Would changing the UK to Central European Time (plus one hour all year round) reduce our energy consumption enough to help us pay our bills?

[yorkie]

I’ve always been a supporter of staying at GMT+1 (ie. the current time) all year round. I’d say for the majority of people it isn’t daylight savings time in summer, but more like daylight losings time in winter.

Definitely this.

Should be GMT+1 all year round.

From 1969 to 1971, an experiment to British Summer Time took plaace, the clocks went back by two hours for Winter, was very unpopluar, as a boy I would be traveling to school in the morning in complete darkness, in deep winter, daylight hours began around 9 am.

But the reverse happens in the evening!

It was dangerous to travel, we were issued with reflective armbands by the school, and I can recall being very tired for most of the day. Children need natural sleep patterns for health, so do adults, but adults are more tolerant of sleep deprivation than the young.

Is it dangerous to travel in the evening nowadays?

Resist any call for changes to the clocks as the experiment in 1969, it was a truly miserable experience

The current clocks going back is a miserable experience.

....Certainly most people I know tend to moan about GMT and the clocks going back....

That is without doubt the majority view. Those who want to see more darkness in the afternoon and more light in the morning tend to be more vocal but are very much a minority.

Indeed. And those times for Oct 31 show the ridiculousness of changing to GMT at that time of year. The sun rising before 7am but setting shortly after 4.30 ??!!??

Indeed; far more people are out and about at 1630 than 0700 and I don't see how anyone can claim otherwise.

I support returning to GMT all year round such that solar noon is at 12:00 in Greenwich.

I think you are perhaps the only person (other than maybe a handful of people on this forum) who has said that; it must be such a tiny minority view (no surprises there though!)

 

[Bletchleyite]

Of course a better fix for dark mornings and schools would be to make them open 10-4:30 instead of 9-3:30. Kids work better on that schedule anyway, there has been loads of research on it.

 

[Mojo]

Of course a better fix for dark mornings and schools would be to make them open 10-4:30 instead of 9-3:30. Kids work better on that schedule anyway, there has been loads of research on it.

Would definitely be an argument to stick with GMT+1 all year round in that case! I’m all for it!

From 1969 to 1971, an experiment to British Summer Time took plaace, the clocks went back by two hours for Winter, was very unpopluar, as a boy I would be traveling to school in the morning in complete darkness, in deep winter, daylight hours began around 9 am.
It was dangerous to travel, we were issued with reflective armbands by the school, and I can recall being very tired for most of the day. Children need natural sleep patterns for health, so do adults, but adults are more tolerant of sleep deprivation than the young.
Resist any call for changes to the clocks as the experiment in 1969, it was a truly miserable experience

This doesn’t make any sense - if the clocks went back by two hours for winter then you’d have had bright mornings, but it would be dark at 15.30.

All sources I can see at the time show that they simply didn’t change the time for winter, but instead left the time at BST all year round. As part of the experiment there was a reduction in those killed or seriously injured by road traffic by 11.7%.

I recall getting home from school in the dark during December and January; when the roads are much busier & more chaotic, it would be much more logical to travel in the dark mornings than the evenings.

 

[miklcct]

I think you are perhaps the only person (other than maybe a handful of people on this forum) who has said that; it must be such a tiny minority view (no surprises there though!)

12:00 = noon = when the sun is at the highest is one of the first things we learn as a child. It is the basis of clock setting for centuries starting from the era of sundials, and the fact that a solar day varies in length in the year was only known when mechanical clocks were invented so 12:00 became the "mean solar noon" instead, that noon on a particular day may be slightly earlier or later but not too far off from 12:00.

The invention of railways triggered the need to standardise times, so the time of the whole country was standardised to have 12:00 as the mean solar noon at Greenwich, and later the world was divided into 24 time zones that the local mean noon was supposed to be within half an hour around 12:00.

Given the geographic location of the UK, the only sensible time zone is GMT (Greenwich Mean Time, i.e. UTC+0), that is to undo all the mess made after World War I and let Greenwich observe Greenwich Mean Time.

I am stating the above using only science as the reasoning why the UK should be on GMT - it's the time zone which is the closest to putting the clock noon on the real noon.

 

[E27007]

This doesn’t make any sense - if the clocks went back by two hours for winter then you’d have had bright mornings, but it would be dark at 15.30.

You have spotted an error in my thinking, the experiment must have been clocks forward.

 

[uglymonkey]

They did an experiment in the 1970's of
double something or other.Hated it, walking to school in the dark!

 

[E27007]

They did an experiment in the 1970's of
double something or other.Hated it, walking to school in the dark!

Google: Circadian Clock and Melatonin hormone for current information.
The Circadian Clock is measurable as soon as 3 moinths post-birth, in teenagers, their clock and melatonin cycles change leading to delayed sleep and waking up times, teenagers do need to be allowed to sleep into the morning, as a teenager during the BST experiment of 1969 - 71, I had to be dragged out of bed to have breakfast and make ready for journey to school, it was worse than being jet-lagged, from the viewpoint of teenagers, a stupid unthinking experiment, a form of chronic sleep-deprivation, a technique associated with torture.

 

[Busaholic]

Forgive me if I've missed it here, but the clocks used to go back in the U.K. on the last Sunday in September, whereas our nearest European neighbours used the October one. This resulted in special timetables having to be created for the month period between the two dates if you were travelling by train/ferry or hovercraft from London to Paris, for instance. I once travelled on the French changeover day back to London and that was an experience in itself! La difference, by the way, in the changeover dates lasted well into our Common Market days.

 

[nw1]

Forgive me if I've missed it here, but the clocks used to go back in the U.K. on the last Sunday in September, whereas our nearest European neighbours used the October one. This resulted in special timetables having to be created for the month period between the two dates if you were travelling by train/ferry or hovercraft from London to Paris, for instance. I once travelled on the French changeover day back to London and that was an experience in itself! La difference, by the way, in the changeover dates lasted well into our Common Market days.

Before 1961 apparently, though it seemed to be the start of October, not the end of September. Likewise there was no BST until just after mid-April. I really don't understand why, it's utterly, utterly pointless to still be on GMT in mid-April and I can see no benefits of that whatsoever unless you like sunrise at 5am and sunset at 7pm.

I guess people were just used to it then, but if that were tried on now it would be grim indeed.

See: https://www.timeanddate.com/time/zone/uk/london?year=1950

 

[Giugiaro]

We should change the timezone to improve people's comfort, health and productivity.
Our energy needs have increased significantly over the past decades. Lighting has become less relevant in the share of power consumed.
Going home at a different time of the day isn't going to change how much energy we use, on average, per day.

From my experience, it has been more harmful to wake up before sunrise than to leave my workplace after sunset.
I hate it when the sun starts to rise after wake-up time, then DST arrives and sunrise happens again after you wake up for a few more weeks.
Plus, every time DST comes and goes, I go from waking up on my own to waking up earlier than necessary in November, thinking that I'm already late to work, and desperately dealing with the alarm clock in April.

 

[miklcct]

From my experience, it has been more harmful to wake up before sunrise than to leave my workplace after sunset.
I hate it when the sun starts to rise after wake-up time, then DST arrives and sunrise happens again after you wake up for a few more weeks.
Plus, every time DST comes and goes, I go from waking up on my own to waking up earlier than necessary in November, thinking that I'm already late to work, and desperately dealing with the alarm clock in April.

So if you wake up at 7 in winter, don't you wake up at 8 in summer to compensate for the hour lost in the DST time change?

 

[Giugiaro]

No, because, at 08:30, I already have to start my workday 17km away.
Our economy doesn't give a flying flamingo about the circadian rhythm.

 

[E27007]

Our economy doesn't give a flying flamingo about the circadian rhythm.

A highly regarded book, "The Ragged-Trousered Philanthropists" by Robert Tressler, written around 1910 - 14, the central theme about the injustice in our class-based system of employment, Tressler raises the question of rest .
Managers work 9 to 5 and receive 16 hours of rest, the labourers worked 6 to 6, receiving 12 hours rest, the labourers were performing hard physical work, exhausted at the end of the day, Managers do not perform tiring work, unless reading, writing and talking is "physically exhausting". Tressler questions why those who need and deserve the most, receive the least rest.

 

[Bantamzen]

12:00 = noon = when the sun is at the highest is one of the first things we learn as a child. It is the basis of clock setting for centuries starting from the era of sundials, and the fact that a solar day varies in length in the year was only known when mechanical clocks were invented so 12:00 became the "mean solar noon" instead, that noon on a particular day may be slightly earlier or later but not too far off from 12:00.

The invention of railways triggered the need to standardise times, so the time of the whole country was standardised to have 12:00 as the mean solar noon at Greenwich, and later the world was divided into 24 time zones that the local mean noon was supposed to be within half an hour around 12:00.

Given the geographic location of the UK, the only sensible time zone is GMT (Greenwich Mean Time, i.e. UTC+0), that is to undo all the mess made after World War I and let Greenwich observe Greenwich Mean Time.

I am stating the above using only science as the reasoning why the UK should be on GMT - it's the time zone which is the closest to putting the clock noon on the real noon.

And how often does solar noon actually meet even the +/- 30 mins criteria? Right now where I am in Yorkshire, the solar Meridian will be at 13:02. If we were to get even close to the neatness of having the solar noon equal 12:00pm we'd be constantly changing the daylight savings. And even then it still wouldn't suit many people's working hours, after all a 9-5 shift reaches it's halfway point at 13:00.

I still see no point in all of this, we live in an increasingly expanding working / leisure time band. Mucking around with daylight savings is, well back to those deckchairs.

 

[nw1]

12:00 = noon = when the sun is at the highest is one of the first things we learn as a child. It is the basis of clock setting for centuries starting from the era of sundials, and the fact that a solar day varies in length in the year was only known when mechanical clocks were invented so 12:00 became the "mean solar noon" instead, that noon on a particular day may be slightly earlier or later but not too far off from 12:00.

The invention of railways triggered the need to standardise times, so the time of the whole country was standardised to have 12:00 as the mean solar noon at Greenwich, and later the world was divided into 24 time zones that the local mean noon was supposed to be within half an hour around 12:00.

Given the geographic location of the UK, the only sensible time zone is GMT (Greenwich Mean Time, i.e. UTC+0), that is to undo all the mess made after World War I and let Greenwich observe Greenwich Mean Time.

I am stating the above using only science as the reasoning why the UK should be on GMT - it's the time zone which is the closest to putting the clock noon on the real noon.

Except 12:00 is, for most people, neither the midpoint of the working day nor the midpoint of the waking day. It's fairly early in the working day, and very early in the waking day.

The former is around 13:00 on average, while the latter is as late as 15:00 or even 16:00.

 

[AM9]

Except 12:00 is, for most people, neither the midpoint of the working day nor the midpoint of the waking day. It's fairly early in the working day, and very early in the waking day.

The former is around 13:00 on average, while the latter is as late as 15:00 or even 16:00.

To be fair, the 'working day' is a societal construct somewhat shaped by commercial imperatives and in part defined in various laws. All three of those influences can be changed if the government of the day so decides. That change may also have geographical variations. The 'waking day' naturally aligns with human circadian rhythms which is also influenced by variations in the duration of daylight, so addressing the requirements of the working day would eventually take the majority of the working population with it.

 

[nw1]

The 'waking day' naturally aligns with human circadian rhythms which is also influenced by variations in the duration of daylight, so addressing the requirements of the working day would eventually take the majority of the working population with it.

That's true. In winter I often find myself waking early, in pitch darkness (around 0600) but feeling sleepy very early (2100 to 2200) which suggests that if I had to, I wouldn't have a problem getting up and going to work in the dark. In other words, my circadian rhythm aligns better with BST than it does with GMT.

That said I appreciate others' circadian rhythms are different and have different preferences as a result.

 

[miklcct]

To be fair, the 'working day' is a societal construct somewhat shaped by commercial imperatives and in part defined in various laws. All three of those influences can be changed if the government of the day so decides. That change may also have geographical variations. The 'waking day' naturally aligns with human circadian rhythms which is also influenced by variations in the duration of daylight, so addressing the requirements of the working day would eventually take the majority of the working population with it.

The working day also depends on the region as well. For example, in Xinjiang, the normal office hours are 2 hours behind Beijing as geographically Xinjiang is 2 hours west of Beijing, despite due to political reasons Beijing forces a single time zone for the whole of China.

It's clearly impractical to have the office hours out of sync of the sun.

Therefore, if UK is in the geographical time zone, I suggest the office hour should be 8 - 16, but on UTC+1, then it should be 9 - 17.

 

[AM9]

That's true. In winter I often find myself waking early, in pitch darkness (around 0600) but feeling sleepy very early (2100 to 2200) which suggests that if I had to, I wouldn't have a problem getting up and going to work in the dark. In other words, my circadian rhythm aligns better with BST than it does with GMT.

That said I appreciate others' circadian rhythms are different and have different preferences as a result.

So if there was a UK vote, then it is likely that Scotland/NI would be outvoted, and possibly some places north of Lancs/South & W. Yorks.

 

[miklcct]

So if there was a UK vote, then it is likely that Scotland/NI would be outvoted, and possibly some places north of Lancs/South & W. Yorks.

I think that Great Britain and Northern Ireland should have separate votes because Great Britain is in North-South shape that it's geographical correct to keep the whole island in a single time zone, while Northern Ireland is separated by the sea.

 

[AM9]

I think that Great Britain and Northern Ireland should have separate votes because Great Britain is in North-South shape that it's geographical correct to keep the whole island in a single time zone, while Northern Ireland is separated by the sea.

The furthest west point of NI is east of Scotland's most westerly point, St Kilda. The furthest west point of of Scotland's mainland is over 50km west of NI's most easterly point. Given that even England extende over 40km north of NI, the winter day length is hardly much of an issue there.

 

[Annetts key]

Actually the simplest thing would be to abolish official legal time in the U.K. and allow regional (local) time. Then each region can decide what time zone to use, what the official local legal time is, what the government opening/closing times are, what the local school start/end times are, etc.

So for example, then Plymouth could be different to London, which could be different to Aberdeen.

 

[Domh245]

Actually the simplest thing would be to abolish official legal time in the U.K. and allow regional (local) time. Then each region can decide what time zone to use, what the official local legal time is, what the government opening/closing times are, what the local school start/end times are, etc.

So for example, then Plymouth could be different to London, which could be different to Aberdeen.

That'd rather complicate timetabling of transport services, (supposedly!) the whole reason that time was standardised in the first place!

 

[Annetts key]

That'd rather complicate timetabling of transport services, (supposedly!) the whole reason that time was standardised in the first place!

Yeah, well aware of that (a famous clock in Bristol on the Corn Exchange has two second hands so it could show both London time and Bristol time - arm your favourite search engine with “corn exchange bristol clock” to find out more). But modern airlines manage to cope, so the argument would be, why can’t other transport industries?

Personally, I still prefer a single world wide standard clock, as outlined in my earlier post. As a shift worker, trying to align a clock to dawn, dusk, solar midday, whatever is all pointless, because it all varies continually throughout the year, as well as how far west/east/north/south you are.

And where communications are needed, we now have email, voicemail, text messages, plus lots of other other time delayed systems as well as “live” telephone, and video conferencing systems. And with flexible office hours, there is even less reason for a “everyone’s” work day to have common start/end times (not that everyone has ever done that in the first place anyway).

 

[DelayRepay]

Actually the simplest thing would be to abolish official legal time in the U.K. and allow regional (local) time. Then each region can decide what time zone to use, what the official local legal time is, what the government opening/closing times are, what the local school start/end times are, etc.

So for example, then Plymouth could be different to London, which could be different to Aberdeen.

I think that sounds anything but simple... It would make simple things like planning a rail journey between London and Plymouth more complicated. I think any benefits in terms of daylight saving would be far outweighed by all the problems this would cause.

 

[Annetts key]

benefits in terms of daylight saving

And exactly what are the benefits of daylight saving?

As others have pointed out, what the human made clock says, does not change the amount of daylight. So there is no more or less daylight under GMT, BST, BST+1 or any other time zone. There are no savings or gains overall. Maybe there were thought to be some benefits due to how the country and industry worked back when the idea came about. But for me, not anymore. The whole term is bull.

Dumping official legal time is simple in that it you remove the problem of trying to “get it right” for everyone. Because whatever you do nationally, there will be a significant number of people where it is not right for them. Instead devolve it to regions. Hence England, Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland can decide for themselves.

 

[Tetchytyke]

And exactly what are the benefits of daylight saving?

Daylight saving is in the summer, not the winter. The daylight saving is that in summer you get the hour's daylight at 9pm- when you're awake and possibly out doing social stuff- rather than at 2.30am- when you're not.

Today, at UTC+1 (daylight saving) sunrise here is 6.53am and sunset is 7.32pm. Without it both sunrise and sunset would be an hour earlier. Having that hour in the evening is of more use to more people. YMMV.

I'd stick with UTC+1 all year, tbh.

As for switching to a pure local time, that would also be a complete fiction- just a different one- as the solar noon is never at the same time twice. And there's also all the inevitable confusion with having a local timezone 20 minutes behind UTC.

As for doing away with timezones and just having the whole world run on UTC, that wouldn't change anything either- contracts of employment, etc, would still choose suitable local times, and you'd still have the argument as to what those times should be.

 

[AM9]

Daylight saving is in the summer, not the winter. The daylight saving is that in summer you get the hour's daylight at 9pm- when you're awake and possibly out doing social stuff- rather than at 2.30am- when you're not.

Today, at UTC+1 (daylight saving) sunrise here is 6.53am and sunset is 7.32pm. Without it both sunrise and sunset would be an hour earlier. Having that hour in the evening is of more use to more people. YMMV.

I'd stick with UTC+1 all year, tbh.

Precisely. For you, located in the IoM would mean a later sunrise, maybe similar to Newcastle or even Edinburgh in the depth of winter.

 

[nw1]

I think that Great Britain and Northern Ireland should have separate votes because Great Britain is in North-South shape that it's geographical correct to keep the whole island in a single time zone, while Northern Ireland is separated by the sea.

I would definitely agree that, due to its westerliness, NI should have the same timezone as the Republic, irrespective of what GB does.

Using GMT makes much more sense for NI than somewhere like SE England, due to the westerly longitude.

Not sure if the more militant unionists would kick up a stink though if that happened.

And exactly what are the benefits of daylight saving?

Being light at 7pm at the moment, and at 8pm in the second half of April?

Imagine how depressing it would be, in mid-September and not even at the equinox yet, if it started going dark at 6.30pm. It would feel like winter is already arriving.

As others have pointed out, what the human made clock says, does not change the amount of daylight. So there is no more or less daylight under GMT, BST, BST+1 or any other time zone. There are no savings or gains overall. Maybe there were thought to be some benefits due to how the country and industry worked back when the idea came about. But for me, not anymore. The whole term is bull.

Except summer time better aligns daylight with the hours when people want to be out and about doing things.

Dumping official legal time is simple in that it you remove the problem of trying to “get it right” for everyone. Because whatever you do nationally, there will be a significant number of people where it is not right for them. Instead devolve it to regions. Hence England, Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland can decide for themselves.

I certainly agree for different timezones for different parts of the UK. Perhaps England and Wales in one timezone, and Scotland, NI (and the Republic) in another? So the former stay on BST all year, while the latter switch back to GMT in the winter. With NI on the same timezone as both Scotland (UK) and the Republic, this might also lessen any potential political issues.

 

[Howardh]

From 1969 to 1971, an experiment to British Summer Time took plaace, the clocks went back by two hours for Winter, was very unpopluar, as a boy I would be traveling to school in the morning in complete darkness, in deep winter, daylight hours began around 9 am.
It was dangerous to travel, we were issued with reflective armbands by the school, and I can recall being very tired for most of the day. Children need natural sleep patterns for health, so do adults, but adults are more tolerant of sleep deprivation than the young.
Resist any call for changes to the clocks as the experiment in 1969, it was a truly miserable experience

That doesn't sound like "British Summer Time"?

Between 27 October 1968 and 31 October 1971 we had GMT+1 which meant British Summer Time all year.

I remember going to school in the dark in deepest winter, but as 9am passed the brigtness appeared and we went home in light at 4pm. With GMT football matches need floodlights after 4pm, but with GMT+1 that isn't/wasn't necessary.

So for a North England pupil, it was either a case of going to school in the dark in the morning and being light getting home (GMT+1), or vice-versa (GMT). The further north you go then both would be in the dark.

Think the only time the UK has ever had GMT+2 was during the second world war (?), and 1947 (?) but I stand to be corrected. Any reason why we had GMT+2 in winter during the war?