WMR Class 196 Build and Implementation

[Jacob Porrett]

196 111 is leaving Donnington Rail Freight Terminal today going to Tyseley LMD with 37510 and 37611. (17/3/22)

 

[SCDR_WMR]

Training delayed until May now unfortunately.
Shrewsbury>New St>Worcester

 

[Jacob Porrett]

Training delayed until May now unfortunately.
Shrewsbury>New St>Worcester

Why is that?

 

[SCDR_WMR]

Why is that?

No idea, internal memo yesterday and RMT newsletter today confirmed it. Does seem odd so late in the day, presumably not everyone wanted to do it as RDW and maybe lack of units still

 

[Jacob Porrett]

No idea, internal memo yesterday and RMT newsletter today confirmed it. Does seem odd so late in the day, presumably not everyone wanted to do it as RDW and maybe lack of units still

Lack of units...that's crazy considering Tyseley is full of 196s...

 

[12guard4]

Lack of units...that's crazy considering Tyseley is full of 196s...

All broken and not fit for purpose.

 

[DannyMich2018]

Lack of units...that's crazy considering Tyseley is full of 196s...

First delivery to Tyseley was nearly two years ago. Yes we've had Covid but it's very poor that entry into service seems no closer. The Northern 195s didn't take this long to go into service and they are a bigger fleet (58 units) which are used on more routes than the 196s will be on and never had to be hauled to and from storage/Tyseley.

 

[Jacob Porrett]

All broken and not fit for purpose.

Interesting

First delivery to Tyseley was nearly two years ago. Yes we've had Covid but it's very poor that entry into service seems no closer. The Northern 195s didn't take this long to go into service and they are a bigger fleet (58 units) which are used on more routes than the 196s will be on and never had to be hauled to and from storage/Tyseley.

Guess we just have to be patient now really. Not much we can do. They (196s) will enter service when they enter service.

 

[Zontar]

Is there much difference between the 196 and the 197s?

197s are due in service in may, but only a few units kicking about

 

[Jacob Porrett]

Is there much difference between the 196 and the 197s?

197s are due in service in may, but only a few units kicking about

They look very similar on the outside and probably look similar on the inside as well. Some have ECS equipment for the Cambrian line and others won't. 197s are two and three car compared to 196 which are two and four car.

 

[Zontar]

They look very similar on the outside and probably look similar on the inside as well. Some have ECS equipment for the Cambrian line and others won't. 197s are two and three car compared to 196 which are two and four car.

Doesn't seem to warrant a different class number to me, but I'm sure they have the reasons.

 

[Jacob Porrett]

Doesn't seem to warrant a different class number to me, but I'm sure they have the reasons.

Maybe different engines but there again they are probably the same considering they are all made in the same factory.

 

[Pacerman99]

Is there much difference between the 196 and the 197s?

197s are due in service in may, but only a few units kicking about

The 197s are the standard 'Civity' product (basically 195s with gangways). The 196s are similar but have a revised window layout designed to align with the seats better. The interior is also completely different.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

First delivery to Tyseley was nearly two years ago. Yes we've had Covid but it's very poor that entry into service seems no closer. The Northern 195s didn't take this long to go into service and they are a bigger fleet (58 units) which are used on more routes than the 196s will be on and never had to be hauled to and from storage/Tyseley.

It is very poor, initial units had awful gearboxes and struggled with fault-free running. As I'm not on those routes now I don't really know the reason why there's a new pushback but CAF hardly have a good reputation for quality and timely delivery. This is why I don't think it's fleet size that's been an issue as there are plenty units around waiting for door panels to be retrofitted

 

[craigybagel]

They look very similar on the outside and probably look similar on the inside as well. Some have ECS equipment for the Cambrian line and others won't. 197s are two and three car compared to 196 which are two and four car.

Doesn't seem to warrant a different class number to me, but I'm sure they have the reasons.

Slightly different cabs (even before you take ERTMS into consideration), completely different interior layouts, different window layouts, also as built 197s were designed for 2 person operation whereas on the 196s guards door controls have been an afterthought.
Not as similar as people might expect.

 

[172007]

First delivery to Tyseley was nearly two years ago. Yes we've had Covid but it's very poor that entry into service seems no closer. The Northern 195s didn't take this long to go into service and they are a bigger fleet (58 units) which are used on more routes than the 196s will be on and never had to be hauled to and from storage/Tyseley.

Some

It is very poor, initial units had awful gearboxes and struggled with fault-free running. As I'm not on those routes now I don't really know the reason why there's a new pushback but CAF hardly have a good reputation for quality and timely delivery. This is why I don't think it's fleet size that's been an issue as there are plenty units around waiting for door panels to be retrofitted

I did hear an internal quote 2nd hand from either the company or Aslef but it was basically we won't accept them until they are 100% ready as you wouldn't accept a brand new car and expect to take back to the garage every week for Mods and we don't see the difference between a train and a car in that regards. Something also along with a line that Northern Rail may have rushed their introduction or not have the same acceptance philosophy.

Slightly different cabs (even before you take ERTMS into consideration), completely different interior layouts, different window layouts, also as built 197s were designed for 2 person operation whereas on the 196s guards door controls have been an afterthought.
Not as similar as people might expect.

196 guard controls where not an after thought, they have been provided due to a change in circumstances. The 196 as well as the 172's except 172/1's all have full DOO/ DCO capability. You don't bring a new fleet in and convert a legacy fleet unless your intentions are for driver realise and close.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

Some

I did hear an internal quote 2nd hand from either the company or Aslef but it was basically we won't accept them until they are 100% ready as you wouldn't accept a brand new car and expect to take back to the garage every week for Mods and we don't see the difference between a train and a car in that regards. Something also along with a line that Northern Rail may have rushed their introduction or not have the same acceptance philosophy.


196 guard controls where not an after thought, they have been provided due to a change in circumstances. The 196 as well as the 172's except 172/1's all have full DOO/ DCO capability. You don't bring a new fleet in and convert a legacy fleet unless your intentions are for driver realise and close.

Door controls were not an afterthought per say, DCO capabilities were a requirement from the DfT on awarding the franchise to Abellio hence why body cams were fitted to 172s during their refresh.

However, it has been agreed on multiple occasions now that panels would be retrofitted to both 196 & 730 stock so it was clear from the outset that the original plan would have been DCO if the TOC or DfT could have forced it through. So you could argue that it is therefore an afterthought as they weren't originally requested.

Yes, I believe there is truth to that line from ASLEF. Certainly given how poor the initial units were when doing their miles on the North Warwick, and knowing some of the bods who have been involved from a driver's level, I would expect that to be the case.

 

[craigybagel]

Some

I did hear an internal quote 2nd hand from either the company or Aslef but it was basically we won't accept them until they are 100% ready as you wouldn't accept a brand new car and expect to take back to the garage every week for Mods and we don't see the difference between a train and a car in that regards. Something also along with a line that Northern Rail may have rushed their introduction or not have the same acceptance philosophy.


196 guard controls where not an after thought, they have been provided due to a change in circumstances. The 196 as well as the 172's except 172/1's all have full DOO/ DCO capability. You don't bring a new fleet in and convert a legacy fleet unless your intentions are for driver realise and close.

Door controls were not an afterthought per say, DCO capabilities were a requirement from the DfT on awarding the franchise to Abellio hence why body cams were fitted to 172s during their refresh.

However, it has been agreed on multiple occasions now that panels would be retrofitted to both 196 & 730 stock so it was clear from the outset that the original plan would have been DCO if the TOC or DfT could have forced it through. So you could argue that it is therefore an afterthought as they weren't originally requested.

Indeed I phrased it badly - my point was that the 196s weren't originally built with guards panels as the plan was for DCO. The 197s, whilst also capable of working DCO as with all new stock built these days, were designed to be worked DGO and guards panels were always part of the design.

 

[newtownmgr]

All broken and not fit for purpose

What’s your evidence for this, or is it just an assumption.

 

[12guard4]

What’s your evidence for this, or is it just an assumption.

That they've all been sat at Tyseley and not in service yet is pretty much all the evidence you need to tell you they still have some issues.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

That they've all been sat at Tyseley and not in service yet is pretty much all the evidence you need to tell you they still have some issues.

It really isn't, given that the training plan was only signed off a few weeks ago. That and the obvious missing door controls.

 

[172007]

That they've all been sat at Tyseley and not in service yet is pretty much all the evidence you need to tell you they still have some issues.

They are having to go to have door panels installed so need enough with this mod plus driver training is dependent on having enough drivers available for training and also run the current service. If you haven't noticed Covid cases are really high at the moment with a rise in staff self isolating means that it's not just down to the rolling stock.

 

[12guard4]

They are having to go to have door panels installed so need enough with this mod plus driver training is dependent on having enough drivers available for training and also run the current service. If you haven't noticed Covid cases are really high at the moment with a rise in staff self isolating means that it's not just down to the rolling stock.

You don't have to self isolate anymore. The training hasn't even started because they can't move units without having to isolate some of system. They're not yet suitable for service and that's not because of a door panel missing.

 

[HST274]

You don't have to self isolate anymore. The training hasn't even started because they can't move units without having to isolate some of system. They're not yet suitable for service and that's not because of a door panel missing.

I believe most people who know they have it are isolating still and most businesses recommending they take time off work if they have it. Therefore that is a legitimate reason, though not the only factor I'm sure.

 

[12guard4]

I believe most people who know they have it are isolating still and most businesses recommending they take time off work if they have it. Therefore that is a legitimate reason, though not the only factor I'm sure.

No I do totally agree with you here, but sickness is not overly high to delay these units at the moment.

 

[172007]

You don't have to self isolate anymore. The training hasn't even started because they can't move units without having to isolate some of system. They're not yet suitable for service and that's not because of a door panel missing.

Self isolation is still there. Just because HMG say you don't doesn't mean your employer does no require it.

 

[newtownmgr]

That they've all been sat at Tyseley and not in service yet is pretty much all the evidence you need to tell you they still have some issues.

Training only recently signed off.
Door control panels only just being fitted.
Release for training instructors & then the rest of the traincrew being sorted at present.

You don't have to self isolate anymore. The training hasn't even started because they can't move units without having to isolate some of system. They're not yet suitable for service and that's not because of a door panel missing.

As your obviously an expert & i assume work for WMT. What systems have to be isolated.

 

[Sprinter107]

You don't have to self isolate anymore. The training hasn't even started because they can't move units without having to isolate some of system. They're not yet suitable for service and that's not because of a door panel missing.

I havent heard of anything being isolated in order to move a 196. What system would this be then ?

 

[172007]

Training only recently signed off.
Door control panels only just being fitted.
Release for training instructors & then the rest of the traincrew being sorted at present.


As your obviously an expert & i assume work for WMT. What systems have to be isolated.

I mentioned covid and mentioned staff off as self isolation for covid still happening rather than saying there are loads of people off sick with covid.

I havent heard of anything being isolated in order to move a 196. What system would this be then ?

None, its covid self isolation that I mentioned still happening then the reply you don't isolate anymore seemingly got into safety systems being isolated my newtownmngr by accident.

 

[12guard4]

I havent heard of anything being isolated in order to move a 196. What system would this be then ?

They had to isolate to get one moving out the shed a few weeks ago. Just an example of how these units are still not ready for service. It's not just a case of waiting on a few door panels which seems to be suggested.