Would Scottish Independence Affect services to/from England?

[Butts]

What happens to scottish people who live in London, in the event of a "yes" vote?

You can keep the "tartan coconuts" we don't want them
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Is this thread beginning to descend into the realms of total nonsense ? Where have all these cross-border travel difficulties suddenly materialised from ? Have any official statements been made from either side of the border that might give rise to this sudden rise in mental creativity expressed in certain postings.

Do certain forum members want to achieve a Gibraltar : Spain border conflict scenario between England and Scotland ?

As an established member are you surprised

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

In Czechoslovakia, the rail routes were mostly built by the Austro-Hungarian Empire and don't easily map onto the modern states - they ran into today's Poland, Hungary and Italy as well, and were generally focussed on Vienna and Prague.

If you travel from Vienna to Prague today the km markers start at Wien Nord and increase all the way via Brno (KF Nordbahn) and Prague (kk Nördliche Staatsbahn) to Děčin (km 539) where the Bohemian-Saxon joint line started.
The lines were partitioned between the new sates in 1918.
The recent further split of Czech and Slovak republics just fragments the system further.

In Europe generally many cross-border services are worse than they used to be, with each country looking after its own, despite Schengen and no passport/customs checks.
eg no trains between Italy and Slovenia, and no day trains Venice-Vienna.

This thread in the international section tells some stories.
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=89863

 

[St Rollox]

Is this thread beginning to descend into the realms of total nonsense ? Where have all these cross-border travel difficulties suddenly materialised from ? Have any official statements been made from either side of the border that might give rise to this sudden rise in mental creativity expressed in certain postings.

Do certain forum members want to achieve a Gibraltar : Spain border conflict scenario between England and Scotland ?

I'm sure there's a lot of kidding going on.
At least i hope their kidding.

 

[cle]

This thread is ridiculous. I doubt folk will go for NO and it will hopefully shut the SNP sheep and nats up for a generation.

But either way, I doubt very much it would affect the railways. How they'd be carved up anyway I'm not sure, but NR (a London/MK-based organisation) would own the land, tracks etc - which under EU law would be legitimate ownership of assets, land and business in a fellow member country.

So Holyrood might not actually have too much of a say. Transport operation is devolved of course, but not ownership.

But it won't happen. Scots know what side their bread is buttered - Barnett and so on, and London money to extract, distribute and manage the damn oil.

London will continue to prop the whole nation up and present a face to the world of progress, optimism and growth. And the rest of the UK, our dirty little secret, can mooch on.

 

[Train Pilchard]

Quite ironic that the most agressive and dismissive posts are coming from the very people accusing Yes voters of being racist, bigotted, etc.

If Scotland votes Yes it is beyond me why anyone outside Scotland would be angry or want the new country to fail. If it was Wales and the people living in Wales opted to become independent I'd wish them all the best.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The recent further split of Czech and Slovak republics just fragments the system further.

In a known European context, you have chosen a most apt recent division of a country where matters can now be evaluated to see how matters are progressing.

 

[yorksrob]

In terms of train services, there might be fewer Anglo-Scottish services, but other than that, I can't really see things being much different. I suspect the Government of Scotland would quickly assume ownership of its infrastructure and decide how it wanted to run it relatively easily.

That said, if there is a chance of HS2 stretching to Scotland now, I predict it will all but disappear in the event of Scottish independence. There wouldn't be the strategic importance to justify the money, and Scotland would be one of several external markets competing for funding for better connections.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

In terms of train services, there might be fewer Anglo-Scottish services, but other than that, I can't really see things being much different. I suspect the Government of Scotland would quickly assume ownership of its infrastructure and decide how it wanted to run it relatively easily.

A referendum YES vote would not make Scotland independent.
A Treaty would have to be negotiated and parallel Acts of Parliament passed by both Westminster and Holyrood, covering all issues.
Nothing will happen quickly.

 

[yorksrob]

A referendum YES vote would not make Scotland independent.
A Treaty would have to be negotiated and parallel Acts of Parliament passed by both Westminster and Holyrood, covering all issues.
Nothing will happen quickly.

Well, quickly in constitutional terms.

 

[VauxhallandI]

Quite ironic that the most agressive and dismissive posts are coming from the very people accusing Yes voters of being racist, bigotted, etc.

If Scotland votes Yes it is beyond me why anyone outside Scotland would be angry or want the new country to fail. If it was Wales and the people living in Wales opted to become independent I'd wish them all the best.

I've noticed this too, if Scotland is such a drain to you then you should be happy if there is a YES vote.

Insecure bunch

 

[thenorthern]

If the situation with Wales it would be harder as I believe there are 8 rail crossings of the border many of which are run by local trains and run deep into the other country.

In Scotland however there is only 3 where 2 of them are inter-city and one of them is a local service which terminates at the next stop past the border.

 

[yorksrob]

If Scotland were to leave, Wales and Northern Ireland might reap a dividend in terms of intra-UK transport investment.

 

[ScottishIain]

If the situation with Wales it would be harder as I believe there are 8 rail crossings of the border many of which are run by local trains and run deep into the other country.

In Scotland however there is only 3 where 2 of them are inter-city and one of them is a local service which terminates at the next stop past the border.

Surely there are 3 inter-city? East Coast, Virgin and Cross Country. As well as the Carlisle 'local' one there's also the one that continues until Newcastle.

Sent from my GT-I8160 using Tapatalk 2

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

It's worth remembering that prior to 1923 the railways north and south were under separate ownership: the Caledonian, G&SW and North British in Scotland, LNWR, Midland and NER in England.
They developed a very good cross-border service and initiated the West Coast and East Coast joint rolling stock workings, becoming the WCML and ECML of today.
The Forth Bridge was originally 35% Scottish (NBR), with the English 65% made up of 35% from the NER/GNR and 30% from the Midland.

The difference was that the companies were not "national" in any sense.
In fact the Caledonian was largely financed from England and the LNWR was a significant shareholder.
The biggest influences were the private investors and industrialists in London, Liverpool and Glasgow.

I don't think that operationally separation need make much difference, but politically and financially it would with the two governments having different agendas.
The railway is also nominally largely in private hands and therefore is not entirely the plaything of governments.
A company like DB Schenker, for instance, is not going to be in the control of either government, whether independence comes or not.

 

[Cyberbeagle]

Just a reminder that before the EU there were indeed custom checks needed on trains going between the Republic and Northern Ireland, which was a key factor in many cross-border lines crossing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enterprise_(train_service)

 

[edwin_m]

Surely there are 3 inter-city? East Coast, Virgin and Cross Country. As well as the Carlisle 'local' one there's also the one that continues until Newcastle.

There are only two physical border crossings, ECML and WCML. The South Western line diverges from the WCML at Gretna Junction literally a few metres north of the border - in fact the crossover is in England! Signalling triva - for this reason Carlisle powerbox control area continues some way into Scotland, whereas on the ECML the Edinburgh signalling centre fringes with Tweedmouth at the border itself.

In terms of TOCs there is also Transpennine, and the Sleeper is likely to be spun off as a separate franchise from Scotrail.

 

[thenorthern]

Surely there are 3 inter-city? East Coast, Virgin and Cross Country. As well as the Carlisle 'local' one there's also the one that continues until Newcastle.

Sent from my GT-I8160 using Tapatalk 2

Good point, I was thinking though as the CrossCountry and the East Coast services use the same route to cross the border they counted as one.

 

[deltic]

To go back to the original question I would say history shows that as rail is generally a loss making operation and govts are generally reluctant to subsidise services which benefit non-nationals then services will probably be cut if Scotland gained independence.

Sleeper services would go as would cross border services on GSWL. Intercity services would probably be reduced with Cross-country not going beyond Newcastle. TPE services may be maintained as revenues from Manchester to Scotland are higher.

 

[43074]

This does beg the question of why some of the 158s didn't move to Central Trains (to swap for 156s) many years ago, if Scotland doesn't control the location of the ex-BR stock

This was actually a National Express plan because Central Trains were using 156s on long distance runs such as Liverpool to Stansted, whereas the Scotrail 158s were being used on more local services where they weren't utilising their higher speed capability on Edinburgh Suburban services. Both Train Companies wanted the swap to happen.

It got very close to happening, but the Scottish ministers blocked it because they didn't want to lose their superior 158s to 156s. 156402 was actually released from overhaul in early 2003 carrying a ScotRail base livery. I don't think it was the right decision to block it, but there we go.

 

[thenorthern]

Would an Enterprise style system operate?

 

[St Rollox]

Would an Enterprise style system operate?

Hope not.
Enterprise is not the greatest service in the world for a 100 mile journey between the island's two main cities.
Electrification of the line should happen sometime in the 22nd Century.

 

[RichmondCommu]

You would be more than welcome, if I could hold a referendum for rest of UK to leave London I would

Good luck if that happens.

 

[duncanp]

I am not so sure about cross border services being cut in the event of independence for Scotland.

For example, it would make no sense whatsoever to terminate services from Glasgow Central via Kilmarnock and Dumfries at Gretna rather than Carlisle. People from Ayrshire and Dumfriesshire will want to go to Carlisle for onward connections, and terminating services short will affect the viability of the entire route.

Look at the service which runs from Lille Flandres to Oostende and Antwerp. This is operated entirely by the SNCB even though it starts in France, and people use it to get to Lille for onward connections to Paris and other places in France, as well as Eurostar to London. This can be quicker than going via Brussels, and fewer people would use it if it terminated at the last station in Belgium. (Mouscron)

Going back to Scotland and England, a lot will depend on the number of people using the services. People in Scotland will need to go to England for business and pleasure (and vice versa) and cutting services would adversely affect the Scottish economy.

What might happen is that some of the longer distance services are terminated short of their current destinations. (eg Aberdeen to Penzance doesn't go beyond Birmingham, or services from London on the ECML terminate in Edinburgh, in favour of perhaps a clockface timetable to Aberdeen and Inverness)

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Going back to Scotland and England, a lot will depend on the number of people using the services. People in Scotland will need to go to England for business and pleasure (and vice versa) and cutting services would adversely affect the Scottish economy. What might happen is that some of the longer distance services are terminated short of their current destinations. (eg Aberdeen to Penzance doesn't go beyond Birmingham, or services from London on the ECML terminate in Edinburgh, in favour of perhaps a clockface timetable to Aberdeen and Inverness)

Has the matter of how cross-border road and rail travel in the land border area been any part whatsoever in the SNP pre-referendum published discussion documents, in order that this matter can be made known ?

Naturally, air travel is outside this particular equation.

 

[PaulLothian]

Has the matter of how cross-border road and rail travel in the land border area been any part whatsoever in the SNP pre-referendum published discussion documents, in order that this matter can be made known ?

Naturally, air travel is outside this particular equation.

Most of the anxiety about this appears to have been coming from the Unionist side, with dire prognostications ("We're doomed, Captain Mainwaring, doomed, ah tell ye...") based on the possibility that two civilised nations may not be able to work out a sensible solution. The Yes campaign tends to think such things are achievable!

Forty-five years ago, I was amazed to find, when staying with a French family in Lille, that none of us had to show any documentation when travelling into Belgium to visit relatives. One of their sons, when staying with us later, was even more surprised to find that he didn't need to show his passport at Gretna as we travelled to Scotland to go camping. I felt my misunderstanding was more reasonable, based on the fact that England and Scotland have been managing their borders quite well for 300 years.

"Project Fear" (an informal but telling nickname to the approach used within the Better Together movement) manifests itself in many ways!

 

[St Rollox]

Would be interesting to know how many of the anti Scottish brigade on here are UKIP supporters.

 

[khib70]

Would be interesting to know how many of the anti Scottish brigade on here are UKIP supporters.

It would indeed. Given the stick the Daily Mail rightly gets on here, it's surprising to find that one or two people still endorse its politics!

....and I'm still waiting for anyone to produce a shred of evidence that the SNP is "racist" or "bigoted"

 

[cuccir]

I'm a bit of a hibernophile so while I think Scotland ought to vote for independence, I'd be very sad to see it go!

I think that duncanp has probably come closest to being accurate: the most likely change would be the loss of some of the through services from the North of Scotland to England, with UK TOCs terminating their services at Edinburgh or Glasgow rather than Dundee/Aberdeen/Inverness. There's currently 7 a day each way which go north of the Central Belt, plus the Sleepers. I can see that dropping to 1 or 2.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

....and I'm still waiting for anyone to produce a shred of evidence that the SNP is "racist" or "bigoted"

In any case, I'd pretty much say that the English/Scottish 'native' population is pretty much homogenous- so racism isn't really a valid charge in any case.

Though in the event of a 'Yes' vote, the SNP may be wise to rename themselves, having achieved their primary aim!

I'm English, but I'm rather in favour of Scotland having a referendum on independence- simply because I've always felt bad on behalf of the Scots/Welsh whenever I've heard (mostly Americans*) refer to the whole land-mass as 'England'. It's time to shake off the remnants of colonialism.

*Though I did have to laugh when a girlfriend from New Jersey asked if she needed her passport with her for a romantic getaway to Conwy!

To get back on topic, the idea that a workable solution (for both the railways and all other cross-border issues) wouldn't be formed and legislated for by both territories is alarmist and unhelpful (and seems to be the primary tactic of the 'No' campaign!).

Though if it comes to it I'd expect Westminster to be the more difficult side in any negotiations- especially if many (any?) of the current lot are still in power.

 

[Stonesourscotty]

i know someone that asked if we needed passports to get to Yorkshire so it aint just Yanks.