WMR Class 196 Build and Implementation

[Class172]

Interesting you should say that as I used to see 2x2-170s dominate Herefords with 3-170 on Shrewsbury most days when I was in B’ham

Pre-pandemic at least, Hereford services on the whole were predominantly either 2 or 3 carriages long, with a few 4/5-car sets thrown in (often sporting a 153 as the additional carriage).

As far as I’m aware, the 196s for EWR will be a separate order, they’re not coming out of WMR’s fleet. 6 car formations might be useful for some busy services, but platform lengths at Colwall and Ledbury could be an issue

Happy to be corrected of course but I believed it was deemed there’d be spare capacity in the 196 fleet (due to covid) to free up some 2-car units from WMR for EWR. I believe I read this in a Modern Railways article somewhere.

I’ll make it clear I don’t believe this would be a good idea given how well leisure travel appears to have rebounded on the line.

 

[GWVillager]

Pre-pandemic at least, Hereford services on the whole were predominantly either 2 or 3 carriages long, with a few 4/5-car sets thrown in (often sporting a 153 as the additional carriage).

Happy to be corrected of course but I believed it was deemed there’d be spare capacity in the 196 fleet (due to covid) to free up some 2-car units from WMR for EWR. I believe I read this in a Modern Railways article somewhere.

I’ll make it clear I don’t believe this would be a good idea given how well leisure travel appears to have rebounded on the line.

Yes I agree it wouldn’t be a great idea. My source was a Today’s Railways UK article saying “196 or similar DMUs to be ordered”- which heavily implies new sets. This ambiguity (I don’t know which is correct) is quite worrying! I can certainly see 2 coach sets becoming overcrowded quite quickly on EWR anyway. However that probably belongs in a different thread.

 

[QSK19]

Yes I agree it wouldn’t be a great idea. My source was a Today’s Railways UK article saying “196 or similar DMUs to be ordered”- which heavily implies new sets.

It’s not a good idea also because it just seems very at odds with the increasingly ill-feeling towards ordering more DMUs.

In the Class 175 future speculation thread, I’ve suggested a few of those running EWR services to avoid needing to order further DMUs; but any views on that should be posted there (https://railforums.co.uk/threads/class-175-future-speculation.218095/page-16#post-5698783), not here.

 

[GWVillager]

I was just looking at some old posts from this thread, has the armrest question been solved? I certainly hope they have them.

 

[newtownmgr]

I was most certainly under the impression that they were to be 'borrowed' from WMTs fleet until some new bimodes could be ordered.

Yes they are. Think 6 2 car sets on loan

 

[172007]

Yes they are. Think 6 2 car sets on loan

So if the 172/1's stay then it's only 2x2 car that the Toc is down by then.

 

[GWVillager]

So if the 172/1's stay then it's only 2x2 car that the Toc is down by then.

Well yes but a pair of 196s is probably more useful than the 172/1s

 

[newtownmgr]

So if the 172/1's stay then it's only 2x2 car that the Toc is down by then.

The /1’s are staying & No, we are not down any vehicles. If you count what we had at the start of the franchise & what we will have once the 196’s are in service & the 170’s have left you will find even with 6 sets going on loan to EWR we will have more vehicles. Enough to cover a full pre Covid service & the New Camp Hill services, without any loss in capacity.

 

[Mordac]

The /1’s are staying & No, we are not down any vehicles. If you count what we had at the start of the franchise & what we will have once the 196’s are in service & the 170’s have left you will find even with 6 sets going on loan to EWR we will have more vehicles. Enough to cover a full pre Covid service & the New Camp Hill services, without any loss in capacity.

Does that mean the /1s are going to get painted/refurbished into WMT standards anytime soon?

 

[GWVillager]

Does that mean the /1s are going to get painted/refurbished into WMT standards anytime soon?

I hope so, they’re certainly looking scruffy. But without the 196s they’ll probably all be in use.

 

[172007]

Does that mean the /1s are going to get painted/refurbished into WMT standards anytime soon?

Yes, and have the DCO equipment installed which will mean that the entire WMT fleet will be DCO ready to go.

 

[DavidGrain]

Yes, and have the DCO equipment installed which will mean that the entire WMT fleet will be DCO ready to go.

Would the ex Chiltern trains not have had DCO?

 

[craigybagel]

Would the ex Chiltern trains not have had DCO?

They were fitted for DOO using Platform monitors and mirrors. The original WMR 172 fleet have been fitted with cameras and a monitor inside the cab, so that they can run DOO without relying on Platform infrastructure.

 

[43102EMR]

Does that mean the /1s are going to get painted/refurbished into WMT standards anytime soon?

Yes - Angel Trains confirmed on Linkedin there are plans to bring them up to the same standards as the rest of the WMR fleet.

 

[MaidaVale]

I was just looking at some old posts from this thread, has the armrest question been solved? I certainly hope they have them.

The WMR 196s don't have armrests fitted, The seats are similar/identical to those on the GreaterAnglia 745s minus the armrests.

On a slightly different note, I took a pair of 170s between Hereford and Birmingham on Saturday, and (especially on the return) 4 coach trains are consistently running full. Considering the 196s will either be 4 coaches or a pair of 2 car sets, it’s a bit concerning. Is there a possibility of additional centre cars to allow for 5 coach operation?

Despite the higher overall capacity of the 196s over the 170s, I still think it was a little short-sighted of WMR to order 4 car sets as opposed to 5 cars. I'm not a user of the Hereford/Worcester services, Although having used the Telford/Shrewsbury services extensively, any time other than 9am-3pm, 4 car sets are often left with most seats taken, with the majority of evening/night services (particularly towards Shrewsbury from New Street) being completely rammed to breaking point, particularly on Fridays and Saturdays.

I think running them as 6 car (4+2) or 8 car (4+4) would be really beneficial for certain services, although I don't think they'd be clear for usage, and I think the only stations along the Shrewsbury line that could fit an 8 car unit are; Birmingham New Street*, Sandwell & Dudley, Wolverhampton, Telford Central, Wellington** and Shrewsbury, with Cosford possibly being able to handle 6 cars. As WMR services stop at most stations along the route (the ones not listed can only fit 4***), likelihood is that they wouldn't be able to run in longer formations, although TfW could if they wanted to (they certainly have the demand for it) as they only stop at principal stations.

(* Birmingham New Street Platform 4C could likely only handle 6 cars at most, so any 8 car services would have to use a different platform)

(** Wellington could comfortably fit 8 cars or more in the Westbound direction, Although the Eastbound platform is shorter, only just fitting 7/8 cars of a 10 coach 221. Wellington westbound and both directions on the rest of the stations on the list could easily fit 10/12 coaches)

(*** Bilbrook and Oakengates can currently only fit 3 coaches, although are in the process of being extended to handle 4)

 

[craigybagel]

The WMR 196s don't have armrests fitted, The seats are similar/identical to those on the GreaterAnglia 745s minus the armrests.



Despite the higher overall capacity of the 196s over the 170s, I still think it was a little short-sighted of WMR to order 4 car sets as opposed to 5 cars. I'm not a user of the Hereford/Worcester services, Although having used the Telford/Shrewsbury services extensively, any time other than 9am-3pm, 4 car sets are often left with most seats taken, with the majority of evening/night services (particularly towards Shrewsbury from New Street) being completely rammed to breaking point, particularly on Fridays and Saturdays.

I think running them as 6 car (4+2) or 8 car (4+4) would be really beneficial for certain services, although I don't think they'd be clear for usage, and I think the only stations along the Shrewsbury line that could fit an 8 car unit are; Birmingham New Street*, Sandwell & Dudley, Wolverhampton, Telford Central, Wellington** and Shrewsbury, with Cosford possibly being able to handle 6 cars. As WMR services stop at most stations along the route (the ones not listed can only fit 4***), likelihood is that they wouldn't be able to run in longer formations, although TfW could if they wanted to (they certainly have the demand for it) as they only stop at principal stations.

(* Birmingham New Street Platform 4C could likely only handle 6 cars at most, so any 8 car services would have to use a different platform)

(** Wellington could comfortably fit 8 cars or more in the Westbound direction, Although the Eastbound platform is shorter, only just fitting 7/8 cars of a 10 coach 221. Wellington westbound and both directions on the rest of the stations on the list could easily fit 10/12 coaches)

(*** Bilbrook and Oakengates can currently only fit 3 coaches, although are in the process of being extended to handle 4)

Wellington Up direction (eastbound) only just takes 6 cars, there's very little leeway. Also more importantly the bay platforms at Shrewsbury are only 5 cars long - anything longer than that and WMR could only use platform 4 unless they shunted between arrival and departure. That isn't going to happen.

Bear in mind it's still going to produce a larger fleet than existed before Covid, and that it wasn't that long before Covid that the Shrewsbury line went up to a half hourly service all day.

 

[newtownmgr]

Would the ex Chiltern trains not have had DCO?

No. They were always worked with a guard i believe. Nothing needed modifying regarding the door controls when they came over unlike the 172/0’s

 

[LowLevel]

No. They were always worked with a guard i believe. Nothing needed modifying regarding the door controls when they came over unlike the 172/0’s

I believe they were worked DOO, but they use platform based equipment on Chiltern so there's no practical difference to the set up for a guard operated or DOO train, just which controls are being used at the time - in the case of Chiltern with the odd exception like the West Ealing train and the loco hauled sets guards get off at Banbury going south and the driver just operates the doors instead.

Same as on Greater Anglia with their 170s which spent 95% of their time being guard worked but had a handful of DOO-P workings between Ipswich and Colchester.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

Wellington Up direction (eastbound) only just takes 6 cars, there's very little leeway. Also more importantly the bay platforms at Shrewsbury are only 5 cars long - anything longer than that and WMR could only use platform 4 unless they shunted between arrival and departure. That isn't going to happen.

Bear in mind it's still going to produce a larger fleet than existed before Covid, and that it wasn't that long before Covid that the Shrewsbury line went up to a half hourly service all day.

He also things New St 4c could take 6 cars, so I think he may just be plucking numbers out of the sky

 

[172007]

No. They were always worked with a guard i believe. Nothing needed modifying regarding the door controls when they came over unlike the 172/0’s

South of Banbury all Chilton's are DOO with platform equipment except the LHCS. (Probably why they want the LHCS gone after the games)

 

[craigybagel]

He also things New St 4c could take 6 cars, so I think he may just be plucking numbers out of the sky

Good point. Could you imagine the delay minutes if someone tried that?

South of Banbury all Chilton's are DOO with platform equipment except the LHCS. (Probably why they want the LHCS gone after the games)

Wasn't there some kind of length restriction there as well, anything over a certain number of cars required a guard?

 

[Mordac]

Yes - Angel Trains confirmed on Linkedin there are plans to bring them up to the same standards as the rest of the WMR fleet.

Good to hear, they look very sad next to the WMT coloured ones, maybe because their livery is so drab to begin with.

 

[DavidGrain]

South of Banbury all Chilton's are DOO with platform equipment except the LHCS. (Probably why they want the LHCS gone after the games)

The loco hauled trains were a legacy from the (to me) late lamented Wrexham and Shropshire service. They tried to justify them with a 'business class' in one coach.

 

[Energy]

Wasn't there some kind of length restriction there as well, anything over a certain number of cars required a guard?

I think its 7 cars, 9 cars was the plan at some point though I'm not sure if it went ahead.

 

[newtownmgr]

South of Banbury all Chilton's are DOO with platform equipment except the LHCS. (Probably why they want the LHCS gone after the games)
Loco hauled going due to noise & pollution complaints at Marylebone. Nothing to do with DOO. The 172/1’s were setup to be worked by a Driver & Guard. As i said no mods carried out to the door controls when we received them.

 

[Energy]

The loco hauled trains were a legacy from the (to me) late lamented Wrexham and Shropshire service. They tried to justify them with a 'business class' in one coach.

W&S apparently originally wanted to use 170s or 158s though they weren't available.

 

[172007]

Good point. Could you imagine the delay minutes if someone tried that?

Wasn't there some kind of length restriction there as well, anything over a certain number of cars required a guard?

Not as far as I know but then going for a pascom with some of their 2 cars lashed together would take a bit of time.

South of Banbury all Chilton's are DOO with platform equipment except the LHCS. (Probably why they want the LHCS gone after the games)
Loco hauled going due to noise & pollution complaints at Marylebone. Nothing to do with DOO. The 172/1’s were setup to be worked by a Driver & Guard. As i said no mods carried out to the door controls when we received them.

Think the position noise is a convenient excuse personally. Westminster council cam squeel all they like about it bit suspect they wouldn't get anywhere in court tbh.

 

[Clarence Yard]

They would - there is precedent for Councils winning noise complaints in Court against the railway. They have been after the railway regarding noise for years and the introduction of the cl.68 sent the number of complaints through the roof.

The Minister had given the Leader of Westminster Council his personal assurance that the 68’s will be withdrawn straight after the Commonwealth games and has instructed that they be gone. Trouble is the DfT expected Chiltern to be able to source replacement units and that, thanks to delays elsewhere, is an impossibility so Chiltern have asked the DfT to rescind the instruction.

 

[GWVillager]

The WMR 196s don't have armrests fitted, The seats are similar/identical to those on the GreaterAnglia 745s minus the armrests.



Despite the higher overall capacity of the 196s over the 170s, I still think it was a little short-sighted of WMR to order 4 car sets as opposed to 5 cars. I'm not a user of the Hereford/Worcester services, Although having used the Telford/Shrewsbury services extensively, any time other than 9am-3pm, 4 car sets are often left with most seats taken, with the majority of evening/night services (particularly towards Shrewsbury from New Street) being completely rammed to breaking point, particularly on Fridays and Saturdays.

I think running them as 6 car (4+2) or 8 car (4+4) would be really beneficial for certain services, although I don't think they'd be clear for usage, and I think the only stations along the Shrewsbury line that could fit an 8 car unit are; Birmingham New Street*, Sandwell & Dudley, Wolverhampton, Telford Central, Wellington** and Shrewsbury, with Cosford possibly being able to handle 6 cars. As WMR services stop at most stations along the route (the ones not listed can only fit 4***), likelihood is that they wouldn't be able to run in longer formations, although TfW could if they wanted to (they certainly have the demand for it) as they only stop at principal stations.

(* Birmingham New Street Platform 4C could likely only handle 6 cars at most, so any 8 car services would have to use a different platform)

(** Wellington could comfortably fit 8 cars or more in the Westbound direction, Although the Eastbound platform is shorter, only just fitting 7/8 cars of a 10 coach 221. Wellington westbound and both directions on the rest of the stations on the list could easily fit 10/12 coaches)

(*** Bilbrook and Oakengates can currently only fit 3 coaches, although are in the process of being extended to handle 4)

Worcester services could cope with 8 carriages, and Hereford would do fine with the exception of Ledbury and Colwall, which already receive 9 coach 800s so I don’t think it’s much of an issue. Whether or not they’d be cleared for the route though is a different matter.

 

[craigybagel]

They would - there is precedent for Councils winning noise complaints in Court against the railway. They have been after the railway regarding noise for years and the introduction of the cl.68 sent the number of complaints through the roof.

The Minister had given the Leader of Westminster Council his personal assurance that the 68’s will be withdrawn straight after the Commonwealth games and has instructed that they be gone. Trouble is the DfT expected Chiltern to be able to source replacement units and that, thanks to delays elsewhere, is an impossibility so Chiltern have asked the DfT to rescind the instruction.

Once again showing how out of touch the Minister is with what's actually happening on the railway....