into 4C as 5 coach.

Lime Street services used to use 4C quite a bit as 4 car sets, Although yeah in recent times, You mostly just see the Crewe and Wolverhampton locals.

A lot of WMRs overcrowding issues could probably be solved by TfW increasing carriages when they get their 197s, Although with their current reputation for putting inadequate capacity on services, I wouldn't get your hopes up. TfW do rarely operate 6 carriages on Birmingham International services, But it's not very often at all currently, but does show its possible. I've been on an 8 car TfW service (158+158+150+158) on a service from Wolverhampton to Telford Central previously, Although it was during some major disruption, So was most likely just a move to get an otherwise stranded set left at Birmingham back into TfW territory.

Pretty sure the 196s are 24m - certainly the 195s and 197s are, and it would explain why the platform's at Albrighton are being extended despite the fact that they already (just) fit a 4 car 170.

TfW would operate more 6 car services if they could, but they don't have the rolling stock. That should improve when all the 197s are in service.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

Correct, 170 only at Shrewsbury.

Pretty sure the 196s are 24m - certainly the 195s and 197s are, and it would explain why the platform's at Albrighton are being exchanged despite the fact that they already (just) fit a 4 car 170.

TfW would operate more 6 car services if they could, but they don't have the rolling stock. That should improve when all the 197s are in service.

I guess it depends where the measurements are taken, could be 22m for cab ends, but 24m needed when coupled which would make it too long for the 4c situation.

Given all four of the aforementioned stations are quite busy (all exceed half a million passenger entry/exits pear annum), and we’re considering two extra carriages beyond platform length, I think it’s reasonable to assume such an experiment would not go at all well.

Given that 8-car 350s stop at Galton Bridge and Winsford mostly successfully, SDO could easily be worked by any competent guard. Communication and being proactive removes almost all risk.

 

[Wyrleybart]

Given that 8-car 350s stop at Galton Bridge and Winsford mostly successfully, SDO could easily be worked by any competent guard. Communication and being proactive removes almost all risk.

Provided the TOC has an agreement to use SDO. ISTR a TOC trying to get SDO implemented but giving up because the union and council would not agree it at all.

 

[172007]

Given all four of the aforementioned stations are quite busy (all exceed half a million passenger entry/exits pear annum), and we’re considering two extra carriages beyond platform length, I think it’s reasonable to assume such an experiment would not go at all well.

The 196's displays on the outside of the carriage the vehicle number. Now a wild guess, the system will do the next station only x carriages are opening you are in carriage y routine then on the basis the largest amount of passengers will always be the New Street end and then empty there is no reason that that system wouldn't work. Yes regular commuters would get used to it quickly and with the much wider gangways making it more attractive to move through the train carriage to carriage.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

Provided the TOC has an agreement to use SDO. ISTR a TOC trying to get SDO implemented but giving up because the union and council would not agree it at all.

WMT currently has both SDO and UDS in operation. Risk assessments would need to be done on stations that don't currently have them, similar to how Tipton and Coseley now are UDS stations.

The unions would not stop the introduction of SDO/UDS. They would request adequate notice and (re)training for all train crew who sign those routes though. Or should I say, I cannot see why WMT would have issues adding SDO/UDS to stations

 

[hwl]

From what I could find, 197s are measured at 22m per carriage, which would only just fit onto 4C in a 5 car, Hence why I said it'd be possible but probably not officially signed or allowed into 4C as 5 coach.

350s are 81.36m

196: End vehicles 24.03m and intermediate vehicles 23.35m
So 4car =94.76m so +13.4m longer than 350
or 2x2car = 96.12m so +14.76m longer than 350

 

[GWVillager]

I've seen a pair of 172/0s on the Hereford service previously, but only once that I can recall. I don't think there is enough 172s (of any variation) to completely substitute the 170 diagrams and run services to a decent standard capacity on the Snow Hill Lines, so I find it unlikely. I don't think that any 172s are permitted on the Shrewsbury route either, despite having it on the in-carriage maps (correct me if I'm wrong), So the Hereford/Worcester lines would most likely keep at least some 170 diagrams until the 196s are introduced on Shrewsbury via Telford runs, and the 170s are completely released of their duties.

I meant that particular working has never been 172/0s as far as I know. They've appeared many times on other diagrams.

University,Bromsgrove,Droitwich & Worcester F st will only accommodate 6 coaches. So no they couldn’t cope with 8 coaches & there would not be the need for 8. Most trains will be 4 with the rare 6 coach formation on both Hereford & Shrewsbury services if needed.

Really? I've seen full 9 coach 800s fit into Forgate St (I think)

 

[172007]

I meant that particular working has never been 172/0s as far as I know. They've appeared many times on other diagrams.

Really? I've seen full 9 coach 800s fit into Forgate St (I think)

9 coach 80x are SDO. Only 6 are accommodated.

 

[tomuk]

196101 and 196102 were in Abbey Foregate Sidings in Shrewsbury today.

 

[Undiscovered]

Hm, Interesting, I didn't know that. I've left southbound (towards Telford) from Platform 7 around 5 or 6 times, Twice on Avanti (Virgin) 221s and the rest on TfW (ATW) units. As with the brackets, All of these were pre-current franchises, with the last time I can recall I left southbound from 7 was on the last ever Wolverhampton-bound ATW service in October 2018, Hence why I assumed it was a semi-regularity. I'm not a regular user of Shrewsbury (anymore), So I guess these must have just been one-off irregularities.

The Virgin service used to arrive onto P4, disembark and then go ECS to Coton Hill. It would sit there then for the required time and then be brought into P7 for departure towards Wellington.

Avanti now prefer just to arrive into P5 and go straight back out.

196101 and 196102 were in Abbey Foregate Sidings in Shrewsbury today.

They have been and will remain there for the next few days.

 

[newtownmgr]

I meant that particular working has never been 172/0s as far as I know. They've appeared many times on other diagrams.

Really? I've seen full 9 coach 800s fit into Forgate St (I think)

No they don’t fit at Foregate St. only 6 coaches.

 

[GWVillager]

9 coach 80x are SDO. Only 6 are accommodated.

I didn't know that, thank you

 

[warwickshire]

5Q67 1405 VSTP Tyseley L.M.D to Long Marston saw 37601 take 196005 196112 with the Rail Operations Group barrier vehicles for support to Long Marston this afternoon. So 196005 196112 now at Long Marston.
8 late through the centre road around platform 10 at Birmingham New Street.
37601 full on volume erupted on departure bringing for once proper surround sound to the station.

 

[Rhydgaled]

From what I could find, 197s are measured at 22m per carriage, which would only just fit onto 4C in a 5 car, Hence why I said it'd be possible but probably not officially signed or allowed into 4C as 5 coach.

I guess it depends where the measurements are taken, could be 22m for cab ends, but 24m needed when coupled which would make it too long for the 4c situation.

I think you're right SCDR_WMR - the scale drawings of the 197s show 23576mm for driving vehicles and 22450mmm for the intermediate coaches but this excludes the couplings/gangways within the unit (the cab-end gangway seems to be included).

196: End vehicles 24.03m and intermediate vehicles 23.35m

Those figures seem to ring a bell; think the 197s are the same. Certainly I can recall reading somewhere that the intermediate vehicles are shorter than the driving cars on the 197s.

TfW increasing carriages when they get their 197s, Although with their current reputation for putting inadequate capacity on services, I wouldn't get your hopes up.

The only way I can see TfW increasing booked formations to Birmingham above 4 coaches on a majority of services is if they find a way to include non-ETCS units in the formation. If they were to change their plans and keep the 158s at Machynlleth then the three 158s with booked work in south Wales could potentially be brought north to strenthen the Cambrian fleet, otherwise the planned ETCS-fitted class 197 fleet (21 units) is no larger than that effectively available for Cambrian services currently.

 

[craigybagel]

The only way I can see TfW increasing booked formations to Birmingham above 4 coaches on a majority of services is if they find a way to include non-ETCS units in the formation. If they were to change their plans and keep the 158s at Machynlleth then the three 158s with booked work in south Wales could potentially be brought north to strenthen the Cambrian fleet, otherwise the planned ETCS-fitted class 197 fleet (21 units) is no larger than that effectively available for Cambrian services currently.

Once again - wait and see, and don't make assumptions based on the current timetable.

 

[GWVillager]

I think you're right SCDR_WMR - the scale drawings of the 197s show 23576mm for driving vehicles and 22450mmm for the intermediate coaches but this excludes the couplings/gangways within the unit (the cab-end gangway seems to be included).

Those figures seem to ring a bell; think the 197s are the same. Certainly I can recall reading somewhere that the intermediate vehicles are shorter than the driving cars on the 197s.

The only way I can see TfW increasing booked formations to Birmingham above 4 coaches on a majority of services is if they find a way to include non-ETCS units in the formation. If they were to change their plans and keep the 158s at Machynlleth then the three 158s with booked work in south Wales could potentially be brought north to strenthen the Cambrian fleet, otherwise the planned ETCS-fitted class 197 fleet (21 units) is no larger than that effectively available for Cambrian services currently.

I can’t imagine them considering all the coupling and so on worth it.

 

[tomuk]

If they were to change their plans and keep the 158s at Machynlleth

The 197s are on the way TfW aren't keeping any 158s or 175s despite how many times you suggest it.

 

[Neptune]

The 197s are on the way TfW aren't keeping any 158s or 175s despite how many times you suggest it.

Yes it’s worryingly a possibility that any thread loosely connected is game for an anti-197 posting. Another ‘unwatch’ if it continues which is a shame as I’m interested in news on the 196’s.